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The more laws created, the more criminals there will be

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by JoeZen, May 13, 2013.

  1. JoeZen

    JoeZen Member

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    This quote by Lao Tzu has some truth in it. What do you think ?
     
  2. Daemon Sophic

    Daemon Sophic Avatar in flux

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    While it is a truism, it is a foolish one; especially if we all wish to live within a civilization (as we all do).
     
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  3. Gjallarhorn

    Gjallarhorn N'yog-Sothep

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    If catapults are outlawed, only outlaws will have catapults.

    But on the plus side, they're outlaws, so we can rough them up however we want. :D
     
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  4. JoeZen

    JoeZen Member

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    True, ..but are you able to abide by all the laws without breaking one ?..speeding ticket, parking ticket ?
     
    #4 JoeZen, May 13, 2013
    Last edited: May 13, 2013
  5. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I think it is worth distinguishing between a couple nuanced meanings of the word "criminal."

    In the weak sense, any breaking of the law is criminal. In the stronger sense, habitual disrespect/disregard and breaking of laws makes a criminal. It's the difference between an "oops" and "I have no respect for the laws of my society and will do what I want."

    So in the stronger sense of the word, no, I don't agree, as the logic doesn't follow. There will always be a percentage of people in any culture who have a complete lack of respect for their culture's laws and rules. Most are law-abiding citizens, and where they break the rules, it's more of an "oops" than a callous disregard for policy.
     
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  6. dust1n

    dust1n Zindīq

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    But the "crime" rates would remain the same.
     
  7. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Lao Tzu was an observant fellow. We see a proliferation of laws in so many areas, which result in:
    - Conflict between laws, eg, MI real estate agent requirements to divulge info which they're required to keep confidential, real estate zoning laws & federal fair housing laws, health code laws vs fire safety laws.
    - Building codes which leave much up to the discretion of the official.
    - Complexity which makes compliance costly, eg, grass roots political campaign laws
    - Tax code which requires expert advice, but even then is probabilistic in application.
    Are you in government, & want to harass some political group? You can always find some violation in something they do. Want to convict someone of a crime? You can always get them on some related violation, eg, Al Capone on tax evasion or Martha Stewart on perjury, none of which were the crimes the government pursued. Want to arrest someone for driving while black or young? Follow'm, & they'll commit some violation.
     
  8. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Well...sure, it's true. Think of the inverse...

    In a land with NO laws, there'll be NO criminals.

    That is not the same as saying a land with less laws is more desireable, which I suspect is what he meant.
     
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  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Having personally known Lao Tzu, I know that meant that government will find mischief in a needless proliferation of laws.
    Certainly, to have no laws would be terrible. There is a happy medium between the extremes.
     
    #9 Revoltingest, May 13, 2013
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
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  10. Wirey

    Wirey Fartist

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    I obey no laws. Except physics. Stairs hurt.
     
  11. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    So you're part of the Big Oil conspiracy, eh?
    Physical laws keep fuel efficiency way below 100%.
    They should be repealed!
     
  12. Wirey

    Wirey Fartist

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    That's why I do electrical. Transformers, buddy, 99% + efficiency.
     
  13. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    That's thinking small.
    Why not 110% efficiency?
     
  14. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    One thing about living in a diverse society is that we all have to learn how to at least tolerate others. Laws help make that possible. Anarchy just creates chaos.

    My son, who Asperger's, bipolar, and ADHD does not do well without any structure. He needs structure in order to succeed. The same with a society, we all need some kind of structure in our lives.
    Not too much structure, mind you, there are some laws that are totally ridiculous or were fine 100 years ago but don't fit into today's society but are still on the books. :)
     
  15. Sha'irullah

    Sha'irullah رسول الآلهة

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    By default this is indeed true as we are incapable of living by rules. Our human error is always tested when we abide by governing laws
     
  16. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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  17. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    My take on the matter (which is largely due to having read the Tao Te Ching, btw) is that law isn't useful in making a society better in any significant way.

    Ultimately, what makes a society better is an increase in good will and cooperation among its citizens. Laws are a very ill fit indeed for such a goal, because they coerce people instead of captivating them. To a significant extent they do in fact create problems because they ensure certain advantages who those who know or learn how to take unfair advantage of them.

    As the controversies about matters such as gun control, drug use, immigration and abortion and marriage rights show, there is definitely a downside in having legislation in place before actual agreement and mutual understanding is reached. Unfortunately, there is also an odd tendency to think of legislation as some sort of weapon. That is certain to backfire.

    In a better society, laws would be very temporary and largely redundant, little more than a formality.
     
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  18. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Very true all dat!
     
  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    You know, Revoltingest, sometimes I get very worried about the trends that this relationship of ours take.

    Maybe if we talk it over lunch? Or something?
     
  20. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    I got a giggle from some of those. This one in particular: Nobody is allowed to ride a bicycle in a swimming pool.

    Makes me wonder how that ever got to be a law in the first place. I keep thinking that someone must have done and either drowned or almost drowned.
     
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