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The Morality Of God's Grand Design

Skwim

Veteran Member
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,

"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.

God's passion is God's glory
The world is not all about you but making much of God

Is it moral? yes
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.
I've mentioned it briefly in the previous threads; Based on the parameters provided, I think it's impossible to objectively judge morality from our perspective here as created beings.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
The
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.
The Bible does not teach that God is omniscient. God cannot know what hasn´t occurred. He is perfectly prepared in every possible way to respond to what occurs.

It is omnipotence, not omniscience, that allows God to bring His will about.

God DID NOT create evil, nor does he compromise free will in any fashion.

We are not playing out step for step, word for word, a script God saw a trillion years before we were born.
 
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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Predators are among the keystone species on our planet. Without such animals entire forests would be wiped out. Therefore life on Earth is a food chain based on savage violence in order to survive. If life must exist this way, and it does, then what does that say about the morality of the God that made life on Earth. I thought life was to be a precious gift according to the notion of a benevolent God.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
God's passion is God's glory
Yeah, he is pretty passionate about people heaping praise, adoration, and worship on himself.

The world is not all about you but making much of God
I'll go along with "The world is not all about you," but I fail to see the world making much of God, I assume you're talking about the god of Abraham.

Is it moral? yes
Ooo! Now that's scary.


.
I've mentioned it briefly in the previous threads; Based on the parameters provided, I think it's impossible to objectively judge morality from our perspective here as created beings.
That's too bad, because actually it isn't at all difficult.



The
The Bible does not teach that God is omniscient.
Don't know about that, but a lot of Christians believe it's so. Like 91% of the Protestants.


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He is perfectly prepared in every possible way to respond to what occurs.
That's nice. Just too bad he can't respond to some of the struggling and suffering that occurs throughout the world.

It is omnipotence, not omniscience, that allows God to bring His will about.
Irrelevant, but okay.

God DID NOT create evil,
It isn't created, past tense, but creates, present tense.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. It's an on-going thing with him.


nor does he compromise free will in any fashion.
Yup. Ya can't compromise that which doesn't exist.

.
 
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Nanoha

New Member
It isn't created, past tense, but creates, present tense.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. It's an on-going thing with him.

.
Isaiah 45:7 isn't talking about moral evil; that doesn't make sense with the parallel structure of the verse. The Hebrew רַע (tr. as 'evil' in the KJV) means calamity, distress, etc.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Isaiah 45:7 isn't talking about moral evil; that doesn't make sense with the parallel structure of the verse. The Hebrew רַע (tr. as 'evil' in the KJV) means calamity, distress, etc.
Not according to Strong's. רָעַ (ra`) the Hebrew word in question, is given the following meanings. Note that in all cases the primary meaning is "evil."

      1. masculine noun
  1. evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
    1. evil, distress, adversity

    2. evil, injury, wrong

    3. evil (ethical)

      feminine noun
  2. evil, misery, distress, injury
    1. evil, misery, distress

    2. evil, injury, wrong

    3. evil (ethical)
Besides, the scholars who translated the Bible used those English words that best expressed the meaning found in the source material. If they felt the proper translation was actually calamity, or distress, why use the word "evil"? They wouldn't, which means "evil" was what was meant in the source material.
And, "evil" is by far the most popular translation of the Hebrew word. Four times more so than the next most popular word, "disaster(s)." So it isn't just the KJV that believes "evil" is the proper word.

.
 
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Nanoha

New Member
Not according to Strong's.
What Strong's says doesn't matter much; it's just a concordance, not a lexicon. It's specifically based on the translation of the KJV, which is inaccurate here. The New Oxford Annotated Bible (based on the NRSV) reads "I make weal and create woe."
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Feel free to explain it. Thank you.

Just to note. I wrote a fairly comprehensive answer, but because it was uncomplimentary toward the Christian god and his followers I believe it would have violated one of RF's rules. So I've decided to pull it.

Perhaps I'll address your request later on.

.

.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The Bible does not teach that God is omniscient. God cannot know what hasn´t occurred. He is perfectly prepared in every possible way to respond to what occurs.

Actually Isaiah might disagree with you there....God does have the ability to see into the future and to predict what will happen with accuracy. Prophesy is actually history written in advance.

Isaiah 46:10-11....
"From the beginning I foretell the outcome,

And from long ago the things that have not yet been done.


I say, ‘My decision will stand,

And I will do whatever I please.’


11 I am calling a bird of prey from the sunrise,

From a distant land the man to carry out my decision.


I have spoken, and I will bring it about.


I have purposed it, and I will also carry it out."

It is true that God has only 'acted' once in the Bible record.....and that was in bring about creation in the first place.
Every other action after that has been a response to the actions of others, whether human or angel. Those in both realms rebelled against him in the beginning of human existence. He has been reacting to their actions ever since, whilst keeping his original purpose on track....and preserving the precious gift of free will.

It is omnipotence, not omniscience, that allows God to bring His will about.

There is no doubting God's power but he uses it in accord with his omniscience. He knows when to bring things about in order to keep control of what is taking place. e.g. He foretold about Cyrus liberating his people from Babylonian captivity hundreds of years before he was even born. Israel had not even been taken in to captivity when he foretold this deliverer.

God DID NOT create evil, nor does he compromise free will in any fashion.

Evil exists as an equal opposite of good. God created everything in perfect balance, but the one thing he was going to withhold from humankind was a "knowledge of evil" whilst seeing to it that his children experienced only good things. It was their choice to know about it, and thereafter to experience it....and we have been suffering the consequences ever since. A knowledge of evil fueled by sin became an evil act within just one generation when Cain jealously murdered his more righteous brother. The bloodshed has never stopped and evil has continued to increase in the world ever since.

We are not playing out step for step, word for word, a script God saw a trillion years before we were born.

No we are not.....we are doing our own dance to our own music, with lyrics we wrote ourselves....and wondering why nothing makes us happy. :(

God is searching for the ones who want to dance to his music and to sing his lyrics....as our rightful Sovereign, no one has more right to demand obedience from us than he does.....but he will not force it....it must be given willingly out of a good and appreciative heart.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Just to note. I wrote a fairly comprehensive answer, but because it was uncomplimentary toward the Christian god and his followers I believe it would have violated one of RF's rules. So I've decided to pull it.

Perhaps I'll address your request later on.

.

.
OK, thanks anyway.
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
Theists claim that their morality can only be derived from their god. If their morality is god's morality, then this quote sums it up perfectly:

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

Blaise Pascal
 

syo

Well-Known Member
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.
Who can understand the christian God??? :confused:

And there are people whose lives right now are hellish. :mad:
 
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

Blaise Pascal

Heuristic: anti-theistic quotes that predate the French Revolution are generally either made up, misrepresented or falsely attributed.

(tbh anti-theists are generally terrible at anything to do with the real world history of religion)

The actual quote was:

One never does evil so fully and gaily, as when one does it through a false principle of conscience.

As this includes religious as well as non-religious ideologies and beliefs it's clearly more insightful too.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
.


In a nutshell: God is omniscient,
"The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia signifying knowledge. When we say that God is omniscient it means that He has perfect knowledge of all things. He does not have to learn anything and He has not forgotten anything. God does not have to reason things out, find out things, or learn them gradually. He knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen. God also knows every potential thing that might happen. God even knows those things that humankind has yet to discover. This knowledge is absolute and unacquired. The omniscience of God means that He has perfect knowledge, perfect understanding, and perfect wisdom as to how to apply the knowledge."
source

So even before god created the world, he knew he would populate it with creatures, some of which he would send to heaven forever, and others he would send to hell forever. And, he knew exactly which individual creature he'd send where. He even decided to create evil so as to help some of them more easily achieve hell. And along the way to their destinations god made sure some would encounter great moments of joy, and others, great moments of suffering.


Question: Would you do the same to a litter of puppies?

Bigger Question: Is god's design in any way moral?

.
There is nothing moral about it, assuming the god character was was responsible for creation.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The

The Bible does not teach that God is omniscient. God cannot know what hasn´t occurred. He is perfectly prepared in every possible way to respond to what occurs.

It is omnipotence, not omniscience, that allows God to bring His will about.

God DID NOT create evil, nor does he compromise free will in any fashion.

We are not playing out step for step, word for word, a script God saw a trillion years before we were born.

Omniscience
Isaiah 46:9-10
Psalm 147:4-5
Job 37:16
Hebrews 4:13
1 John 3:20
There is more

Evil
Isaiah 45:7
 

Phaedrus

Active Member
Heuristic: anti-theistic quotes that predate the French Revolution are generally either made up, misrepresented or falsely attributed.

(tbh anti-theists are generally terrible at anything to do with the real world history of religion)

The actual quote was:

One never does evil so fully and gaily, as when one does it through a false principle of conscience.

As this includes religious as well as non-religious ideologies and beliefs it's clearly more insightful too.

It is not particularly a stretch when most theists consider god to be their conscience.
 
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