@Deeje said “evolutionary scientists”....and they don’t like it. “That’s not the same topic”, is always their recourse.
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The Miracle of Water.
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
No, it is logic, at least to acknowledge an Intelligence behind the information governing all things.
And then, we say “Let’s figure it out.”
Recognizing an Intelligence behind the universe, do you think that stifles curiosity about how things work? If so, that’s simply naïve.
Believing in a Higher Intelligence didn’t stop scientists from searching for answers, men like Boyle, or Newton, or Kepler, or Bacon, etc, etc.
It actually gave them added impetus to discover not only the how and when (of things), but also the why....the purpose connecting the object to other objects, and the interactions between them.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You can guess all you like....but all human actions have consequences.
All our actions are precipitated by thoughts that come from our mind. What we feed our mind becomes what we base our beliefs on. Evolutionary science is not based on facts...it is based on beliefs......justified beliefs, which is exactly what believers in an Intelligent Designer have too.
A science degree will not make science "fiction" into science "fact". As far as evolution is concerned, the "facts" are non-existent. They are manufactured and presented as facts when the plain truth of it is that it is speculation offered as suggestion. We all know the power of suggestion, especially when the one making the suggestion is well educated and is virtually telling their audience that anyone who fails to accept evolution as fact, is a moron.
If you have the courage of your convictions then it will be seen when the boom is lowered. I am expecting it to be sooner, rather than later....look around you.....the world is falling apart.
If the future is not in God's hands, then we are all doomed to suffer the results of man's educated stupidity. What a happy future you must have to look forward to.....
Your accusation at the entire scientific community in the fields of biology, genetics, paleontology, etc, that they don't know what they are talking about AND even that they "manufacture" the evidence, is noted.
To bad that the only foundation your provided for these extreme accusations, are just your faith based beliefs, coupled with emotional reasoning.
On those grounds, I reject your fallacious nonsense.
Whenever you actually have something real and tangeable to discuss, I'm here for you.
Until then, why bother? You got literally nothing.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
You seem to think that water "happened" for no apparent reason. It exists because the materials needed to construct it were put in place by someone who is the greatest scientist in existence.
How much water is on this planet? How much of it is consumable by land dwellers? Does precipitation just magically take water from the ocean into the clouds, minus the salt, and then deposit fresh water into lakes and rivers for creatures to drink? Is that just a convenient accident? Wouldn't evolution design creatures that could exist by consuming salty water?
Who created the building blocks that make matter into all we see? What would life be like if we had no senses to discern the world around us? No sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell...? Why does nature have to be beautiful to sustain life? How is beauty determined?
Are you really that blind? Do you not go deeper that the surface?
Building codes exist in everything living. DNA is a code that transfers information from one living being into the creation of another...perfectly replicating a copy of its 'parents'. Clearly defined creatures breed only their own kind because they are programmed to do so. Just a fluke?
How many computer programs do you know of that needed no programmer? How many programmers do you know of who are unintelligent?
So we have to ask....is science itself into "poofing" now? All these things just popped up out of nowhere...for no apparent reason to become all that we see in the natural world? Seriously???
Wow @ the combo's.
Argument from ignorance.
Argument from incredulity.
Teleological fallacy.
Loaded questions.
Invalid analogies.
Projection.
Did I miss any?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
How does assuming that "some intelligence did it", influence the process of "let's figure it out"?
Honest question.
Does it change the methods of research? Does it change the tooling? Does it change experiments?
In what way, specifically, does it change any of this?
And curiously, what they discovered every single time, were natural processes and no trace of anything intelligent.
So, remind us what Newton found to be the "purpose" of gravity?
And how did he conclude it?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I put him in the "realm of fantasy" because there is no evidence for "his" existence. He's in the same place where I put unicorns and pixies and all the other thousands of gods human beings have worshiped throughout history.
But I've got an open mind and would be amenable to some good evidence. Got any?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Yes, learn something:OK....my questions would be....
Who created chemistry? Where do the principles or laws of chemistry that are known to science, originate?
Where do electric charges come from? Why is there polarity?
Why are there hydrogen bonds? Ionic bonds? Covalent bonds?
Who created intermolecular forces? Proteins? Nulceic acid?
Who created the molecules that make up everything on this planet? Did they just appear out of nowhere?
Where did matter come from?
Who created the attraction necessary for anything to bond? Who created the laws of attraction? Did they too just come out of nowhere?
If the "the hydrogen must be attached to a strongly electronegative heteroatom," then who determined that ?
Those who study the various branches of science, if they want to retain any credibility, must of necessity ignore the most basic question of life.....who created what science studies?
You know how mechanisms work but not who invented them.
Perhaps you need "learn something"?
OpenStax
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
There is only one definition. You don't get to have your own version of logic. There is just one version.
What is your definition of nothing?
And if nothing comes from nothing, then you need to explain where your god came from.
Yeah, because abiogenesis doesn't fall within an evolutionary scientist's field of expertise. It would be like asking an astrophysicist to explain to you how the brain works.
That's your opinion. Other people think other things are interesting and study them. Good thing we all have different interests.
The answers to "why this particular planet can host such an amazing assortment of life" can be found in science, much of it within evolutionary science.
The egg.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Go ahead and demonstrate that the god you worship is the cause of the universe, and everyone will have to agree with you, because that is what the evidence would indicate.You'd become rich and famous if you did. The problem is, nobody has managed to do this yet, in all this time.
First you need to demonstrate that there is a god with an intelligent mind, before you start assigning all kinds of properties to said god (which you'd also have to demonstrate).
Assertions. No evidence.
More assertions. No evidence.Ignore him if you like, but he will make himself known to the sceptics soon enough.....that is what he promises.....and I believe him. He has plans for this planet and indeed, probably the whole universe, which will not be undone by mere humans who think that they are more intelligent than they really are. He will have to step in soon, otherwise we will have no planet to live on.....we will have completely trashed the only home we have....such is the genius of man.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Well, given that you're still repeating falsehoods that you've been corrected on umpteen different times, I'm gonna go with education and the experts in the relevant fields of science, while you can go with your own style of "logic" that gets you no where near demonstrating the veracity of your claims. In fact, your claims don't even live up to your own style of logic (E.g. "Nothing comes from nothing, except for the god I worship").How about we take Logic 101.....and see that without the right materials, and a very detailed plan, you cannot construct anything. Detailing how a building is put together does not explain where the materials originated and what processes were needed to provide them in the right quantity and measure. It requires an architect and an engineer and a construction crew before the materials are even ordered and delivered.
Water is one very vital component to life on this beautiful blue planet. You haven't even touched on how it came to be here in such abundance in the first place, when it is clearly missing in any quantity from every other planet in our solar system. And why it has such amazing properties, compared to other liquids.
Educated speculation about these things is about all you really have. It's what satisfies unspiritual minds in an "either/or kind of mindset. If you think that there can't possibly be an all powerful Creator, then you will find a way to eliminate any need for him. But pretending that he's not there, doesn't make him go away.
I see the Creator as the one who designed it all and put all the mechanisms in place for self perpetuation to take care of all life here......as long as "intelligent" lifeforms didn't mess it up.
Humans, in their need to get rid of the 'big policeman in the sky' (don't like being told what to do or to accept responsibility for their selfish actions) have successfully explained away everything that made them responsible to the Creator as tenants of his property. What does a Landlord do if someone trashes his property and breaks their tenancy agreement? You know.....eviction is the next step, followed by an extensive repair job and offering a beautifully renovated place to new tenants....carefully selected ones, so that it doesn't happen again.
This is basic stuff IMO....yet fobbed off in favor of explanations that ignore these very basic precepts. A child could understand this. It doesn't require a university degree. Those with degrees are often the cause of many of the problems we face as humans on this planet, which is now struggling for breath. How will science undo all the damage I wonder? No one is putting up their hand to fix any of it......is it even fixable now?
Time will tell, I guess.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Do tell, what are the "original kinds?"How do you know it wasn't? The "evidence" for this God is every bit as convincing as the "evidence" upon which science relies to furnish its own "beliefs". You can no more prove that evolution ever took place than I can produce evidence for my Creator.
Yes all brilliant designed for marine life, as the Bible says.
Perhaps you'd like to show me the evidence for whale evolution......?
You mean like something in nature that can kill you? What about the things produced by science that can kill you? I am trying to think of something that science created that is beautiful....? I can think of many things that are deadly.....would you like a list?
How many mutations are beneficial to living things? How many beneficial mutations would you need to explain all the diversity of all living things on earth? When do you run out of statistics?
Google beneficial mutations in humans and see how many come up.....and how earth shattering these mutations actually are in the big scheme of things. Just because things can adapt and change overtime is not proof for organic evolution. All living things remain just varieties of their original "kind". The Creator loves variety as we can plainly see.
You *assume* that I don't know.....I can assure you that I do know. I have a close and personal relationship with my Creator......so I have nothing to figure out because he has explained it all and my own logic is attracted to the simplicity of the whole equation. You have no foundation to your beliefs.....because there is no foundation that is built on anything solid.
You have a magnificent edifice supported by matchsticks. That is how I see evolution....lots of wishful thinking but no substantive evidence.....what I see is all smoke and mirrors....wishful thinking, assumption, assertions and educated guessing, followed by loads of suggestion.....but no real proof. Your "evidence" requires interpretation which is invariably done by those who are already convinced that evolution is true and will adjust their interpretation accordingly. Not surprising is it?
This should be super easy for you to answer.
It is not logic. How can something with no evidence demonstrating its existence be the logical answer to anything? It is your desire and not only that, it is your desire that it is a specific intelligence. One that you have no evidence to demonstrate to others.
For a realistic Christian that has not buried themselves in the deification of their own interpretation or the deification of church doctrine, but JW's are the example of how it stifles curiosity. You deny curiosity in obeisance to your churches doctrine. You have your answer--the JW god did it. Your entire presence here regarding science is a denial and stifling of curiosity.
Of course not, but they did not deify church doctrine either.
Most early European scientists were Christian or raised Christian. They often made discoveries that were in defiance to the biblical claims. Some set out to find the evidence in support of biblical claims and ended up showing that the claims were deficient, often incorrect when considered as literal facts.
The message I get from you is deny curiosity. JW's have the truth and don't need to know anything else. You are not unique. Most fundys fear knowledge, since it challenges their deification of scripture and church doctrine.
Exactly! But you think things that are complex and interact, arose by chance. How is that logical?
An honest evaluation of empirical evidence always reveals intelligence behind integrated complexity.
That's logic.
All those words, and you presented no rebuttal. In fact, you twisted the post.....
These men of science believed in a Higher Power; that's the point. Their God was, Zeus? No....the God of the Bible. They loved the Bible. And yet, they accomplished so much!
"Church doctrine" enters into no aspect of our support for God's Creatorship. Only Scripture.
In fact, JW's are at odds with most of mainstream church dogma.
The message you get, is that we "deny curiosity"? Huh?
Now, this is wrong! Were these guys, atheists, afterwards?
No way.
They realized what was wrong, was not the Scriptures, but the Church's understanding of Scripture.
Please, be more accurate.
The realized that scripture is not God and that some of it is just stories written by men to try and understand their relationship to God and the universe.
Your church has no greater understanding of scripture than any other church. Just different.
These are just your ideas and feelings. Not facts.
Your world is your church doctrine. You do as it says or you are forced out. There is no free will there.
The message I get from any defense of fundamentalism or deviations of it is deny curiosity.
I notice that you skipped over the fact that your claims of logic fall flat.
Can you explain how something that has no objective evidence is a logical choice? How is a specific choice with no objective evidence more logical than any other choice with no objective evidence?
Evidence.
No it does not. It is not logic. It is desire for a specific outcome based on belief. That is just doctrine talking. Not logic or evidence.
I did not twist anything.
You seem to think that just because scientists have degrees and education that they can't be misled......how misled have they been in the past? How many fraudulent claims have been made and exposed in an attempt to make evolution more credible? If you have to resort to fraud, then what does that tell you? If the "evidence" was irrefutable, then we wouldn't be having this debate.
As the scientist here keep telling me..."there are no "proofs" in science. If you can't "prove" what you believe, then how are you in a better position than believers in an Intelligent Designer? You have a belief system, just like we do. You have a theory that you cannot prove.....you can suggest it, but you have no real evidence....just scientists' interpretation of what they are looking at. We believers can look at that very same evidence and come to a completely different conclusion. Since neither of us has "proof", we each make our choices for our own reasons.
You don't have to be an uneducated moron to believe in God.
The accusations are not extreme at all. Science itself depends on faith and belief. You just substitute widely held science fiction for science fact. Is there safety in numbers? Does consensus always support the truth?
If science is your religion, then religious fervor will be demonstrated in its defence.....look at the replies on threads like this.
When you see post after post of defence that often sinks into personal insults about Bible believers' educational status or their level of intelligence.....what are you all afraid of? That others will see the holes in science's argument at the most basic level? You don't seem to understand that you are "believers" just like we are. You are as "indoctrinated" as you believe we are. Shocking, isn't it?
On the same grounds I reject science's fallacious nonsense.
Ditto.
Well, truth be known....science has "nothing" substantive either.
They assert lots of things but they have no proof for any of it. Why then present assertion as fact? That is dishonest.
So you are welcome to your beliefs.....and I will hang on to mine....the evidence for Intelligent Design is overwhelming to me.
A Designer does not fit into your belief system. One of us is dead wrong.......but which?
Time will tell I guess.