The Miracle of Water.

[Wandering Monk]

OK....my questions would be....

Who created chemistry? Where do the principles or laws of chemistry that are known to science, originate?

Where do electric charges come from? Why is there polarity?

Why are there hydrogen bonds? Ionic bonds? Covalent bonds?

Who created intermolecular forces? Proteins? Nulceic acid?

Who created the molecules that make up everything on this planet? Did they just appear out of nowhere?
Where did matter come from?

Who created the attraction necessary for anything to bond? Who created the laws of attraction? Did they too just come out of nowhere?

If the "the hydrogen must be attached to a strongly electronegative heteroatom," then who determined that ?

Those who study the various branches of science, if they want to retain any credibility, must of necessity ignore the most basic question of life.....who created what science studies?
You know how mechanisms work but not who invented them.

Perhaps you need "learn something"?

What makes you believe someone created all this? Why can't these just be inherent properties of the universe? Eventually your argument will devolve into one of incredulity, a logical fallacy.

 

[sealchan]

Nature clearly demonstrates genius....rationally, genius is the result of intelligence....intelligence needs a mind....and a mind can design things that are ingenious. The mind has to have a vehicle...why can't that vehicle be God?

What we need to get rid of, is the notion that God is some kind of big wizard in the sky, proofing things into existence. This is not the way the Bible portrays him at all.

Because he is a powerful living lifeform who is outside of an earthbound human's experience, we tend to want to place him in the realm of fantasy, but what if all we need to do is understand that such a powerful Creator exists and that we are a product of his creative abilities? If he is the all powerful Creator of all things, and creation is an important project for him, then he has the right to tell us how to live the life he's given us.....doesn't he? We have a purpose here in the big scheme of things.

Can we imagine his reaction when confronting puny humans who think that they are too intelligent to believe in him, and who think that they can manage their life here without him? Look at how we are mismanaging our lives here and how we are polluting and destroying everything on this planet!

Can we see, as the Bible indicates, that God has stepped out of the picture to allow these "grasshoppers" to prove to themselves how much they need him? (Isaiah 40:22) How intelligent are we really?

The big picture is pretty amazing when you understand it.

There is a view of the intelligence found in natural systems that Dennett speaks about when he says that natural systems can achieve competence without comprehension. I saw him talk about that in a video...will try to find it.

The point is that in nature there is a kind of intelligence very different from our common sense understanding of intelligence and it is a sort of unintelligent intelligence. Nature gains competence through repeated, aimless experience until something persistent shakes out. But that persistent thing, so long as it is dumbly copied, does not lose its value, its persistence. And this requires no intelligence in the way of being able to anticipate the outcome of one's actions. But the subtlety of such "natural discoveries" is such that we might be endlessly mystified as to the creator of such a thing.

In Conway's Game of Life one can have a similar experience with the little crawler that often emerges in the simulation. As such we might see that the Universe as a whole has this wonderful balance between order and chaos such that it gives rise to complex, adaptive persistence. Whether we can make of itself as some sort of sign of God is perhaps going to be a subjective determination. But being that we are such persistent entities ourselves we may be hopelessly and joyfully enamored of the source of our own existence.

 

[ecco]

LOL....no, water and all the molecules that make up matter in its many forms, just figured it out for themselves. They just thought it would a good idea to get together and have a creation party
....what clever little molecules...and they don't even have a brain.

You are showing your ignorance of 10th-grade chemistry.

 

[ecco]

Can we imagine his reaction when confronting puny humans who think that they are too intelligent to believe in him

Can we imagine the reactions of all the thousands of gods that man worships/has worshiped when confronted by puny humans who no longer believe in them or believe in some of the other gods?

Remember, Deeje, most of the people on this earth do not, and have never, believed in your version of god.

 

[ecco]

OK....my questions would be....

Who created chemistry? Where do the principles or laws of chemistry that are known to science, originate?

Where do electric charges come from? Why is there polarity?

Why are there hydrogen bonds? Ionic bonds? Covalent bonds?

Who created intermolecular forces? Proteins? Nulceic acid?

Who created the molecules that make up everything on this planet? Did they just appear out of nowhere?
Where did matter come from?

Who created the attraction necessary for anything to bond? Who created the laws of attraction? Did they too just come out of nowhere?

If the "the hydrogen must be attached to a strongly electronegative heteroatom," then who determined that ?

Those who study the various branches of science, if they want to retain any credibility, must of necessity ignore the most basic question of life.....who created what science studies?
You know how mechanisms work but not who invented them.

Perhaps you need "learn something"?

No need to study physics. The answer is always GodDidIt.
No need to study chemistry. The answer is always GodDidIt.
No need to study astronomy. The answer is always GodDidIt.
No need to study medicine. The answer is always GodDidIt.
No need to study why locusts eat all the crops. The answer is always GodDidIt.
No need to study how hurricanes form and where they will go. The answer is always GodDidIt.

Yeah. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Dr. GS Hurd]

I am very surprised that this topic could be still generating comment. But, then I note I am commenting.

For the origin of Hydrogen, see;
NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe: Cosmology

Especially their section Nucleosynthesis in the Early Universe.

For the origin of Oxygen, see;
Clayton, D.D., 2008. Fred Hoyle, primary nucleosynthesis and radioactivity. New Astronomy Reviews, 52(7-10), pp.360-363.

Clayton reviews the various contributions to stellar nucleosynthesis, including a brief mention of the Nobel Prize winning; Hoyle, F., 1946. The synthesis of the elements from hydrogen. MNRAS 106, 343–383.

For the origin of water on Earth, see;
Taylor, G.J., 2018. The Complicated Origin of Earth's Water. Planetary Science Research Discoveries Report.

A popularized version is; "Where did Earth's water come from?"

A complicated professional version is;
Sun, W., Yoshino, T., Sakamoto, N. and Yurimoto, H., 2015. Hydrogen self‐diffusivity in single crystal ringwoodite: Implications for water content and distribution in the mantle transition zone. Geophysical Research Letters, 42(16), pp.6582-6589. (And references).

For the chemistry of water, take first year chemistry, and second year organic chemistry. For the biochemistry of water, take second year biochemistry.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Nature clearly demonstrates genius....rationally, genius is the result of intelligence....intelligence needs a mind....and a mind can design things that are ingenious. The mind has to have a vehicle...why can't that vehicle be God?

Why can't it be pixies? Or leprechauns? Why must there be such a mind at all, again?
In this paragraph above, you are just asserting that "it must be so".

I can just assert "it must not be so" then I guess.

Because he is a powerful living lifeform who is outside of an earthbound human's experience, we tend to want to place him in the realm of fantasy, but what if all we need to do is understand that such a powerful Creator exists and that we are a product of his creative abilities?

Or what if we didn't assume such beings exist for no particular reason at all, aside of some sort of argument from incredulity?

If he is the all powerful Creator of all things, and creation is an important project for him, then he has the right to tell us how to live the life he's given us.....doesn't he?

We have a purpose here in the big scheme of things.

Can we imagine his reaction when confronting puny humans who think that they are too intelligent to believe in him, and who think that they can manage their life here without him? Look at how we are mismanaging our lives here and how we are polluting and destroying everything on this planet!

Can we see, as the Bible indicates, that God has stepped out of the picture to allow these "grasshoppers" to prove to themselves how much they need him? (Isaiah 40:22) How intelligent are we really?

The big picture is pretty amazing when you understand it.

Try establishing any of this in another way then "i believe it"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

OK....my questions would be....

Who created chemistry? Where do the principles or laws of chemistry that are known to science, originate?

Where do electric charges come from? Why is there polarity?

Why are there hydrogen bonds? Ionic bonds? Covalent bonds?

Who created intermolecular forces? Proteins? Nulceic acid?

Who created the molecules that make up everything on this planet? Did they just appear out of nowhere?
Where did matter come from?

Who created the attraction necessary for anything to bond? Who created the laws of attraction? Did they too just come out of nowhere?

If the "the hydrogen must be attached to a strongly electronegative heteroatom," then who determined that ?

Those who study the various branches of science, if they want to retain any credibility, must of necessity ignore the most basic question of life.....who created what science studies?
You know how mechanisms work but not who invented them.

Perhaps you need "learn something"?

"Why do you hit your wife?"

See? This is what we call a "loaded question". There is an assumption hidden in the question. In this case, the question asks for the reason of why you hit your wife, but it just assumes that you hit your wife.

When you ask questions like "who created x?", you are asking a loaded question. It is loaded with the assumption that it was created (with intent, purpose, etc). None of this has been established. This is just you claiming it is the case, assuming it is the case.

Demonstrate that it is the case. First properly establish that it was created.

 

[Deeje]

What makes you believe someone created all this? Why can't these just be inherent properties of the universe? Eventually your argument will devolve into one of incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Depends on your definition of logic.....

"Nothing comes from nothing".....isn't that the simple truth of everything.

"All life comes from pre-existing life".....a fact fobbed off by evolutionary scientists, who always get angry if you mention abiogenesis, as if that has no place in this conversation. How life evolved from amoebas to dinosaurs (even though the concept is absurd) is so much more important than where life came from in the first place....and why this particular planet can host such an amazing assortment of life, all designed to be part of an Eco-system that is perfectly designed to support it. So which came first....the chicken or the egg?

"Cause and effect"....is another principle that gets ignored by science when it comes to the origin of everything. There is a great "First Cause".....but he is denied.

Why do I believe that someone created all this? Because it's obvious that accidents don't create order and that when something is designed, in human experience, someone saw a need and filled it....intelligently...with purpose and often with great ingenuity. It requires planning.....which requires an intelligent mind. Why can't that intelligent mind be God?

It's simple logic. You just have to get over the "big wizard in the sky" mentality because that is not what the Creator is. And magic is not what he practices. He is a Creator, not a magician. He produced the raw matierials because he is the source of all energy. He then fashioned these materials into all that science studies.

Ignore him if you like, but he will make himself known to the sceptics soon enough.....that is what he promises.....and I believe him. He has plans for this planet and indeed, probably the whole universe, which will not be undone by mere humans who think that they are more intelligent than they really are. He will have to step in soon, otherwise we will have no planet to live on.....we will have completely trashed the only home we have....such is the genius of man.

 

[ecco]

"Nothing comes from nothing".....isn't that the simple truth of everything.

No. That is Creationist sloganeering.

 

[ecco]

"All life comes from pre-existing life".....a fact fobbed off by evolutionary scientists, who always get angry if you mention abiogenesis,

Dejee, why do you keep repeating untruths? No scientists get angry when the subject of abiogenesis is raised. No rational layperson gets angry when the subject of abiogenesis is raised.

Unlike religious people, we answer honestly: We don't know, yet.

Superstitious people, on the other hand, are, and always have been, afraid of admitting "I don't know". Instead, they invented gods and replied: GodDidIt.

Now that that has been explained to you, again, I really hope you will never again make a nonsensical comment like: "scientists ... always get angry if you mention abiogenesis"

 

[ecco]

"Cause and effect"....is another principle that gets ignored by science when it comes to the origin of everything. There is a great "First Cause".....but he is denied.

Religious people like to throw up "Cause and Effect". Of course, when asked about the Cause of their god (whichever one it might be) the response is always the same:
Cough, cough. Uh, My God is uncaused.




ETA: Bring up cause and effect is really hypocritical. But that doesn't bother you, does it?

 

[Deeje]

For the chemistry of water, take first year chemistry, and second year organic chemistry. For the biochemistry of water, take second year biochemistry.

How about we take Logic 101.....and see that without the right materials, and a very detailed plan, you cannot construct anything. Detailing how a building is put together does not explain where the materials originated and what processes were needed to provide them in the right quantity and measure. It requires an architect and an engineer and a construction crew before the materials are even ordered and delivered.

Water is one very vital component to life on this beautiful blue planet. You haven't even touched on how it came to be here in such abundance in the first place, when it is clearly missing in any quantity from every other planet in our solar system. And why it has such amazing properties, compared to other liquids.

Educated speculation about these things is about all you really have. It's what satisfies unspiritual minds in an "either/or kind of mindset. If you think that there can't possibly be an all powerful Creator, then you will find a way to eliminate any need for him. But pretending that he's not there, doesn't make him go away.

I see the Creator as the one who designed it all and put all the mechanisms in place for self perpetuation to take care of all life here......as long as "intelligent" lifeforms didn't mess it up.

Humans, in their need to get rid of the 'big policeman in the sky' (don't like being told what to do or to accept responsibility for their selfish actions) have successfully explained away everything that made them responsible to the Creator as tenants of his property. What does a Landlord do if someone trashes his property and breaks their tenancy agreement? You know.....eviction is the next step, followed by an extensive repair job and offering a beautifully renovated place to new tenants....carefully selected ones, so that it doesn't happen again.

This is basic stuff IMO....yet fobbed off in favor of explanations that ignore these very basic precepts. A child could understand this. It doesn't require a university degree. Those with degrees are often the cause of many of the problems we face as humans on this planet, which is now struggling for breath. How will science undo all the damage I wonder? No one is putting up their hand to fix any of it......is it even fixable now?

Time will tell, I guess.

 

[ecco]

Ignore him if you like, but he will make himself known to the sceptics soon enough

Soon Enough! Indeedy. According to the founders of your sect, that was going to happen ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses
The Second Adventists affiliated with Nelson H. Barbour expected a visible and dramatic return of Christ in 1873,[55] and later in 1874.[56] They agreed with other Adventist groups that the "time of the end" (also called the "last days") had started in 1799.[57] Soon after the 1874 disappointment, Barbour's group decided Christ had returned to the earth in 1874, but invisibly. Writing in his journal The Herald of the Morning in 1875, Barbour outlined his eschatological views and connected the years 1874, 1878, 1881, and 1914. The "harvest" was to run from 1874 to the spring of 1878, concluding with "the translation of the living saints into the air."


​

 

[Wandering Monk]

How about we take Logic 101.....and see that without the right materials, and a very detailed plan, you cannot construct anything. Detailing how a building is put together does not explain where the materials originated and what processes were needed to provide them in the right quantity and measure. It requires an architect and an engineer and a construction crew before the materials are even ordered and delivered.

Water is one very vital component to life on this beautiful blue planet. You haven't even touched on how it came to be here in such abundance in the first place, when it is clearly missing in any quantity from every other planet in our solar system. And why it has such amazing properties, compared to other liquids.

Educated speculation about these things is about all you really have. It's what satisfied unspiritual minds in an "either/or kind of mindset. If you think that there can't possibly be an all powerful Creator, then you will find a way to eliminate any need for him. But pretending that he's not there, doesn't make him go away.

I see the Creator as the one who designed it all and put all the mechanisms in place for self perpetuation to take care of all life here......as long as "intelligent" lifeforms didn't mess it up.

Humans, in their need to get rid of the 'big policeman in the sky' (don't like being told what to do or to accept responsibility for their selfish actions) have successfully explained away everything that made them responsible to the Creator as tenants of his property. What does a Landlord do if someone trashes his property and breaks their tenancy agreement? You know.....eviction is the next step, followed by an extensive repair job and offering a beautifully renovated place to new tenants....carefully selected ones, so that it doesn't happen again.

This is basic stuff IMO....yet fobbed off in favor of explanations that ignore these very basic precepts. A child could understand this. It doesn't require a university degree. Those with degrees are often the cause of many of the problems we face as humans on this planet, which is now struggling for breath. How will science undo all the damage I wonder? No one is putting up their hand to fix any of it......is it even fixable now?

Time will tell, I guess.

How about this: because these conditions exist, water can happen, life can happen and so on.

You seem to think that ships exist for the sake of barnacles.

 

[Deeje]

I can just assert "it must not be so" then I guess

You can guess all you like....but all human actions have consequences.
All our actions are precipitated by thoughts that come from our mind. What we feed our mind becomes what we base our beliefs on. Evolutionary science is not based on facts...it is based on beliefs......justified beliefs, which is exactly what believers in an Intelligent Designer have too.

A science degree will not make science "fiction" into science "fact". As far as evolution is concerned, the "facts" are non-existent. They are manufactured and presented as facts when the plain truth of it is that it is speculation offered as suggestion. We all know the power of suggestion, especially when the one making the suggestion is well educated and is virtually telling their audience that anyone who fails to accept evolution as fact, is a moron.

If you have the courage of your convictions then it will be seen when the boom is lowered. I am expecting it to be sooner, rather than later....look around you.....the world is falling apart.

If the future is not in God's hands, then we are all doomed to suffer the results of man's educated stupidity. What a happy future you must have to look forward to.....

 

[ecco]

Water is one very vital component to life on this beautiful blue planet.

I see the Creator as the one who designed it all and put all the mechanisms in place for self perpetuation to take care of all life here

Drowning
Key facts

• Drowning is the 3rd leading cause of unintentional injury death worldwide, accounting for 7% of all injury-related deaths.
• There are an estimated 360 000 annual drowning deaths worldwide.

...and this...

 

[Deeje]

How about this: because these conditions exist, water can happen, life can happen and so on.

You seem to think that ships exist for the sake of barnacles.

You seem to think that water "happened" for no apparent reason. It exists because the materials needed to construct it were put in place by someone who is the greatest scientist in existence.

How much water is on this planet? How much of it is consumable by land dwellers? Does precipitation just magically take water from the ocean into the clouds, minus the salt, and then deposit fresh water into lakes and rivers for creatures to drink? Is that just a convenient accident? Wouldn't evolution design creatures that could exist by consuming salty water?

Who created the building blocks that make matter into all we see? What would life be like if we had no senses to discern the world around us? No sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell...? Why does nature have to be beautiful to sustain life? How is beauty determined?
Are you really that blind? Do you not go deeper that the surface?

Building codes exist in everything living. DNA is a code that transfers information from one living being into the creation of another...perfectly replicating a copy of its 'parents'. Clearly defined creatures breed only their own kind because they are programmed to do so. Just a fluke?

How many computer programs do you know of that needed no programmer? How many programmers do you know of who are unintelligent?

So we have to ask....is science itself into "poofing" now? All these things just popped up out of nowhere...for no apparent reason to become all that we see in the natural world? Seriously???

 

[Wandering Monk]

It exists because the materials needed to construct it were put in place by someone is the greatest scientist in existence.

How do you know it was someone, let alone the God of the Bible?

How much water is on this planet? How much of it is consumable by land dwellers? Does precipitation just magically take water from the ocean into the clouds, minus the salt, and then deposit fresh water into lakes and rivers for creatures to drink? Is that just a convenient accident? Wouldn't evolution design creatures that could exist by consuming salty water?

Yes, it is a convenient accident. And there are creatures that not only consume salty water, they live in it. Imagine!

Who created the building blocks that make matter into all we see? What would life be like if we had no senses to discern the world around us? No sight, hearing, taste, touch, smell...? Why does nature have to be beautiful to sustain life? How is beauty determined?
Are you really that blind? Do you not go deeper that the surface?

Again with the 'who.' Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many things you might deem beautiful are fatal to live.

Building codes exist in everything living. DNA is a code that transfers information from one living being into the creation of another...perfectly replicating a copy of its 'parents'. Clearly defined creatures breed only their own kind because they are programmed to do so. Just a fluke?

Mutation is not a 'perfect copy,' but it is mutation that makes adaptive change possible. Without it, there would be no life on earth.

How many computer programs do you know of that needed no programmer? How many programmers do you know of who are unintelligent?

So we have to ask....is science itself into "proofing" now? All these things just popped up out of nowhere...for no apparent reason to become all that we see in the natural world? Seriously???

As I suspected your argument just boils down to incredulity. 'I don't know, therefore God.'

That is the difference between faith and science: science will say 'I don't know. Let's figure it out.' Faith says 'I don't know, therefore God.'

 

[Deeje]

How do you know it was someone, let alone the God of the Bible?

How do you know it wasn't? The "evidence" for this God is every bit as convincing as the "evidence" upon which science relies to furnish its own "beliefs". You can no more prove that evolution ever took place than I can produce evidence for my Creator.

Yes, it is a convenient accident. And there are creatures that not only consume salty water, they live in it. Imagine!

Yes all brilliant designed for marine life, as the Bible says.
Perhaps you'd like to show me the evidence for whale evolution......?

Again with the 'who.' Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many things you might deem beautiful are fatal to live.

You mean like something in nature that can kill you? What about the things produced by science that can kill you? I am trying to think of something that science created that is beautiful....? I can think of many things that are deadly.....would you like a list?

Mutation is not a 'perfect copy,' but it is mutation that makes adaptive change possible. Without it, there would be no life on earth.

How many mutations are beneficial to living things? How many beneficial mutations would you need to explain all the diversity of all living things on earth? When do you run out of statistics?

Google beneficial mutations in humans and see how many come up.....and how earth shattering these mutations actually are in the big scheme of things. Just because things can adapt and change overtime is not proof for organic evolution. All living things remain just varieties of their original "kind". The Creator loves variety as we can plainly see. He put those adaptive capabilities in his design so that new environments or food sources could be overcome as things on earth ebb and flow as they inevitably do.

As I suspected your argument just boils down to incredulity. 'I don't know, therefore God.'

That is the difference between faith and science: science will say 'I don't know. Let's figure it out.' Faith says 'I don't know, therefore God.'

You *assume* that I don't know.....I can assure you that I do know. I have a close and personal relationship with my Creator......so I have nothing to figure out because he has explained it all and my own logic is attracted to the simplicity of the whole equation. You have no foundation to your beliefs.....because there is no foundation that is built on anything solid.

You have a magnificent edifice supported by matchsticks. That is how I see evolution....lots of wishful thinking but no substantive evidence.....what I see is all smoke and mirrors....wishful thinking, assumption, assertions and educated guessing, followed by loads of suggestion.....but no real proof. Your "evidence" requires interpretation which is invariably done by those who are already convinced that evolution is true and will adjust their interpretation accordingly. Not surprising is it?