The Miracle of Water.

[Deeje]

Evolution is clearly a threat to your beliefs, and you have basically stated as much many times on this board. And you demonstrate here again that you believe what you want to believe, because it makes you feel better. That's the reason you keep providing. You've never given "I want to believe as many true things as possible," as your reason for believing. That tells me a lot.

Evolution is a threat to your own future. It does not affect my future in the least. If you have read otherwise, then misinterpretation of my words has taken place. But then misinterpretation is key to believing what science says about evolution. So no surprises there.

That should be easy to prove. Go ahead, provide the evidence that independent groups of scientists all over the world have been fabricating evidence for evolution over the past 150+ years. It should be extremely easy to do, if your assertions hold any water.

I don't have to provide any proof of this conspiracy that the world finds itself party to. It's all in plain sight for those who have eyes to see it.

Science wants to ditch God because he isn't "testable" by their standards. So he is not "scientific" enough for y'all. Well the majority of science's evidence depends on interpretation of what they are looking at. None of that is actually testable either.....it's mostly guesswork, regardless of the jargon, it's a con of massive proportions fed to gullible people by people who are themselves hoodwinked by a master con artist. He doesn't exist either....right? It's the perfect set up.

Again we see you believing what you want to believe, based on no evidence whatsoever. Evidence doesn't matter to you, that is clear. Thank you for elucidating that point.

You guys crack me up....you have no real evidence either. When it comes to macro-evolution, you have nothing but assertion, assumption and suggestion to support the ridulous nature of what science is suggesting. Everything is just a colossal accident! Everything existing came from nothing. Order can come out of disorder. Mutations (hardly any of which are beneficial) are responsible for every lifeform on earth with all of their amazing components just accidentally coming together with mysterious precision...undirected......that is not supposed to be "magic"? Are you serious?

And you think we believe in fantasy.....

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Evolution is a threat to your own future. It does not affect my future in the least. If you have read otherwise, then misinterpretation of my words has taken place. But then misinterpretation is key to believing what science says about evolution. So no surprises there.



I don't have to provide any proof of this conspiracy that the world finds itself party to. It's all in plain sight for those who have eyes to see it.

Science wants to ditch God because he isn't "testable" by their standards. So he is not "scientific" enough for y'all. Well the majority of science's evidence depends on interpretation of what they are looking at. None of that is actually testable either.....it's mostly guesswork, regardless of the jargon, it's a con of massive proportions fed to gullible people by people who are themselves hoodwinked by a master con artist. He doesn't exist either....right? It's the perfect set up.



You guys crack me up....you have no real evidence either. When it comes to macro-evolution, you have nothing but assertion, assumption and suggestion to support the ridulous nature of what science is suggesting. Everything is just a colossal accident! Everything existing came from nothing. Order can come out of disorder. Mutations (hardly any of which are beneficial) are responsible for every lifeform on earth with all of their amazing components just accidentally coming together with mysterious precision...undirected......that is not supposed to be "magic"? Are you serious?

And you think we believe in fantasy.....

Well at least you've given up any pretence of mounting a rational argument. Your belief is nothing more than an irrational response, based on insecurity, fear, ignorance, and the need to conform. If your claim is that you BELIEVE that animals can speak to humans, that humans were created and did not naturally evolve, that the dead can rise again, that the laws of physics can be violated or suspended, that something greater than time, space, and reality exists, then that is certainly your right. But if your claim is that you KNOW these things are true, then you need to bring more to the table than baseless accusations and unsupported insinuations. You have the burden of proof. It is totally irrelevant if science is incomplete or does not satisfy your unscientific mind, you would still have to advance your own position. Simply denying the evidence for science is not advancing the evidence for God.

I have given you examples of how order can come from disorder. The example was clear and obvious, but you still choose to parrot more baseless creationist sound bites like a mindless broken record. You still choose to cherry-pick areas of science that are not absolutely certain, and conclude that all of science is a conspiracy, or a massive con-job. You are clearly not interested in following any evidence that doesn't support your world view, or the application of inductive/deductive reasoning. Since you can't posit any evidence to justify your own claims, you must attack the institution that can. Your only options you have is to smear, create doubt and uncertainty, and distrust of all of science. This is intellectually dishonest and totally fallacious. You offer no intellectual alternative, much less can demonstrate an understanding of the underlying theorems used by science. Even if you were buried up to your neck in all the objective evidence supporting Macroevolution, cognitive dissonance, pride and ego, will always keep you obstinate and in denial. If you could posit just ONE example of any supernatural, spiritual, metaphysical, or paranormal event, then we wouldn't be having this debate. Your entire worldview is based on faith and not facts. Science is not. Even if science could only produce one fact(gravity), it would be one fact more than any spiritual worldview.

Is it your claim that all the inquisitive scientific minds, engaging in years of studies and research, are just wasting their time since everyone knows that "God did it all". If God did do it all, aren't you curious exactly how He did it? So what is your explanation of the origin of life and the Universe? Maybe you can offer more than just assertions, assumptions, and suggestions to support your ridiculous supernatural claim? Or, is your argument only one-directional?

 

[ecco]

I don't have to provide any proof of this conspiracy that the world finds itself party to. It's all in plain sight for those who have eyes to see it.

That, in a nutshell, is what you must believe.

Hundreds of thousands of scientists, including people from all religious backgrounds, in many different fields of study, all engaged in a massive conspiracy to destroy your religious beliefs.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/.../why-do-people-believe-in-conspiracy-theories.

Conspiracy theories are also false beliefs, by definition. But people who believe in them have a vested interest in maintaining them. First, they’ve put some effort into understanding the conspiracy-theory explanation for the event, whether by reading books, going to web sites, or watching TV programs that support their beliefs. Uncertainty is an unpleasant state, and conspiracy theories provide a sense of understanding and certainty that is comforting.

The desire for control and security. People need to feel they’re in control of their lives. For instance, many people feel safer when they’re the driver in the car rather than a passenger. Of course, even the best drivers can get into accidents for reasons beyond their control.

Likewise, conspiracy theories can give their believers a sense of control and security. This is especially true when the alternative account feels threatening. For example, if global temperatures are rising catastrophically due to human activity, then I’ll have to make painful changes to my comfortable lifestyle. But if pundits and politicians assure me that global warming is a hoax, then I can maintain my current way of living. This kind of motivated reasoning is an important component in conspiracy theory beliefs.

The desire to maintain a positive self-image. Research shows that people who feel socially marginalized are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. We all have a desire to maintain a positive self-image, which usually comes from the roles we play in life—our jobs and our relationshipswith family and friends. When we know we make a positive difference in the lives of others—as parent, spouse, friend, teacher or mentor—we see our own lives as worthwhile, and we feel good about ourselves.

But say Uncle Joe is on disability and hasn’t worked in years. He feels socially excluded. However, he does have plenty of time to surf the internet for information about conspiracy theories, and he can chat online with others who hold similar beliefs. Thus, belief in conspiracy theories gives Uncle Joe a sense of community.

Furthermore, his research into conspiracy theories has given him a sense that he is the holder of privileged knowledge. Most people who believe global warming is real or that vaccines are safe don’t do so because they understand the science. Rather, they trust the experts. And so, when Uncle Joe starts trotting out all the “evidence” against global warming, it can be difficult to make a reasonable counterargument. All you’ve got is the feeling that the conspiracy theory seems too complicated to be true, but from Uncle Joe’s perspective, it’s clear he knows more about the subject than you do.

In sum, we have a good understanding of what motivates people to believe in conspiracy theories. That is, they do so because of three basic needs we all have: to understand the world around us, to feel secure and in control, and to maintain a positive self-image. But do conspiracy-theory beliefs actually help people satisfy these needs?









​

 

[ecco]

it's a con of massive proportions fed to gullible people

Yes, by all means, let's discuss massive cons fed to the gullible...

In 1876 Russell adopted the belief promulgated by some Adventist preachers that Jesus' parousia, or presence, had begun in 1874 and that the gathering of the little flock preliminary to the grand climax was already in progress. Using a form of parallel dispensations that incorporated "types" and "antitypes"—historical situations that prefigured corresponding situations later in time[9]—he calculated the harvest would extend only to 1878, at which time the gathered saints would be translated into spirit form.[10][2] The year would also bring the beginning of the "exercise of power" of God's kingdom, with evidence that God's favor was returning to the Jews.[11]​

 

[tas8831]

Well at least you've given up any pretence of mounting a rational argument. Your belief is nothing more than an irrational response, based on insecurity, fear, ignorance, and the need to conform.

Exactly.

 

[tas8831]

I don't have to provide any proof of this conspiracy that the world finds itself party to. It's all in plain sight for those who have eyes to see it.

"I am so special."

You guys crack me up....you have no real evidence either. When it comes to macro-evolution, you have nothing but assertion, assumption and suggestion to support the ridulous nature of what science is suggesting. Everything is just a colossal accident! Everything existing came from nothing. Order can come out of disorder. Mutations (hardly any of which are beneficial) are responsible for every lifeform on earth with all of their amazing components just accidentally coming together with mysterious precision...undirected......that is not supposed to be "magic"? Are you serious?

And you think we believe in fantasy.....

Yes, you believe in a fantasy. Many of them - to include the fantasy that YOU understand the evidence such that you can reject it all as you do, despite the fact that by your own admission, you need the evidence "dumbed down" to a point that a child can grasp it, and then dismiss the evidence for not being 'scientific' enough.

You must think that you are really something, such that you and only you truly understand it all.

But you obviously understand next to nothing. That or you are spectacularly mendacious and deceptive - your repeated lies about the evidence, for example. They can only be considered lies at this point, since your many baseless claims have been debunked, and you have been presented with evidence.

Look at your pathetic rant above - the ENTIRE THING is misrepresentation and medacity.

If you are an example of what JW produces in people, can there be any doubt why so many are hostile to your cult?

 

[Jose Fly]

I don't have to provide any proof of this conspiracy that the world finds itself party to.

What's the saying? A complete lack of evidence is merely proof the conspiracy is working perfectly!

It's all in plain sight for those who have eyes to see it.

That's right folks....once you have the magic decoder ring and drink the kool aid, it all becomes clear.

Now there's a sentiment that's never gone awry.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Evolution is a threat to your own future. It does not affect my future in the least. If you have read otherwise, then misinterpretation of my words has taken place. But then misinterpretation is key to believing what science says about evolution. So no surprises there.

Why would evolution be a threat to my future?

Apparently you’ve responded to something else, rather than what I said.

I don't have to provide any proof of this conspiracy that the world finds itself party to. It's all in plain sight for those who have eyes to see it.

So that’s a big fat NO then. You can’t provide it because there isn’t any. You’re happy with your unsubstantiated assertions because they fit your narrative of what you want to believe.

Science wants to ditch God because he isn't "testable" by their standards. So he is not "scientific" enough for y'all.

Science didn’t ditch anything. It simply can’t investigate claims that are untestable.

Do you have something that would work as a test for god(s)? And how can we posit things about god(s) when we have no evidence for said gods?

Well the majority of science's evidence depends on interpretation of what they are looking at. None of that is actually testable either.....it's mostly guesswork, regardless of the jargon, it's a con of massive proportions fed to gullible people by people who are themselves hoodwinked by a master con artist. He doesn't exist either....right? It's the perfect set up.

It’s all testable, and not only that, it’s also replicable. All evidence from almost every field of science over the course of 150+ years has produced evidence pointing to the same conclusion. That conclusion being that organisms evolve over time.

You can’t keep saying something is a con, and then refuse to produce evidence that it is a con. That’s dishonest.

You guys crack me up....you have no real evidence either. When it comes to macro-evolution, you have nothing but assertion, assumption and suggestion to support the ridulous nature of what science is suggesting.

That’s a joke. And it’s a joke that you’re even repeating this yet again, when so much evidence has been placed before you.

Everything is just a colossal accident! Everything existing came from nothing. Order can come out of disorder. Mutations (hardly any of which are beneficial) are responsible for every lifeform on earth with all of their amazing components just accidentally coming together with mysterious precision...undirected......that is not supposed to be "magic"? Are you serious?

And you think we believe in fantasy.....

Nonsense. Scientists can easily back up their claims for evolution. There are mountains of evidence supporting it. You can’t, as demonstrated above. So you can stop with this nonsense now.

 

[Deeje]

Why would evolution be a threat to my future?

Apparently you’ve responded to something else, rather than what I said.



So that’s a big fat NO then. You can’t provide it because there isn’t any. You’re happy with your unsubstantiated assertions because they fit your narrative of what you want to believe.



Science didn’t ditch anything. It simply can’t investigate claims that are untestable.

Do you have something that would work as a test for god(s)? And how can we posit things about god(s) when we have no evidence for said gods?



It’s all testable, and not only that, it’s also replicable. All evidence from almost every field of science over the course of 150+ years has produced evidence pointing to the same conclusion. That conclusion being that organisms evolve over time.

You can’t keep saying something is a con, and then refuse to produce evidence that it is a con. That’s dishonest.



That’s a joke. And it’s a joke that you’re even repeating this yet again, when so much evidence has been placed before you.

Nonsense. Scientists can easily back up their claims for evolution. There are mountains of evidence supporting it. You can’t, as demonstrated above. So you can stop with this nonsense now.

Hold those thoughts ST.....you will anyway. What more can be said? As I see things, we will all be "believers" one day......but for some of us, it will be too late. If people don't want God, that is their choice. He doesn't have to want them either.

It only took 150 years for humans to kill God. Amazing! And in those 150 years of advancement in science we have been taken to the brink of our own extinction.....by pollution of the land, air and water with poisonous man-made substances, the invention of petroleum powered vehicles, the invention of nuclear weapons, nuclear power stations, interruption of natural weather patterns by destroying natural forests, the introduction of GMO products, developing unnatural synthetic "medicines" that kill more people every year than they save......now add to that corrupt politics, an inordinate focus on wealth, power and a never ending supply of technological toys and we have disturbance in our brain function because of the EMF radiation that we are all exposed to every day. 5G is coming so, what little brain cells we have left will be turned to mush.

Left to answer to no one but themselves, humans have used science to end their own existence....in more ways than we can count. It's only a matter of time.

All hail science eh?

We all choose our own future. All the best with your choice.

I like mine better.

 

[ecco]

And in those 150 years of advancement in science we have been taken to the brink of our own extinction.

I don't understand your viewpoint. Your God flooded the entire earth and killed almost everyone. That was really close to extinction. Thank you.

 

[ecco]

All hail science eh?

Despite all your negativity, people are living longer, healthier lives than ever.

 

[Deeje]

I don't understand your viewpoint. Your God flooded the entire earth and killed almost everyone. That was really close to extinction. Thank you.

He did so for a very good reason and as Creator he can give life and also remove it from those who would corrupt the activities of other humans on this planet. We are due for it to happen again.....are you ready? How much more violence and corruption would you like to see in the world?
Would you like to see some more 'shirt-fronting' with world leaders capable of unleashing nuclear war simply as the result of a challenged ego?

"Because of the extraordinary danger of the current moment, the Science and Security Board today moves the minute hand of the Doomsday Clock 30 seconds closer to catastrophe. It is now two minutes to midnight—the closest the Clock has ever been to Doomsday, and as close as it was in 1953, at the height of the Cold War. Jan 25, 2018"
Current Time - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
Current Time - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Despite all your negativity, people are living longer, healthier lives than ever.

Are you serious? How many old people do you know who are not taking a handful of pills every day just to stay alive? Their quality of life is poor as they battle the side effects of the drugs they are given....and those who are capable of living independently, with relative good health, are in the minority. They might be living longer but most of them are not living better. They are at the mercy of the medical profession who just see them as a means to make money. Stand and watch in any drug store and see what people have to take and the amount of money they have to spend just to remain in a miserable old age.

You are around my vintage....how many drugs do you take? Your sixties are when your body is approaching its three score and ten.....it lets you know when your time is up. Its all pretty much downhill from there.

Do you know people in Nursing Homes? Have you visited them regularly? The government in Australia have been investigating Nursing Home facilities because of a cry of inhuman treatment of the elderly in the most appalling lack of care and compassion imaginable. I see that this is a common scenario in all nations when these institutions are run only to make money. Understaffed and underfunded, they cannot "care" for anyone. let alone the most frail and vulnerable citizens of their nations. You really want to tell me how we are living longer and more healthy lives? Compared to what? In this day and age, we should expect so much better.

 

[Jose Fly]

Despite all your negativity, people are living longer, healthier lives than ever.

I've recently learned that if you're a happy person living a fulfilling life, the Jehovah's Witness faith is not for you.

 

[ecco]

I don't understand your viewpoint. Your God flooded the entire earth and killed almost everyone. That was really close to extinction. Thank you.

He did so for a very good reason

Yes, He did. It's called CYA. He messed up the original creation so badly that he needed to start over.

 

[ecco]

It is now two minutes to midnight—the closest the Clock has ever been to Doomsday, and as close as it was in 1953, at the height of the Cold War. Jan 25, 2018"
Current Time - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
Current Time - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

Did you read the article? Actually read it? It seems to be an indictment of Donald Trump. The two main issues they discussed are Nukes and AGW.

Trump has been reckless regarding nukes with Iran and North Korea and he pulled us out of the Paris agreement. Trump has the support of Christian Fundamentalists like yourself.

There are very few atheists who support Trump.

Did you read even as much as the headline...
A new abnormal:
It is still 2 minutes to midnight

It was 2 minutes to midnight in 1953. So throughout your life, things have not gotten any worse.

 

[ecco]

How many old people do you know who are not taking a handful of pills every day just to stay alive? Their quality of life is poor as they battle the side effects of the drugs they are given

Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses are more susceptible to drugs than the general population. I know quite a few people who take blood pressure medications and blood thinners with no side effects. Those who have undergone chemo and radiation did suffer from side effects but chose that rather than the alternative.

....and those who are capable of living independently, with relative good health, are in the minority. They might be living longer but most of them are not living better. They are at the mercy of the medical profession who just see them as a means to make money.

What age group are you referring to? Your statement might be true for people 85+ but not for 65-80 YOs.

Stand and watch in any drug store and see what people have to take and the amount of money they have to spend just to remain in a miserable old age.

No one has to "remain in a miserable old age". The elderly people that I know are appreciative of being alive. Maybe old Jehovah's Witnesses aren't.

You are around my vintage

I'll skip the too personal stuff. Suffice it to say, thanks to modern medicine, I've outlived my father by a dozen years and I'm still going strong.

 

[ecco]

Do you know people in Nursing Homes? Have you visited them regularly? The government in Australia have been investigating Nursing Home facilities because of a cry of inhuman treatment of the elderly in the most appalling lack of care and compassion imaginable. I see that this is a common scenario in all nations when these institutions are run only to make money. Understaffed and underfunded, they cannot "care" for anyone. let alone the most frail and vulnerable citizens of their nations. You really want to tell me how we are living longer and more healthy lives? Compared to what? In this day and age, we should expect so much better.

It's true that many end up in nursing homes:

40%: The percentage of individuals who reach age 65 who will enter a nursing home during their lifetimes.​

That means that 60% will not.

From the 1500s onward, till around the year 1800, life expectancy throughout Europe hovered between 30 and 40 years of age.
​

But I don't see why this has you in such a state of anger. You know that any day now, the End of Times will arrive so you'll never have to go on pills and get sent off to a nursing home.

​

 

[ecco]

In this day and age, we should expect so much better.

Why would you say that? You are against science in all its forms. People like you have hindered the advance of science throughout history. If you hadn't, perhaps by 2019 we would all be living healthy, robust lives to age 150 due to gene therapy. Gene therapy based on results from research into stem cells.

Remember stem cells? Remember Fundamentalist Christians fighting against stem cell research?

 

[Deeje]

Why would you say that? You are against science in all its forms.

You see, this is what happens when you don't listen. I have no issues with real provable science. I have issues with suggestions, assertions and guesses being presented as facts in macro-evolution, when there is no way to prove them. I know, I know, science doesn't deal in provable facts......so what do you call assertions that cannot be proven? "Evidence"? Nothing is proven by that anyway. Educated guesses are not facts.

People like you have hindered the advance of science throughout history. If you hadn't, perhaps by 2019 we would all be living healthy, robust lives to age 150 due to gene therapy. Gene therapy based on results from research into stem cells.

Gene therapy is a relatively new frontier and whist scientists dabble in things that can be highly unethical, I support the use of stem cells when they are not harvested from aborted fetuses. There are lines that should not be crossed without a good deal of research. Now that stem cells can be harvested from our own fat cells, the ethical dilemmas have been reduced to a manageable level.

If you are looking for a hindrance to gene therapies, then I suggest that you look no further than the ones who do the research themselves. The drug company funded research is in no hurry to cure anything...they are making too much money off of treatments.....there is no money in cures. Stem cells could put big pharma and orthopedic surgeons out of business. Fancy using the body's own healing mechanisms to do away with invasive surgeries. Whodathunk?

Just for the record, NO JW has ever hindered anything done by science. Its none of our business what science does. We will however investigate what science has done and if it is unethical from our perspective, then we might reject a procedure based on the grounds of conscience. But as for hindering the progress of science, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Remember stem cells? Remember Fundamentalist Christians fighting against stem cell research?

We are not Fundies.....sorry. We fight against nothing. The world will do what the world will do...they will just do it without our interference. They don't have to answer to us. The worse things get, the more the world condemns itself and all who support its godless agendas.

Now, might I suggest that if you are so bored that you have no one else to talk to...you might find something more productive to do than carry on at me. I know what your opinion is so there is no need to keep repeating it...OK?

 

[tas8831]

I don't understand your viewpoint. Your God flooded the entire earth and killed almost everyone. That was really close to extinction. Thank you.

And followed that up with the necessity for widespread incest...