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Featured The Miracle of Water.

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Deeje, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Given just how big the Universe is...how can you possibly say that it didn't come out by accident? With so many stars and planets, it could very well have been "accidental".
     
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  2. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    What about systems? The sign of something designed by intelligence is it's internal complexity independent of the environment. The sign of evolutionary design (a process which involves the simplistic play of dumb elements randomly interacting) is the great complexity of something INTERTWINED with its environment.
     
  3. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    You are describing the interconnectedness of life...that is an ecological point of view which, in turn, is part of the evolutionary model of the Universe.
     
  4. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it can be a fluke of nature. Why not? There may be gods, but at this point, we have no evidence that can't be accounted for naturalistically, and therefore we have no need for a god hypothesis.

    I remember learning about water's unique properties about 30 years ago. Never once did it occur to me that that was a sign of a god's input. I believe that one must already believe in such a god upon reading (or in this case watching) about water to see it as supporting or confirming one's god belief.

    Actually, it is, and it's evolving right now. The Big Bang theory is all about the evolution of the early universe up to the point of vast clouds of neutral hydrogen and helium, followed by the evolution of galaxies and solar systems, then to the advent of life and mind.

    The earth is evolving every day. It's coastlines and river courses vary over time. Mountains are thrown up and sea floors become dry land as erosion whittles away at those mountains and returns some of the minerals to the modern sea floors. Continents are moving, colliding, and tearing apart. Earth is warming and sea level changing.The days are lengthening and the moon receding. The sun is consuming its fixed supply of hydrogen.

    It's always a mistake for the scientifically unsophisticated to bring scientific arguments to those who have studied it extensively. It's counterproductive, assuming that the purpose is to sway that audience. What is revealed is that the arguer doesn't know the science, which undermine his or her argument, which is usually from incredulity - "I don't see how it could have arisen without an intelligent designer, therefore it didn't."

    That's an unsupported claim grounded in a desire that that be the case. Although there may be an intelligent designer, there is no reason to believe that there is, and our science has no need of one. Inserting gods into our existing scientific theories gives them no more explanatory power and allows for no additional predictions or practical applications.

    The rational skeptic needs more and better evidence than that before accepting any god claim.

    Incidentally, I don't believe that the anthropic principle is adequately defined by, "it is unremarkable that this universe has fundamental constants that happen to fall within the narrow range thought to be compatible with life." I believe that its essential message is that it is unremarkable that a creature that can contemplate its existence will find itself in a universe that has the qualities to produce and support that activity. In fact, it's probably required.

    EDIT: typo's corrected.
     
    #44 It Aint Necessarily So, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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  5. Jose Fly

    Jose Fly Fisker of men

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    Is @Deeje 's argument that God personally assembles every water molecule in the universe?
     
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  6. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    It's a very legitimate response. You are like the water in a puddle that fills a depression in the ground after a rain storm. You look around at the depression in the ground and conclude that it fits you perfectly and that this means someone must have intelligently designed the depression in the ground in order to accommodate you so perfectly. But the reality is that no one designed the random depression in the ground to accommodate the storm's water. The exact opposite took place. It was the rain water that adapted to accommodate the size of the random depression in the ground.

    In the same way you look around at the planet we live on and conclude that it had to have adapted perfectly to accommodate life and thus someone must have intelligently designed this environment in order to accommodate life so perfectly. But again, it's the opposite that is true. It was life that adapted to accommodate the conditions that exist on this planet. That life has adapted so perfectly to accommodate the conditions of this planet should be no more surprising than the fact that rain water adapts so perfectly to accommodate a depression in the ground.
     
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  7. lioncub1503

    lioncub1503 Seven ate nine

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    We have no definite proof either way, that is why it is called faith. Either you have faith in a God by looking at all the other points of evidence, or you believe that the universe just suddenly appeared out of nothing. The thing I don’t get is how something can come out of nothing.

    Firstly, theory not fact. Also, just a thought, scientists say they have some proof of the Big Bang. If God created the universe, don’t you think there would have been a mass explosion of energy, I.e. the Big Bang?
     
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  8. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I love that the scriptures show not only is Jesus Christ the Creator of physical water..

    For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
    Colossians 1:16

    But He also provides to all who believe, Living Water, which is the Holy Spirit, so that one need never thirst spiritually again...


    .If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water. John 4:10

    On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
    John 7:37-39
     
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  9. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Yet, isn't this exactly what you do believe, that God created something out of nothing?

    When it comes to scientific theory, it is as close to fact as one can get. Theory in science does not mean a guess or a suggestion or an idea. You can educate yourself on this by reading the following: What Is a Scientific Theory?

    Sure, but why do you think science is okay when it agrees with you, but wrong when it doesn't? Sounds rather insincere.
     
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  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    It is good that you don't get is how something can come out of nothing because it can't.
    Please notice what I find at Isaiah 40:26 because God did Not create out of Nothing. - Psalms 104:30
    God created out of His ' power and strength '. God supplied the abundantly needed dynamic energy to create.
    Jeremiah also wrote God used His great 'Power' to create at Jeremiah 10:12; Jeremiah 27:5; Jeremiah 32:17
    So, whoever is saying God created out of nothing is Not teaching what we can learn from the Bible.
    What the Bible really teaches is it is through God's 'power and strength' that He created the visible material realm of existence.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    .... and where did hydrogen get its start. That start according to Scripture comes from God's power and strength.
    So, God used His abundant dynamic energy to create the start of the visible realm of existence that we see.

    Everything I see is perishable but that does Not have to mean God is Not in control of His creation.
    Just as we change garments to refresh oneself, God will always refresh Earth.
    As God says at Ecclesiastes 1:4 B that our Earth abides forever.
    So, just as a polluted Earth can spring back once the pollution stops, our Earth will always be renewed.
    True, at this time, we don't have all the answers, but Scriptures does teach that we will.
     
  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    The start according to reality was that quarks combined to make protons and neutrons. When the universe had expanded enough for the temperature to reduce to allow the protons and neutrons to combine hydrogen, helium, lithium and beryllium were produced

    Not always, not when the sun goes red giant. Earth will be stripped of all living matter and reduced to s ball of hot rock before being consumed.
     
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  13. lioncub1503

    lioncub1503 Seven ate nine

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    Nice, exactly what I was about to reply to @Windwalker

    What I don’t have is scientific proof that either God doesn’t exist or that such things as evolution or the universe coming about simultaneously without a divine being creating it being true.
    In my experience, the bible is highly scientifically accurate. Although it is not a science text-book, whenever it touches on science it has been proved correct, and so it should be, even when popular opinion was very different.
    When does the bible ever disagree with science?


    “He stretches out the northern sky over empty space, suspending the earth upon nothing.” - Job 26:7

    At this time, people thought that the Earth was atop four elephant elephants on a turtle on a etc...
    The bible, although apparently contradicting ‘science’, was eventually proved correct. People thought ‘how can the Earth simply hang upon nothing?! That’s crazy!’


    “There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth.” Isaiah 40:22

    Everyone thought that the Earth was flat, and some believed that if you walked too far you would fall off the edge.


    “All the streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is not full. To the place from which the streams flow, there they return so as to flow again.”

    Here is a detailed explanation of the water cycle, something that people had not yet come to grasp nor even believe to be possible. If someone told you this back in bible times, you would wonder how on Earth this could even happen. There is also a scripture saying about the embryo, and it is only relatively recently that scientists have been able to see this.
     
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  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The Big Bang was Not like a nuclear explosion where things end up Not organized, but the Big Bang shows organization. I find there is No organization without intelligence. Where we find intelligence we find a mind.
    Where there is a mind there is person, and where there is a person there is a personality.
     
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  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Hi lioncub, ' scientific proof that God doesn't exist....' so to me, even absence of evidence is Not evidence of absence.
    Atheism seems to adhere to the dogmatic view there is No God.
    Since that can Not be proven, then Atheism is the 'exercise of faith' in the non-existence of God.

    P.S. Since RF won't allow me to post on Christianity DIR I can't comment there about the repetitive prayers.
    I find most people do Not realize Jesus did Not always use the same words in the model Our Father prayer.
    We can see that by comparing Matthew 6:9-13 with Luke 11:2-4.
    So, Jesus was clear Not to use memorized words but use ideas about which Jesus gives us a sample.
    Also, in Jesus' Lord's Prayer of John 17th chapter Jesus gives us more ideas about which to pray about.
     
    #55 URAVIP2ME, Oct 22, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
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  16. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    And yet, somehow you believe that an omnipotent, omniscient god has always existed. A god that didn't come out of nothing because it always existed.

    You never question that, do you.
     
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  17. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    For one, when it states the entire world was covered in water about 5000 years ago.
    For another when it states that a tiny wooden boat could have survived the most horrific storms and waves ever.
     
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  18. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. Atheism adheres to the rational view that there are no gods.

    Do you believe there are gods?
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I am wondering if you question that you can count numbers everlastingly both forwards and backwards forever and ever. To me that indicates there is No end to counting in both directions.
    So, to me to say God is from everlasting just shows as numbers go on endlessly, so can God be from everlasting.

    There is Nothing before Creator ( Revelation 4:11)
    There is No creator who created the Creator.
    Creator is always the start or beginning of something.
    So, the God of the Bible is Not only God but The Creator.
    The Creator who started first the invisible realm and expanded His creation to include the now visible or material realm.
     
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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find in artist's drawings the Ark was Not a tiny wooden boat. It was Not Noah's boat.
    It does Not take around 50 years to build a boat, but it took Noah and company decades to complete the Ark.
    Plus, the Ark was Not boat shaped. The Ark did Not have to be steered anywhere but just float.
     
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