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The Miracle of Water.

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Perhaps you could show us how many of them included invisible deities in their explanations of the the natural workings of the earth and the universe.

What's that? None of them. Okay then.
Are you saying Boyle, Newton, etc., didn't think that God built all these natural wonders?

But that pov didn't keep them from successfully examining them. In fact, as earlier stated, it gave them added reason, to discover their purpose.

No amount of obfuscation from you or others, can change the fact that believing in a Creator increases exploration, or discovery in how things work. It doesn't inhibit it.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is no known barrier to the tree of life evolving from a single common ancestral species. Evolution occurs in all living populations at all times. There is no known way to stop it short of an extinction event. At no time does it reach a point where no more evolving can occur.


1) Direct experimental evidence. Ex.: even under lab-controlled conditions, basically providing an environment conducive to evolution, untold numbers of experiments performed on Drosophila melanogaster, didn’t alter it, one iota! Not beneficially, anyways! (Poor flies.)

2) Apoptosis. Any mutation in a cell's structure not immediately resulting in a function, like in the irreducibly-complex eye, would have caused cellular self-destruction.

3) Sexual selection. Females are picky! (No further explanation needed!)

None of these offers a mechanism for preventing what creationists call microevolution. You might as well add genetic mozaicism and egg laying, or any other phrase from biology that you can name. They also do not demonstrate what would stop this process, which is why that claim that such a barrier exists is disregarded by the scientific community.

Some processes do have natural barriers. They are called self-limited. Hemorrhaging would be one. There is a barrier that prevents you from extending a hemorrhage of 20cc of blood in 2 seconds to one of 10,000cc in 1,000 seconds. If nothing else, you would run out of blood before that happened.

Or the formation of an icicle on your roof's eave, which is limited by a variety of factors, including there being only a fixed distance for the icicle to grow before reaching the ground, or it falling to the ground under its own weight, or the spring thaw.

But evolution has no such known barrier, just like the orbit of Pluto, which we have been observing for fewer years than it takes for Pluto to orbit the sun. We expect that Pluto will complete this orbit and as many more as is possible for as long as the sun and Pluto both exist in the same solar system.

I'll bet that if there were scripture that said that Pluto will turn around after half an orbit, then do it again a half orbit later, and thus never complete an orbit, we would now be hearing that micro-orbiting - less than a complete trip around the sun - is possible, but macro-orbiting has never been observed, and therefore cannot happen.

Somebody might ask what barrier is there to completing an orbit, and the answer might be a few astronomical terms that offer no mechanism for stopping a planet and reversing its direction. You know, like (1) precession of the equinoxes, (2) variable axial tilt, and (3) anomalous retrograde motion.

But thanks for offering an answer. You counterpart didn't try.

Maybe you'd like to try your hand at the two other questions she evaded:

"Why we would trade in a theory that unifies mountains of data from a multitude of sources, accurately makes predictions about what can and cannot be found in nature, provides a rational mechanism for evolution consistent with the known actions of nature, accounts for both the commonality of all life as well as biodiversity, and has had practical applications that have improved the human condition in areas like medicine and agriculture for an idea like creationism that can do none of that?"

and

"What are we to do with those mountains of evidence consistent with naturalistic biological evolution if the theory ever were falsified, say by finding the legendary pre-Cambrian rabbit or a partially digested human being in the digestive track of a dinosaur?"

Really? How did this turn out w/ Drosophila melanogaster? Mutations even under controlled conditions were....what? Beneficial? I think you know the answer. Yet, in natural, harsher conditions, you expect better results? To account for the huge numbers of vastly disparate (yet functional) lifeforms.... it’s irrational.

Over geological time, we expect different outcomes than in a laboratory over a few years.

Also, those harsh environments you mention are what drive relatively rapid evolution.

Yes, there is another way....by turning a population into homosexuals.

If that resulted in the complete absence of reproduction, that would constitute an extinction event. It should be considered a lethal mutation, and not an argument against Darwin's theory.

As long as parents are producing offspring, evolution continues.

Which raises a question (in all honesty, with no offense intended to anyone): if evolution is indeed based on the "selfish gene".... why would natural selection 'select' for that trait? It would be killing itself, in the long run. No benefit, there.

That question has been considered at length. You can review any of these articles that you care to.

Evolution occurs because of the natural processes of genetic variation and natural selection. The genes are not selfish. They have no consciousness, and no intent - no more than rain drops falling to the ground.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Are you saying Boyle, Newton, etc., didn't think that God built all these natural wonders?

But that pov didn't keep them from successfully examining them. In fact, as earlier stated, it gave them added reason, to discover their purpose.

No amount of obfuscation from you or others, can change the fact that believing in a Creator increases exploration, or discovery in how things work. It doesn't inhibit it.
I'm saying what I said. Perhaps you could address it, rather than addressing something you wanted me to say.

None of these men you've cited found God anywhere. What they found were natural explanations that describe a natural world. In other words, God(s) aren't necessary.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Please, please explain why picky females are a deterrent to evolution. If anything, the exact opposite is true.

Not with human females, that's for sure!

But in the animal kingdom, females are highly selective in choosing mates! Anything even slightly irregular, they'll disregard it.

You don't know that?

How come you ignored my first two reasons?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
What they found were natural explanations that describe a natural world. In other words, God(s) aren't necessary.

"What they found" were complex designs, interacting with other complex designs.

They recognized it required an intelligent mind to harmonize it all together.

I'm curious, why are you so against there being an Intelligence behind it all?

Every designed thing we see, from the tangible to the intangible from radios to laws to formation of governments, we know intelligence is behind it.

Why not far more complicated, interacting and efficient laws of nature and life?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
None of these offers a mechanism for preventing what creationists call microevolution. You might as well add genetic mozaicism and egg laying, or any other phrase from biology that you can name
The term, microevolution, was not invented by a creationist. Nor is it solely used by creationists.
They also do not demonstrate what would stop this process
Yes, they do.
The experiments themselves, which have involved many species, including the 20,000-generation study of E. coli, present strong evidence against any such macro evolution occurring.


....which is why that claim that such a barrier exists is disregarded by the scientific community.
Of course! They have to, or else it all caves in. (I'm glad you said 'disregarded', not 'debunked.')
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Yes, they do.
The experiments themselves, which have involved many species, including the 20,000-generation study of E. coli, present strong evidence against any such macro evolution occurring.
Oh, I would love to hear your explanation of how that is so. So by all means....please proceed.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well, they did exist in the minds of people before your God existed in the minds of people

In my view, as opposed to your own, the Creator had one on one contact with his creation from the beginning of their existence....so how could people exist before that who knew other gods?

You're missing the point though. I'm explaining this from the point of view of someone who isn't a member of your religion. I have no reason to believe what the Bible says about God(s) is any more or less accurate than any other "holy text" that has ever existed. The reality is, that many people have believed in many different gods, and still do.

Exactly...you demonstrate that people have choices about who and what to believe. It can take them to polar opposite opinions. Only the end will tell the truth of the story....either the end of life or the end of this world system, which you know that the Bible predicts.

You've been given what you asked for. And yet you are still asking for it.

I was never given anything but suggestion masquerading as fact.

Care to provide it again...I'll show you why I rejected it.

From studying the available evidence. Care to address the point about design, please?

The point is, science assumes an endless stream of beneficial mutations that accomplished the formation of incredibly complex systems in biology and in nature generally that cannot be substantiated. Design in this kind of complexity doesn't just drop out of the sky. Anything man-made that is complex requires design by intelligent minds....why does nature require less?

No one has ever met this creator you speak of, so I don't know how you can make any claims about "his" supposed character traits.

Oh, you have never been introduced? How sad. :(

I can vouch for his character because his directives form a huge part of my life decisions. They have kept me from making some big mistakes and led me to a kind of peace (of mind and heart) that I do not see in the godless. I have a solid hope for the future that they simply don't have. This pathetic excuse for a life is all there is for you guys. I can't live like that. You can if it makes you feel somehow intellectually superior. :shrug:

Sounds like an interpretation to get to the conclusion you already accept in the first place. And you poo-poo science? Come on.

You illustrate the situation well....we each have a belief system....we have each chosen our position for our own reasons.

I have a belief system that I acknowledge, always saying that I have faith in the existence of my God because I see his intelligent hand everywhere in nature. You can see the same "evidence" and follow what science suggests about its foundations. But at the end of the day, you can't prove what you believe either. You guys claim to have all the evidence.....but you have nothing that you can substantiate.

Free will is a wonderful thing....isn't it? :)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
"What they found" were complex designs, interacting with other complex designs.


They recognized it required an intelligent mind to harmonize it all together.

Funny how they didn't include that "intelligent mind" in their explanations of the workings of the natural world. That is the point I'm trying to make to you.

Their explanations of the physical, natural world did not include the need for creators. Newton didn't include any gods in his descriptions of motion or gravity. And he didn’t need to. It worked out just fine without that assumption.

I'm curious, why are you so against there being an Intelligence behind it all?

I'm not against it. I'm for wherever the evidence leads. I do not see the evidence leading to any of the proposed "creators" that any religions have come up with thus far.


Every designed thing we see, from the tangible to the intangible from radios to laws to formation of governments, we know intelligence is behind it.

By stating that everything is designed up front, you’re simply begging the question.


Why not far more complicated, interacting and efficient laws of nature and life?

Is the God you worship complex? Wouldn’t that complexity require that “he” too would have had to be designed?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
In my view, as opposed to your own, the Creator had one on one contact with his creation from the beginning of their existence....so how could people exist before that who knew other gods?

Because they did. It's a fact. I'm sorry if it disagrees with your view of human history, but your view is just wrong. Many people existed long before the Bible was ever written, and those people worshiped all kinds of different Gods. There are people living TODAY who believe in all kinds of different gods. They believe(d) them to be as real as you believe your God to be.

Exactly...you demonstrate that people have choices about who and what to believe. It can take them to polar opposite opinions. Only the end will tell the truth of the story....either the end of life or the end of this world system, which you know that the Bible predicts.

I don't think we consciously choose what we believe. I mean, can you force yourself into believing you can fly?

I think we are convinced into believing things.

And again, it’s not an either or situation. I mean, that’s the whole entire point of this conversation. It’s about how Pascal’s Wager is garbage because there are way more than just 2 options.


I was never given anything but suggestion masquerading as fact.

You have been provided many times over with exactly what you have asked for. That you wave it off is on you. You have been presented with evidence over and over again, in multiple threads.

Care to provide it again...I'll show you why I rejected it.

I couldn’t possibly provide all the mountains of evidence you’ve been given in just this one post. You would just wave it away and ignore it anyway. I’ve seen you in action.

You prefer vague assertions and pretty pictures rather than actual evidence. But demand so much more from others.

The point is, science assumes an endless stream of beneficial mutations that accomplished the formation of incredibly complex systems in biology and in nature generally that cannot be substantiated. Design in this kind of complexity doesn't just drop out of the sky. Anything man-made that is complex requires design by intelligent minds....why does nature require less?

Back to the point … how do you explain the extinction of 99.9% of every species that has ever existed as good design? Most species don’t make it on this planet. As if they weren’t designed very well in the first place.

If you want to go on about complexity then I’ll have to go back to asking you where your complex, complication magical designer came from. Who designed the designer? Did your God just “drop out of the sky?”

Oh, you have never been introduced? How sad. :(

I can vouch for his character because his directives form a huge part of my life decisions. They have kept me from making some big mistakes and led me to a kind of peace (of mind and heart) that I do not see in the godless. I have a solid hope for the future that they simply don't have. This pathetic excuse for a life is all there is for you guys. I can't live like that. You can if it makes you feel somehow intellectually superior. :shrug:

Yet you can’t show this guy to me. But you can vouch for his character? That’s funny.

Also, I’m sick and tired of hearing from you how miserable and sid you think atheists are. It simply isn’t the case, generally speaking. I am certainly not either of those things. I’m too busy enjoying the only life I know I get for sure, and all the people in it. I’m interested in making the world a better place for the people who come after me, rather than waiting for some afterlife that probably isn’t coming.

You illustrate the situation well....we each have a belief system....we have each chosen our position for our own reasons.

I have a belief system that I acknowledge, always saying that I have faith in the existence of my God because I see his intelligent hand everywhere in nature. You can see the same "evidence" and follow what science suggests about its foundations. But at the end of the day, you can't prove what you believe either. You guys claim to have all the evidence.....but you have nothing that you can substantiate.

Free will is a wonderful thing....isn't it? :)

I don’t see faith as being a path to truth or knowledge. Anything can be believed on faith.

I don’t require faith to accept the findings of science because they are demonstrable, testable, repeatable and verifiable. Religion doesn’t have any of that.
 
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BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Has prayer ever solved medical conditions? And when I'm talking about medical conditions, I'm talking about the ones that can't be cured through conventional means, such as missing limbs.
No misrepresenting what actually happened, as you all seem to love doing.

Sounds like you never read the scriptures, for example, where Jesus restored the ear of the soldier that Peter severed!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
After service one Sunday morning a parishioner asked the preacher...
Reverend Smith, there is a lot of money put into the collection plates every week. How do you decide how much to use for god's work and how much to keep for yourself?​
Reverend Smith answered...
Son, it's all God's will. I take all the money collected and throw it up to God. He takes what he needs and tosses back down what He feels I should keep for myself.​

So, you have tithed or not? You have the hundreds of experiments performed that I have, in tithing?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You don't pray often, just daily about things small and large.




Brings to mind an old slogan:
Figures don't lie; Liars figure.

Both teams pray for victory. The winning team thanks God. The losing team waits till next week.

Four people are injured in a car crash. People pray for them. Two survive, two die. People thank God that the two survived. People accept that God needed two more angels in heaven.

You are confusing magical thinking for observations made thousands of times (inductive conclusions).
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Just did it.

Nothing happened.

How does that fit with your hypothesis?

I once watched Matt Dillahunty say the same thing on the air on his show, The Atheist Experience. Nothing happened there either.

How does that fit with your hypothesis?

You told God "evidence NOW"? "Evidence SOON?"
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I've been working since I was 10 years old. Always insisted on putting my own money in the tithing plate.


So you haven't logged nor counted them in any real sense. You haven't weighed answered prayers against unanswered prayers. And all the data (it's a huge stretch to call it that, but whatever) comes from you alone.

Sorry but you are not a good scientist. We can see now why you haven't gotten past the hypothesis stage.

It's not difficult to log or count a 100% success rate. ;)
 

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
Sounds like you never read the scriptures, for example, where Jesus restored the ear of the soldier that Peter severed!
I don't mean in scripture. Scripture isn't proof that something happened. What is proof, however, is someone's arm growing back on camera. Funny how nothing miraculous happens when the cameras start rolling, huh?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Are you saying Boyle, Newton, etc., didn't think that God built all these natural wonders?

But that pov didn't keep them from successfully examining them. In fact, as earlier stated, it gave them added reason, to discover their purpose.

No amount of obfuscation from you or others, can change the fact that believing in a Creator increases exploration, or discovery in how things work. It doesn't inhibit it.

If the "explorer" believes his findings are in conflict with his deep religious convictions one of two things happen...
  1. He puts aside his deep religious convictions and continues exploring.
  2. He stops exploring.
Which best describes you?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The experiments themselves, which have involved many species, including the 20,000-generation study of E. coli, present strong evidence against any such macro evolution occurring.

You still haven't demonstrated a barrier to common descent arising from the last universal common ancestral population.

Design in this kind of complexity doesn't just drop out of the sky.

No. It follows from the laws of nature. That you cannot conceive of that is not a valid argument, but rather, a logical fallacy called argument from incredulity. Nature doesn't depend on what you can or can not imagine.

Anything man-made that is complex requires design by intelligent minds....why does nature require less?

That's irrelevant. It is not a valid argument that the universe as we find it apart from those human artifacts that you mentioned is incapable of self-assembling. It's an unsupported claim.

They have kept me from making some big mistakes and led me to a kind of peace (of mind and heart) that I do not see in the godless.

Because you only see what your faith allows you to see. These threads are replete with happy atheists, who don't seem to have any need or use for that which you find essential, or think that we might want or need.

This pathetic excuse for a life is all there is for you guys

Thanks for your concern, but as I just implied, you have nothing to offer unbelievers. Life as a Jehovah's Witness has no appeal for me. What you can see or not is irrelevant except to you. What you find believable is also of interest only to you.

And you don't want to know what I consider pathetic.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No further explanation needed? Really? Actually a lot of further explanation is needed. Please, please explain why picky females are a deterrent to evolution. If anything, the exact opposite is true.

How come you ignored my first two reasons?

Because your comment about picky females was so outrageous.

Not with human females, that's for sure!

But in the animal kingdom, females are highly selective in choosing mates! Anything even slightly irregular, they'll disregard it.

You don't know that?

First off, you cannot separate humans from the animal kingdom. If you really must, then replace the word "men" with "potential mates" in the following.

What is irregular?

Why would all highly selective picky females disregard taller men?
Why would all highly selective picky females disregard faster men?
Why would all highly selective picky females disregard smarter men?
Why would all highly selective picky females disregard stronger men?
Why would all highly selective picky females disregard ugly men who are good hunters?

Each of these variations have different traits that may or may not be beneficial depending on the specific environment. Diversity leads to evolution; evolution leads to diversity; diversity leads to evolution.

Now, would you care to explain your assertion or are we to just assume that no highly selective picky females ever wanted to be with you?
 
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