The Messianic verses of Isaiah

[Dawnofhope]

The book of Isaiah is an outstanding work in the Old Testament that would distinguish Isaiah as one of the greatest prophets of his time. It contains numerous messianic verses and some of these would be recognised by both Jews and Christians in regards to the signs of the coming of their Messiah. Using Christian language we have Jesus the Christ fulfilling some of these prophecies and then the second coming of Christ fulfilling others.

The question I have is how can we know which verses refer to his first or second coming?

Do some verses relate to both?

Are there other meanings? For example the Jews would consider Isaiah 9:6-7 as referring to King Hezekiah.

Here are some examples to get us started:

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13:10

"Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." Isaiah 40:4-5

There are many more.

 

[wizanda]

There are many more.

When we do a jigsaw, we build the edges first i.e. take the large noticeable bits we can recognize (within a paragraph, in a chapter), and then build up edges (assigning matching sections, to matching bits).

Isaiah is like a big tapestry, a Bible words search with Strongs numbers is a great way to check keyword referencing by Isaiah.

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13:10

The word 'constellations' is referenced as being 'Orion', and Betelgeuse is set to blow soon....

It is a our nearest star, if it blows it may affect earth as well, which could explain many prophecies about fire, and the stars falling.

Isaiah 40:4-5

If we read down to Isaiah 40:10, we find this then repeated in Isaiah 62:11.

The question I have is how can we know which verses refer to his first or second coming?

By what is stated within the timeline, what has actually happened, and what is predicted, by creating enough of the jigsaw we see some of the picture.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The question I have is how can we know which verses refer to his first or second coming?

Do some verses relate to both?

No presumptions here ...

 

[Dawnofhope]

No presumptions here ...

Of course

We all make presumptions based on our world views and ideologies. I'm aware that Jews would see no verses in the Tanakh as referring to Jesus. Feel free to debate why this would be so.

 

[fantome profane]

The book of Isaiah is an outstanding work in the Old Testament that would distinguish Isaiah as one of the greatest prophets of his time. It contains numerous messianic verses and some of these would be recognised by both Jews and Christians in regards to the signs of the coming of their Messiah. Using Christian language we have Jesus the Christ fulfilling some of these prophecies and then the second coming of Christ fulfilling others.

The question I have is how can we know which verses refer to his first or second coming?

Do some verses relate to both?

Are there other meanings? For example the Jews would consider Isaiah 9:6-7 as referring to King Hezekiah.

Here are some examples to get us started:

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine." Isaiah 13:10

"Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." Isaiah 40:4-5

There are many more.

As Jay already pointed out in his unique clever way, there is nothing in Isaiah that suggest the idea of a "second coming". Nor is there anything in the old testament that suggests such a thing. There is no reason to think that any verse refers to a "second coming".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Of course

We all make presumptions based on our world views and ideologies. I'm aware that Jews would see no verses in the Tanakh as referring to Jesus. Feel free to debate why this would be so.

We both know it would be a waste of time.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We both know it would be a waste of time.

That's a little pessimistic

Jesus the Christ
- Jewish religious leader who became the central figure in Christianity.
- Despite teaching for only 3 ½ years and crucified to death by His own people nearly 2000 years ago His message spread far and wide. His religion is the most widespread on the planet with 2.2 billion adherents worldwide (cf 14,000,000 Judaism). Recognised to be the awaited Messiah in the Hebrew Bible by His followers. Is considered by Islam (1.6 billion adherents) as being one of God’s important prophets.
- "Son of God"
- Questionable descent through male lineage to any physical kings and no known children.
- Earthly parents humble Godly people.

I'm neither a Christian or Muslim. Why do you think so many people have got it wrong?

 

[Dawnofhope]

As Jay already pointed out in his unique clever way, there is nothing in Isaiah that suggest the idea of a "second coming". Nor is there anything in the old testament that suggests such a thing. There is no reason to think that any verse refers to a "second coming".

Of course. No second coming because no first coming. So how do you account for the facts above?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The word 'constellations' is referenced as being 'Orion', and Betelgeuse is set to blow soon....

It is a our nearest star, if it blows it may affect earth as well, which could explain many prophecies about fire, and the stars falling.

Interesting!

Do you believe the verses could me metaphorical, or do they need literal interpretation? Perhaps its both.

 

[fantome profane]

Of course. No second coming because no first coming. So how do you account for the facts above?

I honestly don't see anything that needs to be accounted for? Could you be more specific and explain to me what facts you think need to be accounted for?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I honestly don't see anything that needs to be accounted for? Could you be more specific and explain to me what facts you think need to be accounted for?

See post #7

 

[fantome profane]

See post #7

I was referring to post seven when I said I don't see anything here that needs to be accounted for. I am trying to honestly engage you here, but unless you can explain to me why those things need accounting for my responses are going to be along the line of "so what?" and "what is your point?", and perhaps "what does that have to do with Isaiah and the fact that the old testament says nothing about a second coming."

Ok

- Jewish religious leader who became the central figure in Christianity.

Yes, so what? What is your point? Why do I need to account for this?

- Despite teaching for only 3 ½ years and crucified to death by His own people nearly 2000 years ago His message spread far and wide. His religion is the most widespread on the planet with 2.2 billion adherents worldwide (cf 14,000,000 Judaism). Recognised to be the awaited Messiah in the Hebrew Bible by His followers. Is considered by Islam (1.6 billion adherents) as being one of God’s important prophets.

Yes, so what? What does this have to do with what Isaiah said about the Messiah? The various people who wrote the book of Isaiah were Jewish, and lived and died long before the events you are describing. And they made no reference to a "second coming".

- "Son of God"

What is your point?

- Questionable descent through male lineage to any physical kings and no known children.

What are you saying? What is your point?

- Earthly parents humble Godly people.

What is your point? What does this have to do with the book of Isaiah or the fact that it says nothing about a "second coming"

I'm neither a Christian or Muslim. Why do you think so many people have got it wrong?

I am neither a Christian, nor a Muslim, nor a Jew. But those who wrote Isaiah were Jewish, and I can understand that. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here or what you think needs to be accounted for.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

...

- Jewish religious leader who became the central figure in Christianity.
- Despite teaching for only 3 ½ years and crucified to death by His own people nearly 2000 years ago His message spread far and wide.

You presume much.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am trying to honestly engage you here

Then that's the best starting point. Maybe we take a step back.

I'm a Baha'i I believe in God who is an unknowable essence. I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. The book Of Isaiah which is part of the sacred texts for both Jews and Christians has prophetic verses which include references to a Messiah. I want to better understand those verses and am interested in having a discussion with anyone else who does too. Clearly the Jews and Christians have very different ideas about the meaning of those verses. The Baha'is would find agreement with both Jews and Christians and have different opinions about some verses.

While I believe that Jesus has fulfilled some of the prophecies in Isaiah, I have attempted to make this OP inclusive for any Jews who would want to contribute. Here's what I wrote:

"Using Christian language we have Jesus the Christ fulfilling some of these prophecies and then the second coming of Christ fulfilling others.

The question I have is how can we know which verses refer to his first or second coming?

Do some verses relate to both?

Are there other meanings? For example the Jews would consider Isaiah 9:6-7 as referring to King Hezekiah."

I'm seeking a reasoned and courteous discussion with anyone who is interested in the book of Isaiah. What is your worldview and is this OP in the 'scripture debate' section of any interest to you. If so, why?

 

[fantome profane]

Then that's the best starting point. Maybe we take a step back.

I'm a Baha'i I believe in God who is an unknowable essence. I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. The book Of Isaiah which is part of the sacred texts for both Jews and Christians has prophetic verses which include references to a Messiah. I want to better understand those verses and am interested in having a discussion with anyone else who does too. Clearly the Jews and Christians have very different ideas about the meaning of those verses. The Baha'is would find agreement with both Jews and Christians and have different opinions about some verses.

While I believe that Jesus has fulfilled some of the prophecies in Isaiah, I have attempted to make this OP inclusive for any Jews who would want to contribute. Here's what I wrote:

"Using Christian language we have Jesus the Christ fulfilling some of these prophecies and then the second coming of Christ fulfilling others.

The question I have is how can we know which verses refer to his first or second coming?

Do some verses relate to both?

Are there other meanings? For example the Jews would consider Isaiah 9:6-7 as referring to King Hezekiah."

I'm seeking a reasoned and courteous discussion with anyone who is interested in the book of Isaiah. What is your worldview and is this OP in the 'scripture debate' section of any interest to you. If so, why?

I am an atheist. I believe that "God" is an idea invented by humans. Christians, Muslims, and Jews share some common ideas about God, but also some differences. And they certainly have different ideas about the Messiah. I don't believe that Jesus has fulfilled any of the messianic prophecies in Isaiah nor from anywhere else in the Old Testament. And I certainly do not believe he is going to come back and fulfil them in the future. But what I believe or don't believe is not the point. The question as I understand it is what does the book of Isaiah say and what does it refer to.

And clearly the book of Isaiah was not written "Using Christian language". And I don't see any reason to think that any verse in that book was intended to refer to a "second coming", and you have not given me any reason to think so, you have not even made it clear which verses you think refer to the second coming (if any) or why you would think so.

I find the subject interesting from a historical, cultural, anthropological perspective. And my personal beliefs aside I enjoy discussing it. If you have any reasons to think that something in the book of Isaiah points to a second coming I would be eager to hear it. But if you are just going to say Christians believe in a second coming, therefore the Jews who wrote Isaiah must be referring to a second coming, that does not work for me. That would, as Jay says, presume too much.

I think the clearest and best answer to your question is we can know that none of the verses in Isaiah refer to a second coming because that was not a belief of the Jews who wrote it. If you have anything to contradict that answer, please present it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am an atheist. I believe that "God" is an idea invented by humans. Christians, Muslims, and Jews share some common ideas about God, but also some differences. And they certainly have different ideas about the Messiah. I don't believe that Jesus has fulfilled any of the messianic prophecies in Isaiah nor from anywhere else in the Old Testament. And I certainly do not believe he is going to come back and fulfil them in the future. But what I believe or don't believe is not the point. The question as I understand it is what does the book of Isaiah say and what does it refer to.

And clearly the book of Isaiah was not written "Using Christian language". And I don't see any reason to think that any verse in that book was intended to refer to a "second coming", and you have not given me any reason to think so, you have not even made it clear which verses you think refer to the second coming (if any) or why you would think so.

I find the subject interesting from a historical, cultural, anthropological perspective. And my personal beliefs aside I enjoy discussing it. If you have any reasons to think that something in the book of Isaiah points to a second coming I would be eager to hear it. But if you are just going to say Christians believe in a second coming, therefore the Jews who wrote Isaiah must be referring to a second coming, that does not work for me. That would, as Jay says, presume too much.

I think the clearest and best answer to your question is we can know that none of the verses in Isaiah refer to a second coming because that was not a belief of the Jews who wrote it. If you have anything to contradict that answer, please present it.

Thank you. It obviously helps to know what our beliefs are before starting such a discussion. Clearly Isaiah was not written using Christian language as Christ was not to appear for many hundreds of years. However Jesus was a Jew and His audience was almost entirely Jewish. This is important in that He taught using concepts from the Hebrew Bible. The Gospels writers clearly understood that. For example the book of Matthew has over 60 references to the Hebrew bible.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

The word Christ (Greek Christos) means anointed or chosen one. It can also mean Messiah

Some commonly understood references to Jesus fulfilling prophecies in the OT include:

Jesus' name will be 'Immanuel'. Matthew 1:22-3, Isaiah 7:14

'Out of Egypt I called my son'. Mt 2:18. Hos 11:1

A ruler will come from Bethlehem. Mt 2:6, Mic 5.2

The massacre of the innocents. Mt 2:18, Jer 31:15

Beyond the Jordan, the people who sat in darkness saw a great light. Mt 4:15, Isa 9:1-2

He Himself took our infirmities/ and bore our sicknesses. Mt 8:17, Isa 53:4

Prophetic praise of Jesus, His character and ministry to the Gentiles. Mt 12:18-21, Isa 42:1-4

He will speak in parables. Mt 13:35, Ps 78:2

The Messiah will enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Mt 21:4-5, Zech 9:9

There are many more.

Isaiah had close association with the King Hezekiah of Judea. At this stage the Kingdom of the Hebrew peoples was divided into Israel and Judea. Israel had not long fallen to the Assyrians and Hezekiah distinguished himself as a righteous King who successfully resisted the Assyrians.

The Jews are waiting for a Messiah and many of the verses that refer to this Messiah are in Isaiah.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

There is some clarity if one believes in the NT that Jesus fulfilled some of the OT prophecies. It is assumed that with the Messiah's return ALL the prophecies will be fulfilled.

Both the examples I provided in the initial OP are examples of prophecies of Isaiah that I believe Jesus fulfilled. However because the language is symbolic the evidence becomes circumstantial.

 

[fantome profane]

Thank you. It obviously helps to know what our beliefs are before starting such a discussion. Clearly Isaiah was not written using Christian language as Christ was not to appear for many hundreds of years. However Jesus was a Jew and His audience was almost entirely Jewish. This is important in that He taught using concepts from the Hebrew Bible. The Gospels writers clearly understood that. For example the book of Matthew has over 60 references to the Hebrew bible.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

The word Christ (Greek Christos) means anointed or chosen one. It can also mean Messiah

Some commonly understood references to Jesus fulfilling prophecies in the OT include:

Jesus' name will be 'Immanuel'. Matthew 1:22-3, Isaiah 7:14

'Out of Egypt I called my son'. Mt 2:18. Hos 11:1

A ruler will come from Bethlehem. Mt 2:6, Mic 5.2

The massacre of the innocents. Mt 2:18, Jer 31:15

Beyond the Jordan, the people who sat in darkness saw a great light. Mt 4:15, Isa 9:1-2

He Himself took our infirmities/ and bore our sicknesses. Mt 8:17, Isa 53:4

Prophetic praise of Jesus, His character and ministry to the Gentiles. Mt 12:18-21, Isa 42:1-4

He will speak in parables. Mt 13:35, Ps 78:2

The Messiah will enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Mt 21:4-5, Zech 9:9

There are many more.

Isaiah had close association with the King Hezekiah of Judea. At this stage the Kingdom of the Hebrew peoples was divided into Israel and Judea. Israel had not long fallen to the Assyrians and Hezekiah distinguished himself as a righteous King who successfully resisted the Assyrians.

The Jews are waiting for a Messiah and many of the verses that refer to this Messiah are in Isaiah.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

There is some clarity if one believes in the NT that Jesus fulfilled some of the OT prophecies. It is assumed that with the Messiah's return ALL the prophecies will be fulfilled.

Both the examples I provided in the initial OP are examples of prophecies of Isaiah that I believe Jesus fulfilled. However because the language is symbolic the evidence becomes circumstantial.

But I want to hold you to the original question. I want to understand what you are trying to say.

Do you have any reason to think that any of these "prophecies" coming from Isaiah refer to the second coming? Of all the quotes you list here only one of them is from Isaiah. Is that referring to the second coming in your opinion? Do you have any quote from Isaiah that in your opinion refers to the second coming? Do you have any quote from anything in the OT that refers to the second coming?

 

[Dawnofhope]

But I want to hold you to the original question. I want to understand what you are trying to say.

Do you have any reason to think that any of these "prophecies" coming from Isaiah refer to the second coming? Of all the quotes you list here only one of them is from Isaiah. Is that referring to the second coming in your opinion? Do you have any quote from Isaiah that in your opinion refers to the second coming? Do you have any quote from anything in the OT that refers to the second coming?

Here's the ones from Isaiah:

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord." Isaiah 2:1-6

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this." Isaiah 9: 6-7

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." Isaiah 11:6-9

Also

Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City."

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11–17)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again
(Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

So that's the starting point. You can see why I choose Isaiah rather than any other book in the OT. If I had chosen the entire OT this list of verses would have probably exceeded 200. Probably the best verses for us to have a discussion are the first three I have quoted in full.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You presume much.

Perhaps. I'm interested in your views on verses that the Jews might consider Messianic. See post #18.

 

[fantome profane]

Here's the ones from Isaiah:

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord." Isaiah 2:1-6

Ok, now tell me why you think this refers to the second coming? I don't see any references here to coming back to do this, or this is what he will do on the second visit, or the messiah will leave before this happens but he will be back.

And I could repeat that question for all of the quotes you have here.

Here's the ones from Isaiah:

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord." Isaiah 2:1-6

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever."
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this." Isaiah 9: 6-7

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." Isaiah 11:6-9

Also

Isaiah 1:26: "And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City."

The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11–17)

Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)

There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

All of the dead will rise again
(Isaiah 26:19)

The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)

So that's the starting point. You can see why I choose Isaiah rather than any other book in the OT. If I had chosen the entire OT this list of verses would have probably exceeded 200. Probably the best verses for us to have a discussion are the first three I have quoted in full.

Why do any of these refer to the second coming and not the first? Where do any of these quotes suggest there will be a second coming?