The manosphere and "alpha male" influencers

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I am wondering: do American women really want American men to be nice, sweet and so on?
Because if women convince men to be that way, the alpha-male culture will soon disappear.

Actually, I've seen far too much anecdotal evidence that a lot of women really are attracted to what we used to call (in my long-ago youth) "bad boys."

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'm game.

Anarchy doesn't actually work.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Because a wolf pack is a family unit. And a marriage confers a family unit.

Newsflash: people aren't animals.

 

[The Hammer]

Newsflash: people aren't animals.

Newsflash: We absolutely are (category is primate - Great Ape).

"Humans are the most abundant and widespread species of primate, characterized by bipedalism and large, complex brains."

 

[Stevicus]

I think I'd rather go more to the root of these issues, and position the concepts and activities in observation, as social products. I'd rather look for example, at the cost of an average american house, and how many can afford it, as a predictor of social trends which are surely all downstream from that. If you ramp it up enough, I think it stimulates artificial competition, and basically acts as a narrowing filter for general success, from the mere marital to beyond.

People are listening to tate, or making analogies of themselves to wolves etc, because I think they got it set up so we all have to furiously chase money. Just as one small example, look up the price of an average marriage day - I don't remember what it was, but I'm sure it keeps going up. Look at the price of an average american birth

Conversely, if everyone had the right to a piece of land when they are born, and didn't have as many obligatory bills, then there wouldn't be as much near-obligatory selection pressure for money chasing. And that seems to be what our society is doing, is applying evolutionary selection pressure to filter for people who like making tons of money

I think you've summed quite nicely here where a lot of the current problem seems to come from. At least since the Reagan era, there's been this constant push towards more consumerism and the "greed is good" philosophy, while capitalism and competition in general have become more predatory.

I agree that there is, as you put it, a "money chase," and that has pervaded throughout a large part of the culture and has influenced how people perceive and react to the world around them. It hasn't affected everybody obviously, but it is prevalent enough to be influential on the culture. It is, in effect, what some might call social Darwinism, which relies upon natural law as a justification, just as those who speak of "alpha males" also use a form of natural law to justify their beliefs.

This is where it can get contradictory and people might be trying to digest mixed messages. It would better for all if people were more cooperative and didn't display hostile or aggressive tendencies often associated with other toxic behaviors. But on the other hand, the real world is what it is, and youngsters are thrown into it and get their "baptism by fire," so to speak. It is predatory, it is dog-eat-dog, and there's a lot of competition in that chase for money and to scratch and claw one's way up the ladder.

 

[Stevicus]

Really? I think the opposite, actually...

That's what I came across recently, although I've heard it in the past as well. I've never been to Italy, so I really wouldn't know. A lot of stuff floats around on the internet, but it's hard to say how much of it is true. If I find a link to the story, I'll post it.

Finding a real heterosexual man nowadays is like asking for the moon.

I have lots of female friends...zero male friends.
They all say the average male is either a metrosexual or a male that won't date any woman, unless she looks like Miss Italy.

I remember hearing the term "metrosexual" for the first time many years ago. Before that, I think they were called "city slickers." I thought it was more of a joke about urban fads and fashions, not really a comment on someone's sexuality. But I've always had a general resistance to terms like that.

 

[Stevicus]

I find it kind of silly because it unnecessarily puts men in competition with each other since we all want to be "alpha males," right? If there's an alpha, that assumes there must be a beta.

If I remember right, there were men's groups in the 70s that focused on men supporting each other in more healthy emotional ways, recognizing that men also need emotional support and can lean on each other for support. This description from the "manosphere" sounds extremely unhealthy.

I recall some of that, too, although some people tend to look back on it somewhat pejoratively as the "sensitive male" movement, which (like a lot of ideas back then) fell by the wayside with the advent of the Reagan era. That's when things started to shift towards what we have now. From that point, while social progress didn't really go backwards, it didn't go forward either. It went sideways and kind of meandered to the point we're at now.

It does seem quite unhealthy, so I agree with you on that point. I see various articles and threads on how there's so much hate and vitriol on the internet, and one wonders where it comes from. I think this is one of the sore spots in question, this "manosphere." I'm not entirely unsympathetic, especially to some of the younger men who are struggling through various life troubles and turmoil that many of us have gone through. But it does seem disconcerting that they can't turn anywhere else for help but these self-appointed gurus and experts on what it means to be a man?

It also appears that it wasn't really formed in a vacuum, though it does appear to give off a rather twisted and disjointed reflection of what one might often see in popular culture. Even going back to the 70s, one of the popular shows was Happy Days, and the character of Fonzie was kind of a hero among the other kids at school. Why? Because all he had to do was snap his fingers and girls would come running to him, while Richie and Potsie struggled by comparison. (But even Fonzie would eventually jump the shark, literally.)

Or this meme which has somehow captivated a major sub-culture in America (and quite likely other countries):

Of course, this is also unhealthy and toxic thinking, but to some extent, it's also become deeply embedded and somehow appeals to one's more primal instincts. I think it's probably a sign that we still have some growing up to do in this country, and it might mean changing the way a lot of things are done.

 

[Estro Felino]

Actually, I've seen far too much anecdotal evidence that a lot of women really are attracted to what we used to call (in my long-ago youth) "bad boys."

That is why Italian women are the opposite.
Bad boys are a no, no, no here. They prefer the nice, sweet boys.
So, I was right. American women do kinda play a role.

 

[Stevicus]

That is why Italian women are the opposite.
Bad boys are a no, no, no here. They prefer the nice, sweet boys.
So, I was right. American women do kinda play a role.

I think it's kind of a mixed bag here, as it seems to vary among age groups, regions, and sub-cultures. Despite whatever social changes and progressive ideas have permeated, there are still large sections of America which remain rather provincial and traditional in a lot of ways.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think it's kind of a mixed bag here, as it seems to vary among age groups, regions, and sub-cultures. Despite whatever social changes and progressive ideas have permeated, there are still large sections of America which remain rather provincial and traditional in a lot of ways.

Surely, yes. But I have remarked that body-building centers are looking more and more like gay dating places...because in the temples of hyper-masculinity these men are shielded and safe from the pink, mawkish, and hyper-romantic culture women impose on their (future) partners.
And so...you see hyper-masculine metrosexual men who date each other, whereas the nice sweet boys with a laid-back physique dating women.
But that's just a feeling, an impression, sorry for over-generalizing.

 

[HeatherAnn]

After listening to Tate, who my son had been listening to, & my son was acting a bit more disrespectful, I told him how I appreciated some good Tate stood for, but pointed out bad aspects & told him to stop listening to him. I’m not an extreme feminist, but I do see the need to respect women.

Jordan Peterson suggested motherhood should be appreciated & respected in cultures - since it is the means by which we all are born.

Some “male leaders” are healthier than others. I don’t agree with Peterson on all, but I’ve learned a lot from him (ie psychological interpretations of Bible parables). A pastor asked Jordan Peterson why so many men attended his lectures because so many men were leaving churches. Peterson said he thought it was because a lot of institutions are shaming men or making them into women & men were looking for something better. Men also wanted someone to challenge them, rather than “Pat him on the head & say you’re fine” when he’s struggling & wants to know what he can do to be better.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It does seem quite unhealthy, so I agree with you on that point. I see various articles and threads on how there's so much hate and vitriol on the internet, and one wonders where it comes from. I think this is one of the sore spots in question, this "manosphere." I'm not entirely unsympathetic, especially to some of the younger men who are struggling through various life troubles and turmoil that many of us have gone through. But it does seem disconcerting that they can't turn anywhere else for help but these self-appointed gurus and experts on what it means to be a man?

So I gave tate a bit more viewing since I posted, and I went to see if he has a book. Turns out he has a book, and if you would, go to amazon and look at his book, 'the tate bible.' Click on the sample, and read what the chapter headings are

Ok, I want to maneuver in another point here, if I can. As many people know, I work in a factory, as a material handler. I work with many immigrants, from a lot of different countries around the world. Now one thing I notice, is that there are many people that come in, as married couples in their early twenties. So what I observe in this, is that in other cultures in comparison to ours, there often must be a strong marriage tradition. They marry without a lot of money, young, and even work together

Now our american culture, has turned into pick up artist culture (called PUAs). You can go and read a whole stack of books by PUA's. There are PUA's that are in their 30's and 40's, giving advice. There are blogs, forum posts, videos, and more, all in great length, talking about all the things a man needs to do, to build up manosphere energy. But the thing is, I think all of the energy that goes into all of that, does not seem to reflect a marriage culture. That's somehow not what it is about at all. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I know something's off