The Mahdi in the Quran.

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran doesn't talk in Riddles, it explains and repeatedly explains it's own verses. The context is about destroyed cities and nations, and it's saying, not to wait for such a catastrophe but to prepare and believe so as to avoid the catastrophe that cities faced.

There is nothing ambiguous in Quran, with reflection, all of it is clear. Non-clarity with respect to Quran comes from our injustice, desires, and lack of reflection and the dark sorcery.

Anyways, I think I will be looking at all the verses that talk about "wait..."... If we look at them all, they will clearly interpret each other.

Then why verse 3:7 says some of its verses are unclear?


"He it is Who has sent down the Book upon thee; therein are signs determined; they are the Mother of the Book, and others symbolic. As for those whose hearts are given to swerving, they follow that of it which is symbolic, seeking temptation and seeking its interpretation. And none know its interpretation save God and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say, “We believe in it; all is from our Lord.” And none remember, save those who possess intellect." 3:7

Do you consider yourself firmly rooted in knowledge?

 

[Link]

Then why verse 3:7 says some of its verses are unclear?

It doesn't say that, we've discussed this before.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We are not in school here. If you have an explanation, if you know something you have to share it with people.
This is how it works.



Like I said, if you know something then show the verses and maybe i missed it.

Again i'm not a fan of threads that are long for nothing. I'm not into discussions that last forever for nothing.
Just give once and for all the verses and let discuss about it. That's supposed to be the topic ...



Salam. I don't understand.
You are just giving another point of view not that different from me, while you said it was about the Mahdi.
So it's not about the Mahdi just like i said. Thanks.



Ok. When you'll finally decided we are ready and it's the good time to show us your verses, then maybe I'll come back take a look.

I did give an example in post #25. You can discuss that, if you want.

Quran is a clear book, when all its verses are pondered on. It becomes an unclear book, when we do not take into account all its verses. People of the book, believed only part of their book and disregarded a part. This might be the reason, they did not see the prophecies about future prophets, such as Muhammad. I am just trying to present the related verses which makes the verses regarding Mahdi clear to me. It is not that I am making it a school for you. I am not a teacher!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It doesn't say that, we've discussed this before.

A hadith attributed to Muhammad is essential in understanding the inward aspects of the Quran, and it is fundamental to Quranic exegesis:[9]

"The Quran possesses an external appearance and a hidden depth, an exoteric meaning and an esoteric meaning. This esoteric meaning in turn conceals an esoteric meaning so it goes on for seven esoteric meanings (seven depths of hidden depth)."
There is a statement made by the Imam, Jafar Sadiq (d. 765 CE):[9]

"The book of God comprises four things: the statement set down, the allusions, the hidden meanings relating to the supra-sensible world, and the exalted spiritual doctrines. The literal statement is for the ordinary believers. The allusions are the concern of the elite. The hidden meanings pertain to the friends of God. The exalted spiritual doctrines are the province of the prophets."


Esoteric interpretation of the Quran - Wikipedia

 

[TransmutingSoul]

[Shakir 10:102] What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait.
[Pickthal 10:102] What expect they save the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Expect then! I am with you among the expectant.
[Yusufali 10:102] Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: "Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you."
ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي رُسُلَنَا وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ حَقًّا عَلَيْنَا نُنْجِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ {103}
[Shakir 10:103] Then We deliver Our messengers and those who believe-- even so (now), it is binding on Us (that) We deliver the believers.
[Pickthal 10:103] Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers, in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent upon Us to save believers.
[Yusufali 10:103] In the end We deliver Our messengers and those who believe: Thus is it fitting on Our part that We should deliver those who believe!


Let's start with these two verses. I believe they for-warn about the Mahdi.

There are more verses that contextualize the above, and the waiting of disbelievers vs the waiting of believers, but God has sent many who God delivers the believers by and it's still upon him to deliver the believers from their oppressors.

I will start with these two verses and we will see that a lot if not most of the Quran warnings are regarding the Mahdi.

So can you explain the verse ?

This is what I see in those verses

[Shakir 10:102] What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait. This is a warning like all events for all other messengers, that is waiting for the Messenger when the Messenger already has come. I see this has deeper special meaning in that this foretells of two Messengers. First of the Bab's Message and people waiting for the Mahdi also have a 2nd Messenger among them, also waiting for the day of the Bab's Message to be pronounced
[Pickthal 10:102] What expect they save the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Expect then! I am with you among the expectant. This Is when the Bab declares His Message from God and Baha'ullah is One of those that accepted the Bab.
[Yusufali 10:102] Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: "Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you." This proves that the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are to be treated exactly as days gone before, there is never a whole scale miraculous display that all past believers except, there is no special people but those that accept Gods New Message. They become the carriers of the new Message. One may offer they are the Jews of the the new Jerusalem, or they are the True Islam.
[Shakir 10:103] Then We deliver Our messengers and those who believe-- even so (now), it is binding on Us (that) We deliver the believers. This is self Explanatory, how did the Baha'i Faith survive such an all out assault against it by Islam? How did it get to the Holy Land if not delivered there by God? This I see is the Declaration of Baha'u'llah and unfolds in the verses to come;
[Pickthal 10:103] Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers, in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent upon Us to save believers. This is also again self Explanatory. The Bab and Baha'u'llah now have every race from every Nation giving respect to them in the worship of our One God and the followers, the Baha'i have been saved. Every Messenger gone before and every believer in them are now also vindicated by the Message of Baha'u'llah, all Gods Faiths are proven and now loved by all Baha'i.
[Yusufali 10:103] In the end We deliver Our messengers and those who believe: Thus is it fitting on Our part that We should deliver those who believe! This is also again self Explanatory and proof the Mahdi will be another Messenger, how many times does Muhammad have to tell us, 3 verses Muhammad warns us not to reject Messengers, but believe in them and become delivered and when we do it is Befitting Muhammad promised it would happen. The Bible contains all this story in Revelation as well, but of course told in a different way, as it also gives the Message of Muhammad and of Ali (the Two Witnesses), all yet to come.

That is how I see that part of the Quran. Thank you for asking Regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm sorry, didn't do it purposely.

Thank you. I enjoy threads such as this, even though I know they are a challenge for those that wait for the Mahdi.

It is hard for a Baha'i to explain a Love for God and the Quran and for the Messenger that recited that book from God to a Muslim. In the end I see the Muslim will have to ask, why does the Baha'i Faith keep changing hearts, despite all the attempts to rid it from the world startting in 1844 or AH1260

Are you aware of the year 60 Hadith? I am aware many Christians were waiting for 1844 and some Muslim branches had expectations of 1260, which is the same year.

Regards Tony

 

[SaintUriah]

[Shakir 10:102] What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait.
[Pickthal 10:102] What expect they save the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Expect then! I am with you among the expectant.
[Yusufali 10:102] Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: "Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you."
ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي رُسُلَنَا وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ حَقًّا عَلَيْنَا نُنْجِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ {103}
[Shakir 10:103] Then We deliver Our messengers and those who believe-- even so (now), it is binding on Us (that) We deliver the believers.
[Pickthal 10:103] Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers, in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent upon Us to save believers.
[Yusufali 10:103] In the end We deliver Our messengers and those who believe: Thus is it fitting on Our part that We should deliver those who believe!


Let's start with these two verses. I believe they for-warn about the Mahdi.

There are more verses that contextualize the above, and the waiting of disbelievers vs the waiting of believers, but God has sent many who God delivers the believers by and it's still upon him to deliver the believers from their oppressors.

I will start with these two verses and we will see that a lot if not most of the Quran warnings are regarding the Mahdi.

No mahdi in Quran

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is what I see in those verses

[Shakir 10:102] What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait. This is a warning like all events for all other messengers, that is waiting for the Messenger when the Messenger already has come. I see this has deeper special meaning in that this foretells of two Messengers. First of the Bab's Message and people waiting for the Mahdi also have a 2nd Messenger among them, also waiting for the day of the Bab's Message to be pronounced
[Pickthal 10:102] What expect they save the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Expect then! I am with you among the expectant. This Is when the Bab declares His Message from God and Baha'ullah is One of those that accepted the Bab.
[Yusufali 10:102] Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: "Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you." This proves that the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are to be treated exactly as days gone before, there is never a whole scale miraculous display that all past believers except, there is no special people but those that accept Gods New Message. They become the carriers of the new Message. One may offer they are the Jews of the the new Jerusalem, or they are the True Islam.
[Shakir 10:103] Then We deliver Our messengers and those who believe-- even so (now), it is binding on Us (that) We deliver the believers. This is self Explanatory, how did the Baha'i Faith survive such an all out assault against it by Islam? How did it get to the Holy Land if not delivered there by God? This I see is the Declaration of Baha'u'llah and unfolds in the verses to come;
[Pickthal 10:103] Then shall We save Our messengers and the believers, in like manner (as of old). It is incumbent upon Us to save believers. This is also again self Explanatory. The Bab and Baha'u'llah now have every race from every Nation giving respect to them in the worship of our One God and the followers, the Baha'i have been saved. Every Messenger gone before and every believer in them are now also vindicated by the Message of Baha'u'llah, all Gods Faiths are proven and now loved by all Baha'i.
[Yusufali 10:103] In the end We deliver Our messengers and those who believe: Thus is it fitting on Our part that We should deliver those who believe! This is also again self Explanatory and proof the Mahdi will be another Messenger, how many times does Muhammad have to tell us, 3 verses Muhammad warns us not to reject Messengers, but believe in them and become delivered and when we do it is Befitting Muhammad promised it would happen. The Bible contains all this story in Revelation as well, but of course told in a different way, as it also gives the Message of Muhammad and of Ali (the Two Witnesses), all yet to come.

That is how I see that part of the Quran. Thank you for asking Regards Tony

Regards Tony

No mahdi in Quran

Yet I see there is?

That is our choice with Faith, that is life.

Regards Tony

 

[SaintUriah]

Yet I see there is?

That is our choice with Faith, that is life.

Regards Tony

If he was there, How would that help you

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If he was there, How would that help you

It is not about me, but it is all humanity that benefits, because the Mahdi and oh so much more, is in those verses.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Why Quran doesn't guide all humans? Why different interpretations?

I would like to start with the notion of why Quran is not guiding all humans in the same direction.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ وَلَا نَبِيٍّ إِلَّا إِذَا تَمَنَّىٰ أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنْسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ {52}
[22:52] And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he wished, the Shaitan made a casting respecting his wish; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah clarifies His signs and Allah is Knowing, Wise,
لِيَجْعَلَ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ فِتْنَةً لِلَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ مَرَضٌ وَالْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ {53}
[22:53] So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition,
وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَيُؤْمِنُوا بِهِ فَتُخْبِتَ لَهُ قُلُوبُهُمْ ۗ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهَادِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُسْتَقِيمٍ
[22:54] And that those who have been given the knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, so they may believe in it and their hearts may be lowly before it; and most surely Allah is the Guide of those who believe into a right path.
وَلَا يَزَالُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِنْهُ حَتَّىٰ تَأْتِيَهُمُ السَّاعَةُ بَغْتَةً أَوْ يَأْتِيَهُمْ عَذَابُ يَوْمٍ عَقِيمٍ {55}
[22:55] And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day.

According to these holy verses, there is dark forces at play with the Quran, and they cast regarding it, and it's not just with Quran, but it's true of all Prophets and Messengers, Satan and his forces cast spells to keep people from the true meaning so as to distort the will of that Messenger or Prophet.

The cast is a trial for those who's hearts are hard and a disease.

This verse links back to 3:7 so much so the words for that God establishes or clarifies his signs after is exactly the same word to say "from it comes clear signs, these are the origin/mother of the book." This why also Quran talks about the Jibt (sorcery) with respect to the Taghut (the False Idol) and says the latter is connected to the former "they believe in the Jibt and Taghut…".

3:7 shows people with a disease in their hearts follow that which is unclear from the Quran, following non-clear stuff from a book that is full of clear signs and proofs, is due to Satan and his forces. In this unclearness, a lot of falsehood is believed about Quran, God and Mohammad. The Quran shows however, the believers are guided in all times to the truth by their Lord. This is because they follow that which is best, which it's the clear signs from Quran and build only on what is clearly proven to them. The Quran itself says "and do not follow that which you have no knowledge of".

Taking verses out of their context.

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مِيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ {13}
[Shakir 5:13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).


It's obvious by the connection to the verse before about the covenant, they distorted mainly what they were taken upon per the covenant of Aaron and his chosen offspring, the Twelve Successors of Moses. They distorted first from taking verses out of their place, that is talking about them outside their context. Their hard hearts didn't intend to see what the verses say in their context and flow.

It was only after that, that they were able due to the abandoning God's Messengers in this regard, to distort the actual words of the Torah in this regard. But this is the first step, and fabrications with regard to the Sunnah of the Prophet is only possible in the same way, only possible when we abandon Quranic verses and take them out of their place.

The flow of Quran and Quran interpreting itself nature.

The Quran has a flow, and contextualizes it's verses through flow, but also through similar repeated themes and structure through out Quran, the verses interpret each other. God has calculated every single one of his words in Quran so that nothing is left unexplained by Quran itself. In this regard, I will quote a sermon of Imam Ali.

When a problem is put before anyone of them he passes judgement on it from his imagination. When exactly the same problem is placed before another of them he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their Allah is One (and the same), their Prophet is one (and the same), their Book (the Qur’an) is one (and the same)!

Is it that Allah ordered them to differ and they obeyed Him? Or He prohibited them from it but they disobeyed Him? Or (is it that) Allah sent an incomplete Faith and sought their help to complete it? Or they are His partners in the affairs, so that it is their share of duty to pronounce and He has to agree? Or is it that Allah the Glorified sent a perfect faith but the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over (to the people)? The fact is that Allah the Glorified says:

We have not neglected anything in the Book (Qur’an) . . . (6:38),

and in it is a ‘clarification of everything’ And He says that one part of the Qur’an verifies another part and that there is no divergence in it as He says:

.And if it had been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepancy. (4:82)

Certainly the outside of the Qur’an is wonderful and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its darkness (plural form) cannot be cleared except through itself.

This sermon shows the differences arose and Imam Ali comments on them. First condemnation is passing a judgement not on knowledge but imagination. The Quran also forbids attributing God what we do not know. Another person placed with another, they come with an opposite verdict. This means they can’t all be correct. Then the chief that appointed them confirms all their verdicts. This is exactly how Taqlid is done today. They differ but it’s accepted that we can follow any of them. Obviously the chief appointing them didn’t want to say both judgments are true, rather, he is saying which ever one you follow it doesn’t matter, for they are “attempting” to follow God and his Messenger.

Then Imam Ali begins with some rhetorical questions. God didn’t order them to differ rather we see in Quran, unity upon Quran and Sunnah is the advice, and not to differ. The notion that God wants us to differ and accepts the differences, is a notion we hold today. But the Quran has in fact commanded the opposite and said without understanding (Fiqh) our hearts will be divided even if people may think we are united.

The rope of God is meant to be a source of unity, but when it becomes a source of conflict and division, it’s obviously not guiding. So that poses the next question.

Or is it that God sent an incomplete faith? Certainly, God has sent a guidance and way to unite on guidance, so if we aren’t following that guidance, it’s due to rebellion and insincerity on our part.

The Imam shows then a more sinister intention in all this. He asks, that if they are in fact partners with God in the affair, and this goes to a verse in the 42nd chapter of Quran. The leader and guide Ali is showing that people who follow such leaders in fact, are associating with God heedlessly.

The Imam continues and then advices on the role of the Sunnah, he says or is it God sent a perfect religion, but the Prophet didn’t convey it and fell short of manifesting it?

He then refutes all these rhetorical questions and shows in fact, the Quran has an amazing quality of guiding humans through all their differences and it’s implied with the last reference to the Prophet, that the Sunnah compliments it and provides insight to it.

The Captain and Navigator of the ship of Salvation, Imam Ali, explains, that different parts of Quran explain different parts.

The last line is the most significant phrase for the purposes of the paradox of religion. Its darkness which is in plural form, mean all the type of darkness which is a hint to the verse 3:7 and what is meant by ambiguity from it is to be cleared through itself.

And the Quran clarifies itself, but through the help of Ahlulbayt (as). The Sunnah of the Messenger was complimenting the Quran as it was dynamically built.

And here while we should provide hadiths to clarify Quran, we have to prove at the end Quranic signs and insights by Quran insights, since hadiths can always be denied.

But as anyone can talk a bunch of nonsense about Quran any right interpretation must be supported by hadiths as well. When hadiths are shown there is weight to the words and explanation, and it becomes easier to see it in Quran.

Without hadiths to support, there is no reason to give weight to the words. We can see this in the notion, did the Prophet fall short of conveying. Similar rhetorical question, did Ahlulbayt (as) leave any aspect of the religion aside and not protected?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But as anyone can talk a bunch of nonsense about Quran any right interpretation must be supported by hadiths as well. When hadiths are shown there is weight to the words and explanation, and it becomes easier to see it in Quran.

Without hadiths to support, there is no reason to give weight to the words. We can see this in the notion, did the Prophet fall short of conveying. Similar rhetorical question, did Ahlulbayt (as) leave any aspect of the religion aside and not protected?

The writings of the Mahdi, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are full of quotes from the Quran and Hadiths.

The verse quoted above Shakir 5:13, is sound advice. What most people in a Faith think though, is it is not them that have distorted the meanings. The vast majority of Jews for an example would still offer they have not distorted the text, as would the Christians also say. In this age the Muslims still offer they have not.

More and more are seeing the Mahdi has come and if that is the case, that shows the distortion as complete and deep and still is.

But as that verse says ".... you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

It is those with good intent in their hearts, who do good for all others and prove it by actions, that still have true Islam within.

In the end, this is what transpires;

[22:55] And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

The debate between Imam Reda (as) and scholars about the difference between "the itra" and the "nation".


I will translate the hadith (or alter some translation online because it's not fully accurate), then comment on it:

Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) was attendant in a session that included the best scholars of Iraq and Khurasan when Al-Ma'mun asked them about the exegesis of God's saying: "Then we gave the book as an inheritance to those we chosen from among our servants so among them is who is oppressive to their souls, and so among is who is a middle course, and among them is who races ahead in good deeds by permission of God. This is indeed a great favor. They answered that the Verse refers to all the umma.

Al-Ma'mun then turned to Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) and asked for his opinion. The Imam answered: I do not agree with them. I say that God the Blessed refers to the immaculate family of the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) exclusively. Al-Ma'mun asked for an explanation. The Imam (peace be upon him) explained: If God referred to the umma, they all should be in Paradise. This is for His saying: …among them is who is oppressive to their souls, and so among is who is a middle course, and among them is who races ahead in good deeds by permission of God. This is indeed a great favor.

God then informs that all of them will be in Paradise. He the Majestic said:

They will enter the gardens of Eden… Thus, the Verse refers to the immaculate progeny of the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) exclusively. Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) then added: The immaculate progeny are those whom God describes in His Book by saying: People of the house, God wants to remove all kinds of uncleanness from you and to purify you thoroughly. The Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) said about them: "I am leaving among you the two weighty things- the Book of God and my progeny; my family. They will not depart each other until they will join me on the Divine Pool. Consider how will you regard me in treating them. O people, do not suggest to them, because they are more knowledgeable than you. The scholars asked Abul-Hasan (peace be upon him) whether the itra of the Prophet and the Prophet's aul are the same. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered that they are the same. The scholars claimed that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) is related to have said, "My umma is my family," and the Prophet's companions agreed unanimously on the fact that Mohammed's family is his umma. Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) worded:

Well, tell me whether it is lawful for Mohammed's family to have any alms in possession. "No, it is unlawful," answered the scholars. Then the Imam (peace be upon him) asked: Tell me whether it is lawful for the umma to have the alms in possession. "Yes, it is lawful for them," answered they. The Imam (peace be upon him) commented: This is one difference between Mohammed's family and the umma. Woe to you! Where are you misled? Do you ignore the Quran or are you transgressing people? Have you not known that this narrative is obviously dedicated to the guided choice ones exclusively? "How can you prove this, Abul-Hasan?" asked the scholars. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

This is clear in God's saying:

We sent Noah and Abraham and placed prophethood and the Book among their offsprings, some of whom have the right guidance. However, most of them are evildoers. Hence, the inheritance of the Book is dedicated to the guided ones, not the evildoers. In his supplication to his Lord, Noah said -as God relates in the Quran-: Lord, my son is a member of my family. Your promise is always true and you are the best Judge. He said so after God had promised to save his family and him. However, God the Exalted answered him: He is not one of your family. He is a man of unrighteous deeds. Do not ask me about that which you have no knowledge. I advise you not to become an ignorant person.

Al-Ma'mun asked: "Did God give distinction to the Prophet's family over people?" The Imam (peace be upon him) answered: God the Majestic the Omnipotent gave distinction of the Prophet's family over people in the Wise Book. Al-Ma'mun asked for examples, and the Imam (peace be upon him) cited: God says: God chose (and gave distinction to) Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham, and Imran over all the people of the world. They were the offspring of one another. In another place in the Quran, God says:

Are they jealous of God's grave over the humans? For We have given to the family of Abraham the Book, Wisdom, and a great Authority.(4:54) Then God refers this to the believers at whom he addressed: Believers, obey God and Obey His Messenger, and Those who hold the Authority from you. In the previous Verse, God refers to the qualified leaders to whom He gave the Book and wisdom in inheritance, but people envied them for these two things as He affirms in His saying: "Are they jealous of the favors that God has done to some people? We have given to the family of Abraham the Book, Wisdom, and a great Authority." The grace stand for the (obligatory) obedience to the immaculate choice ones and the great authority stands for the obedience to them.

"Does God the Elevated explains this selection in the Book?" asked the scholars. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered: God explains this selection obviously in twelve Verses in the Book and refers to it in many Verses whose meanings are hidden. First, it is explained in God's saying: And warn your nearest relations. Ubay bin Ka'b adds 'and your selected family,' to the previous Verse, and the addition is recorded in Abdullah bin Mas'ud's copy of the Holy Quran. When Othman (bin Affan) ordered Zaid bin Thabit to compile the Quran, he bypassed that statement, which is certainly a sublime standing, a great excellence, and a grand honor for the Prophet's family whom are exclusively stated in the previous Verse. [I will explain why Imam Reda (as) said this, it doesn't mean there is anything missing in Quran - it's referring to the war against the Sunnah and commentary from Companions by the first 3 Caliphs, will go into detail in this later]

The second Verse of the selection is God's saying: "God only desires to keep/remove the uncleanness away from you O people of the House and purify you a purification" Except the obstinate, no one can deny this merit because it is obviously clear. The third Verse of selection is that in which God gave distinction to the Immaculates over all others and ordered His Prophet in His saying: If anyone disputes (your prophesy) after knowledge has come to you, say, "Let each of us bring our children, women, and ourselves to one place and pray to God to condemn the liars among us."

The Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) carried out this order when he brought Ali, Al-Hasan, Al-Hussein, and Fatima (peace be upon them) for praying to God for condemning the lying party. Thus, God added them to the Prophet. Do you know the indication of God's saying: "…and ourselves…?" The scholars said: "This is the Prophet's personality."

Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) commented: This is not accurate. It is an indication to Ali (peace be upon him). This can be proved by the Prophet's saying: "Let the Luhai'as keep on doing so and I will subjugate them to a man who is like myself-Ali." No one can precede this particularity, disagree about this virtue, or overtake this honor. Thus, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) compared Ali's personality to his. The fourth Verse of selection is that when the Prophet ordered everybody to leave the Mosque except his family. People showed dissatisfaction for such a procedure and Al-Abbas discussed the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) in the question, but the Prophet answered: "It was not I who dismissed you all except Ali. It was God who did so." This is a clear explanation of the Prophet's saying to Ali: "Your relation to me is as same as Aaron's to Moses."

"What is the relation between this and the Quran?" asked the scholars. Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) answered: This is in the Quran in God's saying: We sent a revelation to Moses and his brother to build houses for their people in the Pharaoh's town and to build them facing one another. This Verse shows Aaron's relation to Moses. It also shows Ali's standing to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family). Besides, there is a clear evidence in the Prophet's saying: "Except Mohammed and Mohammed's family, all the ceremonially impure and the menstruant are forbidden from entering this Mosque."

"This explanation and evidence cannot be found with anyone other than you, the Prophet's family," said the scholars. Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) commented:

Who can deny this fact? The Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) said: "I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is its portal. He whoever betakes himself to the city of knowledge should first see its portal." The previous clear explanation of the virtue, honor, preference, selection, and immaculacy cannot be denied by anyone except the obstinate. All praise belongs to God for so. The fifth Verse of selection is God's saying:

Give the relatives their dues. Almighty God gave this particularity to the Prophet's family exclusively as a sign of their distinction over the umma. When this Verse was revealed to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family), he summoned Fatima, his daughter, and said to her, "Fadak is one of the territories that we did not exhaust our horses or camels to seize them; therefore, it is mine exclusively . Now, I gift it to you and your offspring according to God's instructions."

 

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The sixth Verse of the selection is God's saying:


(Muhammad), say, "I do not ask you for any reward except the love of the kin." This is a particularity for the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) and his family exclusively. Relating the sayings of Noah (peace be upon him), God the Majestic says: My people, I ask you no reward but that my reward is regarding God, do not drive away those who have faith (in my teaching); they will all receive mercy from their Lord. I know that you are ignorant people. Relating the sayings of Hood the prophet (peace be upon him), God says: My people, I do not ask any reward for it that my reward is regarding my Creator Will you then not take heed? For the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him and his family), God orders him:


Say, "I do not ask you for any reward except the love of the kin." God imposed the love of the Prophet's relatives only when He knows that they will never apostatize and they will never deviate. It happens that a man may bear any bit of malice in the heart for another, who is an intimate friend of him, when a member of the family of the previous is an opponent to the latter. On that account, God wants to make the Prophet's heart completely free of malice against the believers; therefore, he ordered them to love the Prophet's family. The Prophet then will not hate anybody who loves his family and him. In the same manner, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) will hate those who dislike his family, because they have ignored one of the duties of God. This is surely the most prominent honor.


When the previous Verse was revealed, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) addressed a sermon before his companions. He said: "All praise and gratitude is due to Allah. O people, God has imposed upon you a matter. Will you carry it out?" No one answered him. He therefore repeated the same on the second day. But nobody answered him, too. On the third day, he added: "O people, it is not gold, silver, food, or drink that you should pay." Thus, they asked what it was. The Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) then recited the Verse -"(Muhammad), say, I do not ask you for any reward except the love of the kin."-. They agreed to carry out this commandment. Unfortunately, most of them broke it.


My father related to me his fathers' relation that Al-Hussein bin Ali (peace be upon him) had narrated the following:


Muhajirs and Ansar came to the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) to offer him their estates and souls since -as they claimed- he had to spend great sums of his own wealth for his personal expenditures in addition to the continuous visits of the delegations. As a result, God the Majestic sent the Faithful Spirit -the Angel Gabriel- to convey to the Prophet His saying: "(Muhammad), say, I do not ask you for any reward except the love of the kin." This implies that you should not hurt my relatives after my death. As they left, some of them murmured, "He rejected our offers only for urging us accepting (the leadership of) his relatives after his death. This was surely something he himself invented in that session. They also said horrible things that made God reveal His saying: They say, "(Muhammad) has invented it by himself." Say, "Had I invented it, you would not have been able to rescue me from God. He knows best what you say about it. He is our witness and He is All-forgiving and All-merciful" Accordingly, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) summoned them and wondered whether they had done something due to which the Verse was revealed. They confessed that they had said horrible things. When the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) recited the Verse before them, they wept heavily. Hence, God revealed:


It is He who accepts the repentance of His servants, forgives their evil deeds and knows all about what you do. The seventh Verse of selection is God's saying: God showers His blessings upon the Prophet and the angels seek forgiveness for him. Believers, pray for the Prophet and greet him with, "Peace be with you."


All the obstinate realize that when this Verse was revealed, some people came to the Prophet and asked him to teach them how to pray for him. He (peace be upon him and his family) instructed, "Say: O Allah, bless Mohammed and Mohammed's family the way You blessed Abraham and Abraham's family. You are surely Praiseworthy and Glorious." Can any one of you disagree to this? "No, no one can," answered the scholars. Al-Ma'mun said, "This is a unanimous thing. However, we need something more evident about the Prophet's family excerpted from the Quran." Imam A-Reza (peace be upon him) said: God says:


Yasin, by the Quran, the Book of wisdom, you are a Messenger and you follow the right path. Who is that Yasin? "Undoubtedly," said the scholars, "Yasin is Mohammed." Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) commented: God has given to Mohammed and his family (peace be upon them) a characteristic that, except the heedful, no one can attain its meaning. In the Quran, God blesses no one save the prophets (peace be upon them). He the Exalted says: Peace be with Noah among all men in the worlds. Peace be with Abraham.


Peace be with Moses and Aaron. God, thus, does not bless the family of Noah, Abraham, or Moses. But He blesses Mohammed's family in His saying: Peace be with the family of Yasin. Yasin is Mohammed (peace be upon him and his family).


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Al-Ma'mun expressed, "I have already known that only the core of the prophecy can explain this clearly." Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) went on: The eighth Verse of selection is God's saying: Know that whatever property you may gain, one fifth belongs to God, the Messenger, the kindred, orphans, the needy and those who need money while on a journey. In the previous Verse, God adds the share of the Prophet's family to his share as well as the share of His Messenger. This is the distinction between the Prophet's family and the umma whom God has situated in a place and situated the Prophet's family in another higher place. Besides, Almighty God chooses to the Prophet's family what He chooses for Himself as He selected them. He begins with mentioning Himself, His Messenger, and then the kindred. This is operative not only in the distribution of the spoils of war, but also in everything that God accepts for Himself and for them. God says: Know that whatever property you may gain, one fifth belongs to God, the Messenger, the kindred…


This holy saying is an affirmative declaration and an everlasting commandment for them in the Book of God that, "Falsehood can not reach it from any direction. It is the revelation from the All-wise, Praiseworthy One." Regarding God's reference to the orphans and the needy, it is natural that the share of the orphan should be stopped when the feature of orphanage ceases to exist. The same thing can be said about the share of the needy. While, on the other hand, the share of the Prophet's kindred, whether they are needy or not, is incessant up to the Day of Resurrection, because no one is wealthier than God or the Prophet; however, their shares are incessant. God the Majestic has decided for the Prophet's family anything that He decides for Himself and His Messenger. As He decides for Himself and His Messenger a share in the spoils of war, He decides for the Prophet's family a share. He begins with Himself, His Messenger, and then His Messenger's family.


The same thing can be said about the commandment of obedience. God the Exalted says: Believers, obey God, His Messenger, and your (qualified) leaders. In the previous Verse, God begins with Himself, His Messenger, and then His Messenger's family. The same thing occurs in the Verse of Wilaya. God says: Only God, His Messenger, and the true believers who are steadfast in prayer and pay alms while they kneel during prayer, are your guardians -leaders-. In the previous Verse, God makes the leadership of the Prophet's family and the obedience to the Prophet connected to the obedience to Him. Likewise, He makes His share as well as His Messenger's share of spoils of war connected to the shares of the Prophet's family. All praise is due to Allah Who has given the Prophet's family the greatest grace. As God refers to the classes to whom the alms should be given, He deems Himself, His Messenger, and the prophet's family far above them. He the Exalted says:


Alms are only for the poor, the destitute, the tax collectors, those whose hearts are inclined (towards Islam), the slaves, those who cannot pay their debts, for the cause of God, and for those who have become needy on a journey. It is an obligation that God has decreed. God is All-knowing and All-wise. You cannot find any indication to God, His Messenger, and the Prophet's family with the above-mentioned classes. This is because God has deemed Himself, His Messenger, and The Messenger's family far above receiving the alms. Moreover, He has deemed unlawful for Mohammed and his family to receive anything of the alms, because alms are only the dirt of people, and it is unlawful for the Prophet and his family to enjoy the dirt of people because they are purified against any dirt or filth. In fine, because God has purified and selected the Prophet's family exclusively, He accepts for them only what He accepts for Himself and dislikes for them only what He dislikes for Himself. The ninth verse of selection is God's saying:


Ask the family of the Reminder if you do not know. We -the Prophet's family- are the family of the Reminder. "In this Verse," spoke the scholars, "God refers to the Christians and the Jews."


Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) answered: How is this acceptable? If it so, then God is asking us to follow their religion, and they can claim that their religion is better than Islam! "O Abul-Hasan," said Al-Ma'mun, "Do you have an explanation opposing the scholars'?" Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) spoke: The Reminder in the Verse is God's Messenger. We are his family. This is clear in the Book of God. See God's saying in Sura of At-Talaq: People of understanding and believers, have fear of God. God has certainly sent you a reminder-a Messenger who recites to you the illustrious revelations of God. Thus, the reminder is God's Messenger and we are his family


The tenth Verse of selection is God's saying: You are forbidden to marry your mothers, daughters, sisters, paternal aunts, maternal aunts, nieces, your foster-mothers, your foster-sisters, your mothers-in-law, your step-daughters whom you have brought up and with whose mothers you have had carnal relations. It would not be a sin to marry her if you did not have carnal relations with her mother. You are forbidden to marry the wives of your own sons and to marry two sisters at the same time without any adverse affect to the such relations of the past. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful." Supposing the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) is alive, is it licit for him to marry my daughter, my granddaughter, or my offspring? "No," answered they, "It is unlawful."


Imam Ar-Reza (peace be upon him) continued: Is it licit for him to marry the daughter of any of you?" "Yes," answered they, "It is lawful." The Imam (peace be upon him), then, said: This is sufficiently clear evidence that I am one of the Prophet's family members while you are not. If you are the Prophet's family, then it is unlawful for him to marry your daughters. It is unlawful for him to marry my daughter because I am one of his family members while you are members of his umma. This is another distinction between the Prophet's family and the umma. The Prophet's family is a part of him while the umma members are not unless they are his family. The eleventh Verse of selection is God's saying: A believing person from the family of the Pharaoh who concealed his faith said, "Would you kill a man just because he says God is my Lord? He has brought you illustrious miracles from your Lord. If he speaks lies, it will only harm him, but if he speaks the Truth, some of his warnings may affect you. God does not guide a transgressing liar." That man was the maternal cousin of the Pharaoh; therefore, God relates him to the Pharaoh due to this relation, not religion. The same thing can be said about us. We are the Prophet's because we are his family, particularly, and followers of his religion, generally. This is another distinction between the Prophet's family and the umma.


The twelfth Verse of selection is God's saying: Instruct your family to pray and be steadfast in worship. In this Verse, God joins us with the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) in the same commandment. This is a distinction over the umma. After the revelation of this Verse, the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) used to come near to the door of the house of Ali and Fatima (peace be upon them) five times a day for nine months. He was shouting: "The prayer! God's mercy be upon you." God has not bestowed upon any of the prophets' progenies with such an honored virtue that He has given exclusively to us. This is another distinction between the Prophet's family and the umma. All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. All peace be with Mohammed, the Prophet of God.


There is another version of this same debate and differs slightly: You can read the alternate version to Tuhafaqal uqool here, it's Uyoonal Akhbar: Chapter 23: On Al-Ridha’’s Debates With Al-Ma’mun Regarding The Difference Between Family (Itra) And Nation



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My comment: Distortion in form of fabricating hadiths and attributing unanimity of companions by whims when there was no proof, became the norm. As Imam Reda (as) and support for him and Ahlulbayt in general was occurring, the scholars wanted to fabricate a hadith "my nation is my family" or possibly has to do with a verse about "my course/way is my family" but they were trying to imply all Mohammad's followers are his family.

Imam Reda (as) then gave clear proofs on distinction between the chosen itra and the family. But all of that was to side track a different discussion which was initiated. And that was per the verse in Surah Fatir (35th Surah) God chosen from his servants ones to inherit the book in a way others don't inherit.

However, despite it being a red-herring, Imam Reda (as) took advantage of it to propagate Ahlulbayt (as) in Quran.

One of the verses quote was 3:33 linked to 4:54 and that linked to 4:59. The link per Imam Reda (as) is obvious, and those who hold the authority from this nation (4:59) are manifestly per Imam Reda (as) those envied for God's grace (4:54) and compared to Ahlulbayt of Abraham (4:54), which is a chosen family per (3:33).

The hadiths linking 4:54 with 4:59 in Shiite sources from the Imams (as) have reached a tawatur level. Imam Mohamad al-Baqir (as) and Imam Jaffar al-Sadiq (as) argued extensively through it, and this should be clear enough.

Like wise, the chosen from God's servants are obviously Mohammad's family by flow, and if you recall this, it's clear. And the verse before that emphasizes God with respect to his servants is aware seeing and that he inherited the book to who has chosen from his servants... so servants is being emphasized so to be clear, then God says "and from them is he who is oppressive" it refers to God's servants, not the chosen from them.

Anyways, instead of reflecting on what Imam Ali Reda (as) told them, they began to become argumentative and wanted to hold on to a clear falsehood and began to argue by hadiths rather that see what Quran says.

That said, I believe 4:54 to 4:59 is clear. This is what I mean, by that Quran is contextually clear. And 3:33 reinforces what is meant by "auli-Ibrahim" in 4:54. And there are many other verses that reinforce this.

The Mahdi is one of the Ulil-Amr, from Ahlulbayt of Mohammad, and I just wanted to mention that Quran is not unclear regarding the family of Mohammad and their position of Authority. It's this manifestly clear. The context of 4:54 to 4:59 is vividly clear.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Mahdi is one of the Ulil-Amr, from Ahlulbayt of Mohammad, and I just wanted to mention that Quran is not unclear regarding the family of Mohammad and their position of Authority. It's this manifestly clear. The context of 4:54 to 4:59 is vividly clear.

Then are you aware that the Bab was A descendant from Muhammad, a sayyid, through Husayn ibn Ali through both his parents?

Báb - Wikipedia
Husayn ibn Ali - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

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Then are you aware that the Bab was A descendant from Muhammad, a sayyid, through Husayn ibn Ali through both his parents?

Báb - Wikipedia
Husayn ibn Ali - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

The Bab is too distant in lineage to be a member of Ahlulbayt just as the family of Mohammad are a complete different family from the family of Abraham just as that family is a complete different family from the family of Nuh although all connected by lineage. Bab if he was a true Prophet, would have to have an Ahlulbayt himself and couldn't be the 12th Successor or Imam of Auli-Mohammad.

The formation of an Ahlulbayt is purposely done in a way to not allow imposters. For example, Zakariya prayed for a chosen heir because he feared the natural heirs he had would oppose Jesus. So God instead of making Jesus the 11th, made him the 12th and gave instead Yayha to Zakariya who prepared the way for Jesus. But Zakariya and Imran are brothers, and Jesus and Yahya cousins!

In case of Imam Hassan Al-Askari (as), there a lot of hadiths that predicted the names and the 12 Imams, and said it would be the son of Hassan al-askari (as) that is the Qaim/Mahdi. Imam Hassan Al-askari (as) had no other sons, and Sunnis believe he had no sons at all (don't believe he is the father of the Mahdi).

This was done - so that no imposter comes in the lineage of Imam Hassan Askari as there is no lineage to him, except Imam Mahdi (as).

 

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If we divorce any verse from it's context and other verses of the Quran, about the same topic, they can all be said to say anything we want.

However, I argue, the Mahdi with keeping in mind the contextual flow of Quran is very clear. The verses I quoted in this respected, are clear, but only if you keep it in context. The context as I explained, was the warning with regards to destroyed nations of the past.

Suratal Hud also relates about destroyed people in the past and ends with this reflection:

فَلَوْلَا كَانَ مِنَ الْقُرُونِ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ أُولُو بَقِيَّةٍ يَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْفَسَادِ فِي الْأَرْضِ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِمَّنْ أَنْجَيْنَا مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَاتَّبَعَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مَا أُتْرِفُوا فِيهِ وَكَانُوا مُجْرِمِينَ {116}
[Shakir 11:116] But why were there not among the generations before you those possessing understanding, who should have forbidden the making of mischief in the earth, except a few of those whom We delivered from among them? And those who were unjust went after what they are made to enjoy of plenty, and they were guilty.
وَمَا كَانَ رَبُّكَ لِيُهْلِكَ الْقُرَىٰ بِظُلْمٍ وَأَهْلُهَا مُصْلِحُونَ {117}
[Shakir 11:117] And it did not beseem your Lord to have destroyed the towns tyrannously, while their people acted well.
وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّكَ لَجَعَلَ النَّاسَ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً ۖ وَلَا يَزَالُونَ مُخْتَلِفِينَ {118}
[Shakir 11:118] And if your Lord had pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ.
إِلَّا مَنْ رَحِمَ رَبُّكَ ۚ وَلِذَٰلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ ۗ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ {119}
[Shakir 11:119] Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together.
وَكُلًّا نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ أَنْبَاءِ الرُّسُلِ مَا نُثَبِّتُ بِهِ فُؤَادَكَ ۚ وَجَاءَكَ فِي هَٰذِهِ الْحَقُّ وَمَوْعِظَةٌ وَذِكْرَىٰ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ {120}
[Shakir 11:120] And all we relate to you of the accounts of the messengers is to strengthen your heart therewith; and in this has come to you the truth and an admonition, and a reminder to the believers.
وَقُلْ لِلَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ اعْمَلُوا عَلَىٰ مَكَانَتِكُمْ إِنَّا عَامِلُونَ {121}
[Shakir 11:121] And say to those who do not believe: Act according to your state; surely we too are acting.
وَانْتَظِرُوا إِنَّا مُنْتَظِرُونَ {122}
[Shakir 11:122] And wait; surely we are waiting also.
وَلِلَّهِ غَيْبُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَإِلَيْهِ يُرْجَعُ الْأَمْرُ كُلُّهُ فَاعْبُدْهُ وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَيْهِ ۚ وَمَا رَبُّكَ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ {123}
[Shakir 11:123]And Allah's is the unseen in the heavens and the earth, and to Him is returned the whole of the affair; therefore serve Him and rely on Him, and your Lord is not heedless of what you do.


In fact, I said we will look at the verses in waiting in general.

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ {7}
[Shakir 13:7] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

In the above verse, it says, regarding the proof or sign(s), that Mohammad is but a warner and for every people there is a guide.

Obviously the warner is the guide, but, he is not the only guide because there is a guide for every people that can show miracles. The question arises, where is the Guide today that can show miracles?

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُضِلُّ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ أَنَابَ {27}
[Shakir 13:27] And those who disbelieve say: Why is not a sign sent down upon him by his Lord? Say: Surely Allah makes him who will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

Here it shows despite those who will be guided to such signs and miracles are those who turn to God and God will guide such people to the guide and miracles! It's further said about these people:

[Shakir 13:28] Those who believe and whose hearts are set at rest by the remembrance of Allah; now surely by Allah's remembrance are the hearts set at rest.

Then we have a similar reflection over those who disbelieve and mock:


وَلَوْ أَنَّ قُرْآنًا سُيِّرَتْ بِهِ الْجِبَالُ أَوْ قُطِّعَتْ بِهِ الْأَرْضُ أَوْ كُلِّمَ بِهِ الْمَوْتَىٰ ۗ بَلْ لِلَّهِ الْأَمْرُ جَمِيعًا ۗ أَفَلَمْ يَيْأَسِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنْ لَوْ يَشَاءُ اللَّهُ لَهَدَى النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا ۗ وَلَا يَزَالُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا تُصِيبُهُمْ بِمَا صَنَعُوا قَارِعَةٌ أَوْ تَحُلُّ قَرِيبًا مِنْ دَارِهِمْ حَتَّىٰ يَأْتِيَ وَعْدُ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُخْلِفُ الْمِيعَادَ {31}
[Shakir 13:31] And even if there were a Quran with which the mountains were made to pass away, or the earth were travelled over with it, or the dead were made to speak thereby; nay! the commandment is wholly Allah's, Have not yet those who believe known that if Allah please He would certainly guide all the people? And (as for) those who disbelieve, there will not cease to afflict them because of what they do a repelling calamity, or it will alight close by their abodes, until the promise of Allah comes about; surely Allah will not fail in (His) promise.

وَلَقَدِ اسْتُهْزِئَ بِرُسُلٍ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فَأَمْلَيْتُ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا ثُمَّ أَخَذْتُهُمْ ۖ فَكَيْفَ كَانَ عِقَابِ {32}
[Shakir 13:32] And messengers before you were certainly mocked at, but I gave respite to those who disbelieved, then I destroyed them; how then was My requital (of evil)?

And more reflections on this issue:

وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلًا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً ۚ وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۗ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ {38}
[Shakir 13:38] And certainly We sent messengers before you and gave them wives and children, and it is not in (the power of) an messenger to bring a sign except by Allah's permission; for every term there is an appointment.

And warned:

[Shakir 13:42] And those before them did indeed make plans, but all planning is Allah's; He knows what every soul earns, and the unbelievers shall come to know for whom is the (better) issue of the abode.



Thus the waiting is regards to the "signs", the disbelievers wait it as if it won't happen, and when the miracles come about, they reject and mock the person as sorcerer or one possessed by demons.

 

[Link]

Aside from that, the Quran that the hiding and showing of the signs is up to God and so it being hidden from most humans, is up to God:


وَمَا كَانَ النَّاسُ إِلَّا أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً فَاخْتَلَفُوا ۚ وَلَوْلَا كَلِمَةٌ سَبَقَتْ مِنْ رَبِّكَ لَقُضِيَ بَيْنَهُمْ فِيمَا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ {19}
[Shakir 10:19] And people are naught but a single nation, so they disagree; and had not a word already gone forth from your Lord, the matter would have certainly been decided between them in respect of that concerning which they disagree.
وَيَقُولُونَ لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۖ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلَّهِ فَانْتَظِرُوا إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الْمُنْتَظِرِينَ {20}
[10:20] And they say: Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say: The hiding (of it) is for God; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.


We can see here, the waiting is for the signs to become manifest. However, we should not wait in a way that resulted in the destruction of the people of the past:

[Shakir 10:102] What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait.​

We can derive that the Prophet is waiting, and we ought to wait like him. Prepare people for the signs and miracles.​

Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting." (6:158)​

Like wise it has warned:​

[Due to] Arrogance in the land and plotting of evil; but the evil plot does not encompass except its own people. Then do they await except the way of the former peoples? But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration. (35:43)​

Like wise, it has told us to reflect on the book of Moses and Imams they were appointed (The Messengers from them):​

[32:22] And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, then he turns away from them? Surely We will give punishment to the guilty.
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ فَلَا تَكُنْ فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِنْ لِقَائِهِ ۖ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ هُدًى لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ {23}
[Shakir 32:23] And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.
وَجَعَلْنَا مِنْهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا لَمَّا صَبَرُوا ۖ وَكَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يُوقِنُونَ {24}
[32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our signs.
إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ يَفْصِلُ بَيْنَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فِيمَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ {25}
[Shakir 32:25] Surely your Lord will judge between them on the day of resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.
أَوَلَمْ يَهْدِ لَهُمْ كَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ مِنَ الْقُرُونِ يَمْشُونَ فِي مَسَاكِنِهِمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ ۖ أَفَلَا يَسْمَعُونَ {26}
[Shakir 32:26] Does it not point out to them the right way, how many of the generations, in whose abodes they go about, did We destroy before them? Most surely there are signs in this; will they not then hear?
أَوَلَمْ يَرَوْا أَنَّا نَسُوقُ الْمَاءَ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ الْجُرُزِ فَنُخْرِجُ بِهِ زَرْعًا تَأْكُلُ مِنْهُ أَنْعَامُهُمْ وَأَنْفُسُهُمْ ۖ أَفَلَا يُبْصِرُونَ {27}
[Shakir 32:27] Do they not see that We drive the water to a land having no herbage, then We bring forth thereby seed-produce of which their cattle and they themselves eat; will they not then see?
وَيَقُولُونَ مَتَىٰ هَٰذَا الْفَتْحُ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {28}
[Shakir 32:28] And they say: When will this judgment take place, If you are truthful?
قُلْ يَوْمَ الْفَتْحِ لَا يَنْفَعُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِيمَانُهُمْ وَلَا هُمْ يُنْظَرُونَ {29}
[Shakir 32:29] Say: On the day of judgment the faith of those who (now) disbelieve will not profit them, nor will they be respited.
فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَانْتَظِرْ إِنَّهُمْ مُنْتَظِرُونَ {30}
[Shakir 32:30] Therefore turn away from them and wait, surely they too are waiting.



And with respect to the destroyed nations, it has repeated reflections over this through out the Quran.

Shakir 37:171] And certainly Our word has already gone forth in respect of Our servants, the messengers:
إِنَّهُمْ لَهُمُ الْمَنْصُورُونَ {172}
[Shakir 37:172] Most surely they shall be the assisted ones
وَإِنَّ جُنْدَنَا لَهُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ {173}
[Shakir 37:173] And most surely Our host alone shall be the victorious ones.
فَتَوَلَّ عَنْهُمْ حَتَّىٰ حِينٍ {174}
[Shakir 37:174] Therefore turn away from them till a time,
وَأَبْصِرْهُمْ فَسَوْفَ يُبْصِرُونَ {175}
[Shakir 37:175] And (then) see them, so they too shall see.
أَفَبِعَذَابِنَا يَسْتَعْجِلُونَ {176}
[Shakir 37:176] What! would they then hasten on Our chastisement?
فَإِذَا نَزَلَ بِسَاحَتِهِمْ فَسَاءَ صَبَاحُ الْمُنْذَرِينَ {177}
[Shakir 37:177] But when it shall descend in their court, evil shall then be the morning of the warned ones.
وَتَوَلَّ عَنْهُمْ حَتَّىٰ حِينٍ {178}
[Shakir 37:178] And turn away from them till a time
وَأَبْصِرْ فَسَوْفَ يُبْصِرُونَ {179}
[Shakir 37:179] And (then) see, for they too shall see.
سُبْحَانَ رَبِّكَ رَبِّ الْعِزَّةِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ {180}



Going back to the verses I quoted, "and upon us is to deliver the believers", the waiting is obviously in context of this. Mohammad's warning was local, but the flow of Quran has a global warning with regards to his warning, and that clearly is the Mahdi.

How to wait for the Mahdi should not mockingly passive, it should be to prepare people to accept miracles and signs.

Again, I quoted two verses in the OP, and they were sufficient, and one of them said "and thus is an obligation upon us to deliver the believers" and this was in context of oppressors believers face!​