The Mahdi in the Quran.

[TransmutingSoul]

I think Quran and hadiths both speak about the dark forces casting a spell on every wish and will of a Prophet, this includes his revelation, and his explanation. This is the problem and has always been. This is one of the wisdom of the two ending Surahs in Quran.

It's not that it's not clear enough, it's that, there is dark magic that put locks and blow upon knots that have made it difficult to see.

I see it is not dark magic Link, it is our worldly self that blinds us to the Light given by God.

I am enjoying your posts, I see a kindred heart in the valley of search.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Maybe. I haven't read entirely the Bible but I've seen some verses here and there.

But the topic is about the Mahdi so I wait to see the verses you are talking about.

No, I won't give you the answer easily. I am sorry. I have to go step by step, because I believe that is the way Quran itself will show you, not me!

If the verses of Bible regarding Muhammad were explicit and clear, the People of the Book would agree that Muhammad is in the Bible!

For example if, the Bible had said, there will come a Messenger in Arabia, whose name is Muhammad, with a new Book, called Quran, in the year 600 AH, then no body among the people of the Book would have denied.

Thus, if Quran is the truth from God, one must believe, that God did not explicitly talk about Muhammad in the Bible for a certain reason. Thus, why couldnot God speak of a Mahdi in Quran in the same way He spoke of Muhammad in the Bible, in an ambiguous language rather than explicit, for the same reason?

So, let me ask you this question. As the verse 3:7, some of its verses are Mutishabihat. Translators interpret mutishabihat to mean unclear, ambiguous, symbolic, allegorical. So, why do you think it is not possible, that Mahdi is described in Quran using Mutishabihat verses?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

According to me Allah is warning people. He is telling them to wake up and see what happened before and to not wait until it's to late.
It can talk about the people who live during the time of the Prophet : wait until you see what's gonna happen (that muslims will win) or wait until you die so you will know if you were right or no.

If we look at history who were the people that accepted the Message?

Usually only a handful from the past Faith. There is a great lesson to learn with history as it has been repeated in this day.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

According to me Allah is warning people. He is telling them to wake up and see what happened before and to not wait until it's to late.
It can talk about the people who live during the time of the Prophet : wait until you see what's gonna happen (that muslims will win) or wait until you die so you will know if you were right or no.

Salam

In my view, you are relying on an ambiguous derivation from the text, while I'm relying on clear context and clear signs of the Quran and letting Quran be clear. So much of Quran is about destruction of cities and nations. This verse, is in context of that by flow, and is saying, it's upon God regarding believers, to deliver them still. It's not talking about after life punishment or barzkah or any of this, it's talking explicitly about the type of punishment of destroyed cities.

Remember there is the following type of Messengers in Quran.

(1) Founders
(2) Successors to founders.

(1) is usually the type if oppressed and rejected, and God's hand is forced, the people rejecting and oppressing destroyed. There are verses that even explicitly this would've happened to people of Mohammad were it not for... (And I explained this already).

Anyways, thanks for telling me your view. I will be showing more verses and building a clearer case. The problem is people make up their own meanings then let the Quran say what it's manifestly saying, this is a huge problem. The two verses I quoted are in context of destroyed cities and the type of punishment Yonus people were averted when they saw it coming from a distance.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I think Quran is clearer then hadiths about the Mahdi. The Mahdi there is more ambiguity about him in hadiths and more then that, there is contradictions about him, while Quran is clearer in that he is a great warning to humanity, not just a good news.

I also include @Pastek on this post.
Here is a verse of the Quran about Mahdi :

“Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have
made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah
Hadid 57:17)

Look, it is not clear at all this verse is about Mahdi. If you read this verse to a 1000 ordinary people, they all think it is talking about growing new vegetation on earth after, the vegetation die. It is not clear to me either. I thought it is about vegetation on earth or something.

But, look how Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) interpreted this verse:

“Allah, the Exalted will revive it through the Qaim after its death; its death implies disbelief of its inhabitants, because the disbelievers are dead.”
(Biharulanwar, 51-53, part 1, English translation)


Allah, in Quran had said there are people who are Well-Gounded in knowledge. A Muslim who cares about Quran and guidance of Allah, would certainly care to know, who Allah is talking about? Is there any clue from Allah in Quran, who are the well-grounded in knowledge?
Well, certain traditions, say, for example Imam Bagher was one of the well-grounded in knowledge. Thus, @Pastek , how do you know, this hadith is not authentic, and Imam Bagher is not right, that this verse is about the Qaim?

 

[Link]

I also include @Pastek on this post.
Here is a verse of the Quran about Mahdi :

“Know that Allah gives life to the earth after its death; indeed, We have
made the communications clear to you that you may understand.” (Surah
Hadid 57:17)

Look, it is not clear at all this verse is about Mahdi. If you read this verse to a 1000 ordinary people, they all think it is talking about growing new vegetation on earth after, the vegetation die. It is not clear to me either. I thought it is about vegetation on earth or something.

But, look how Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) interpreted this verse:

“Allah, the Exalted will revive it through the Qaim after its death; its death implies disbelief of its inhabitants, because the disbelievers are dead.”
(Biharulanwar, 51-53, part 1, English translation)


Allah, in Quran had said there are people who are Well-Gounded in knowledge. A Muslim who cares about Quran and guidance of Allah, would certainly care to know, who Allah is talking about? Is there any clue from Allah in Quran, who are the well-grounded in knowledge?
Well, certain traditions, say, for example Imam Bagher was one of the well-grounded in knowledge. Thus, @Pastek , how do you know, this hadith is not authentic, and Imam Bagher is not right, that this verse is about the Qaim?

The Imams sometimes explained things to their followers so they can see more in Quran. However, when in debates with people who were opponents of Ahlulbayt religiously, they used clear proofs. For example, see the debate between scholars and Imam Reda (as) about the difference between Ahlulbayt and the umma (the nation) in Quran. He used clear explicit verses and interpreted them in a clear manner including connecting 4:54 and 4:59 and 3:33 and proving Ahlulbayt authority by contextual flow of Quran.

There is deeper meanings to Quran, but you have to build on clear signs, and then open up more. Hadiths - they are there to get us reflecting over Quran and try to see if we can prove that interpretation or insight from Ahlulbayt in Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Pastek
Why do you think Quran narrates the story of past Prophets for the Muslims so much?
I think it is because there is lesson to learn from them. So, when we learn why for example Jesus is not acceptable to Jews, and why Muhammad is not explicitly mentioned in Bible, perhaps, we learn about ways of Allah, and how He possibly describes a future prophet in Scriptures, such as Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Imams sometimes explained things to their followers so they can see more in Quran. However, when in debates with people who were opponents of Ahlulbayt religiously, they used clear proofs. For example, see the debate between scholars and Imam Reda (as) about the difference between Ahlulbayt and the umma (the nation) in Quran. He used clear explicit verses and interpreted them in a clear manner including connecting 4:54 and 4:59 and 3:33 and proving Ahlulbayt authority by contextual flow of Quran.

There is deeper meanings to Quran, but you have to build on clear signs, and then open up more. Hadiths - they are there to get us reflecting over Quran and try to see if we can prove that interpretation or insight from Ahlulbayt in Quran.

If Allah wanted things to be simple, He would have made them simple, so, all Jews would have believed Jesus as their Messiah, and all Christian's would have believed in Muhammad, and All Muslims, would have believed in the 12 imams. But God, has made His Holy Books, in such a way that only if one with a clean heart, ponders on its verses, he may be guided. Otherwise, those verses can easily misguide people.
Just think, for example verses 3:7, can actually be read in 2 ways. Sunni way, and Shia way. Was not God able to reveal this verse in such a way to be read only in one way? Surely He was. But His verses are meant to be guidance to those who deserve it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ha ha, just noticed that I talk to my self on Links threads. Must be on ignore or being ignored.

As such I take my leave, offer peace be with one and all and I in life give only praise to the Mahdi of the Koran.

RegardsTony

 

[Link]

I see that is how it happens with every Messenger from God.

The Key thought here is in reflecting on the past. In the time of Jesus, it was not the full body of Jews that were delivered. It was only those that accepted Jesus as the Christ.

Regards Tony

It's talking about a specific of deliverance. It's not talking about delivering them to paradise here although other verses show that God saves believers from hell as well.

Quran although verses are revealed in different places and times, is contextually based. You have to look at the preceding verses and also reflect on the narrations of the past with respect to this, in the Surah. It's talking about how Moses delivered the believers from the Pharaoh for example.

Here it's a warning, to first the people of Mecca not to oppress believers of that time, lest they be destroyed, but near the end times, it becomes a warning to the oppressors of the world not to oppress believers, lest they be destroyed.

This is the CLEAR CONTEXTUAL MEANING. It's the way to see the flow of the Surah, and to split Quran into parts and isolate verses.

 

[Link]

Ha ha, just noticed that I talk to my self on Links threads. Must be on ignore or being ignored.

As such I take my leave, offer peace be with one and all and I in life give only praise to the Mahdi of the Koran.

RegardsTony

I'm sorry, didn't do it purposely.

 

[Link]

I see it is not dark magic Link, it is our worldly self that blinds us to the Light given by God.

I am enjoying your posts, I see a kindred heart in the valley of search.

Regards Tony

The worldly self is in fact non-existent. It's not even us, it's Iblis telling us it's us and make us live for his unclean spirit telling us he is us.

But this is not only through that illusion, although that is part of it, even people who want to see the Mahdi and believe in Ahlulbayt, there is knots and locks, that can blind them to it.

It's not the Quran is not a clear book, it's that the sorcery has split into parts and isolation of verses has take place in all "tafsirs" we have today.

 

[Link]

If Allah wanted things to be simple, He would have made them simple, so, all Jews would have believed Jesus as their Messiah, and all Christian's would have believed in Muhammad, and All Muslims, would have believed in the 12 imams. But God, has made His Holy Books, in such a way that only if one with a clean heart, ponders on its verses, he may be guided. Otherwise, those verses can easily misguide people.
Just think, for example verses 3:7, can actually be read in 2 ways. Sunni way, and Shia way. Was not God able to reveal this verse in such a way to be read only in one way? Surely He was. But His verses are meant to be guidance to those who deserve it.

The Quran is clear with regards to "Ahlulbayt" and their number, or else, the Prophet would not have emphasized to believe in the number of Twelve and it's sacred position in Quran. I can quote that hadith but I think you know it, the one he quotes every verse about "twelve" after saying believe in the "authority of Twelve" for.... and quotes four verses to this effect. If you don't know the hadith I Can quote it.

The Quran is clear enough, yes, it could be more detailed in explanation and more explicit, this doesn't mean it's not simple and clear.

Again, if you begin to recite Quran properly, you will see it has described the straight path and every hadith pertaining to guidance can be verified in Quran.

3:7 can be recited four different ways, this is what you don't realize, I don't agree with the Bahai understanding of it. We are only allowed following clear signs from it.

 

[Link]

@Pastek
Why do you think Quran narrates the story of past Prophets for the Muslims so much?
I think it is because there is lesson to learn from them. So, when we learn why for example Jesus is not acceptable to Jews, and why Muhammad is not explicitly mentioned in Bible, perhaps, we learn about ways of Allah, and how He possibly describes a future prophet in Scriptures, such as Quran.

The Mahdi is not a Prophet. Honestly, I'm proving here the Shiite Twelver concept of the Mahdi as spoken about in the hadiths and Quran.

The Mahdi itself is almost a meaningless title unless you realize that it implies there will come a time that Islam is hidden, non-existent, and the Quran is hidden, non-existent, and the people of the Quran hidden without an outward community.

When the period occurred between Jesus and Mohammad, Elyas was the hidden witness and guide, but his community were not known.

With regards to Quran, although God's Sunnah never changes, there is some notable differences then the past nations.

(1) Quran is divinely protected, it is not lost.
(2) Quran is build over 23 years, which people who study linguistics, deny Mohammad ever existed or know he is a Prophet. There is no well maybe it was revealed over 23 years and Mohammad is historically correct and Quran can be linguistically possible. Those who know linguistics very well, know it's impossible. This is why now people who aware of this but don't know want to submit to Mohammad's Authority to submit to God, will go to lengths to say there is alternative history, and Saudi Arabia is destroying a lot of historical sites and old evidence of items we have, to show history, for this reason as well. The Gog/Dajjal/Pharoah and his followers (Magog) due to the science of linguistics are preparing people and getting rid of evidence so as to put doubt on Mohammad's existence.
(3) Contrary to the theory that those in power made up Quran, the Quran negates the false idol and it's supposed authority and delegates it the leaders of the oppressed, Mohammad and his family, and so this goes against the thesis above, that rulers of Arabia made up the Quran!
(4) Due to 3, there is a constant war to separate the Quran from the family of Mohammad, but as they know this will eventually fail, they want to make alternate paths - so Bohras and Ismailis are heavily close with Freemasons for a reason. They wish to eventually make us doubt the actual Ahlulbayt and follow a false Ahlulbayt.
(5) But if Quran is a complete guidance and clarification of the path and way, it must clarify the kin who are designated to the path of God (42:23, 25:57) and hence the number of Successors, it's incumbent upon God to clarify.
(6) The translations with regard to the Twelve and the words therein, the spell is being broken, so panic mode will happen to Iblis and his forces.
(7) The final plan will be to delegate a whole new religion acknowledging Ahlulbayt and replace it with a new Prophet and new set of leaders. This is being tested with Ahmedis, Bahais, Maiterya followers, etc, and the Shiite 24vers (I nick name followers of Ahmad Hassan that). It's seen if people have enough mental clarity to refute the arguments made by these people. The problem that occurs, is God has made Prophets falsifiable. They must provide miracles and proofs for example in form of power that only God can directly delegate and sustain.
(8) The plan seems to make miracles into just symbolic meanings, I've seen in my life time a person called MacIsaac on Shiachat.com who was a convert to Shiism, that has left Shiism now, but appeared to be a pious helper of Shiism and devout follower, always emphasize that miracles are not literal, there is no Barzakh life, no spiritual help from Imams etc, can't talk to dead Imams, etc, and some people followed him and he wasn't easy to refute.
(9) A lot of Quran was devoted to the issue of miracles as proofs vs sorcery, because, it's important.
(10) The final desperate plan, is to become like Jews, who put more conditions then miracles as proofs. That the teachings themselves must be verified, and miracles are not enough. This will be to deny the Mahdi, and the purpose of attributing the Dajjal all sorts of signs and miracles only Prophets can do, was to test the minds of Muslims in this regard. They failed to refute those hadiths and still to this day believe in them.
(11) As for 10, the degree Quran goes on to show why miracles are proofs and warns in this regard to the whole world, it's obvious, these signs are coming.
(12) Why God didn't send such signs at any period in time, whenever such signs are not in the open by a Mursal (one sent by God with either the message or a revelation) is clear in Quran, the first ones denied them, as they denied them, they must have become hostile towards the followers of truth or the miracles themselves no longer have their strong place in being a proof. This way of denying miracles as proofs or in the case of Sunnis, simply, not even go the Imams and say Shiites are just making up all these miracles about them, results in miracles no longer effecting people.
(13) The miracle periods when they are at a new - is known as noon, the midday, sunlight as bright day, type time and they are days of God where he destroyed oppressors.
(14) The light then begins to set and hostility towards proofs and signs begins to take place either on the very chosen doing them or their followers are accused of being liars, and as such the moon light to stars in the night phases happen.
(15) The total dark night, is such when there is no longer any such guide with miracles in the open, this darkness is so we seek the day again. The day is not so we seek the night, but to avoid it, but God alternates cycle, so that he doesn't literally destroy all humans. He made the day so we seek brightness and light and made the night in this respect so have rest from the bright Sun and even when the moon to stars become too much, the Quran talks about the stars when they hide themselves and then appear. According to hadiths, this is a prophecy of the Mahdi going in Ghayba and coming back. See the hadiths from Imam Baqir (as) concerning that verse.

Put this together, and we can see wisdom in 33:40. That God putting an end to revelations with Mohammad we can see now is reaching a climax wisdom. Where as it was hard to tell in the past, the world community and the Mahdi being a universal one to bring justice literally to the east and west, one way or the other, is manifestly becoming true.

And the warnings of Quran warning the destruction to the people of Mohammad are anything but dead verses of the past. They've become prophecies of the future with the Mahdi and which one of these prophecies will happen, not even God knows!

And the warnings in this regard the Mahdi is even a greater warning then Mohammad was to his people, because the destruction and application is to the whole world with the Mahdi. While in the past, destruction was localized, the Quran says "not a town or city (if rejects) but we will destroy it or rather punish it a terrible punishment"

 

[Pastek]

No, I won't give you the answer easily. I am sorry. I have to go step by step, because I believe that is the way Quran itself will show you, not me!

We are not in school here. If you have an explanation, if you know something you have to share it with people.
This is how it works.

So, let me ask you this question. As the verse 3:7, some of its verses are Mutishabihat. Translators interpret mutishabihat to mean unclear, ambiguous, symbolic, allegorical. So, why do you think it is not possible, that Mahdi is described in Quran using Mutishabihat verses?

Like I said, if you know something then show the verses and maybe i missed it.

Again i'm not a fan of threads that are long for nothing. I'm not into discussions that last forever for nothing.
Just give once and for all the verses and let discuss about it. That's supposed to be the topic ...

Salam
In my view, you are relying on an ambiguous derivation from the text, while I'm relying on clear context and clear signs of the Quran and letting Quran be clear.
This verse, is in context of that by flow, and is saying, it's upon God regarding believers, to deliver them still. It's not talking about after life punishment or barzkah or any of this, it's talking explicitly about the type of punishment of destroyed cities.

The problem is people make up their own meanings then let the Quran say what it's manifestly saying, this is a huge problem. The two verses I quoted are in context of destroyed cities and the type of punishment Yonus people were averted when they saw it coming from a distance.

Salam. I don't understand.
You are just giving another point of view not that different from me, while you said it was about the Mahdi.
So it's not about the Mahdi just like i said. Thanks.

Anyways, thanks for telling me your view. I will be showing more verses and building a clearer case.

Ok. When you'll finally decided we are ready and it's the good time to show us your verses, then maybe I'll come back take a look.

 

[Pastek]

I see it is a good prophecy about the Mahdi and how it will happen.

Regards Tony

So can you explain the verse ?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

This way of denial is a huge problem. Quranic verses are meant to be reflected about.

Gods seem to have the very annoying and dividing habbit of always talking in riddles.

You'ld think that an allmight allknowing being would understand that such type of communication would lead to sectarianism, division, animosity and sheer violence and intolerance....

How powerfull is such a being really, if it even fails to communicate with a bit of clarity and without such ambiguity?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I will show. But first think about my previous last post to Link: this question....Why, Muhammad is not explicitly mentioned in Bible?

Because religions aren't in the business of making clear falsifiable statements.
And because the authors of religious scriptures can't really tell the future.

 

[Link]

The Quran doesn't talk in Riddles, it explains and repeatedly explains it's own verses. The context is about destroyed cities and nations, and it's saying, not to wait for such a catastrophe but to prepare and believe so as to avoid the catastrophe that cities faced.

There is nothing ambiguous in Quran, with reflection, all of it is clear. Non-clarity with respect to Quran comes from our injustice, desires, and lack of reflection and the dark sorcery.

Anyways, I think I will be looking at all the verses that talk about "wait..."... If we look at them all, they will clearly interpret each other.

 

[Link]

Just give once and for all the verses and let discuss about it. That's supposed to be the topic ...

I will do this, fine, but then you have to address all the verses I bring. Not just deny and put your own meaning, but prove by Quran and it's context, that your interpretation is correct.