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Featured The Love Hoax

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Dec 1, 2020.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    This idea that I hear on occasion, that God is love.

    Well no not really. The experience of "love" is really just a stimulus/response mechanism of the body. The stimulus being the 5 senses and the response being the chemicals released by the brain we crave. One of the main chemicals released being Oxytocin also called the "hugging drug".

    Oxytocin gives us a feeling of calm and security. Those seeking God are probably just looking for an extra helping of oxytocin.

    Of course the release of chemicals is triggered naturally through physical contact. However, we've also learned how to manually trigger the release of this chemical, through prayer, meditation, religious rituals.

    So "spirituality" is really a process of learning how to triggers the chemical response we crave without the external stimulus.

    The draw of spirituality is the addiction we have to these chemicals which cause within us the positive feelings we desire.

    I suspect long ago we had a limited means of causing these chemical responses we become addicted to. Religion was developed around what was found, largely by trial and error, to cause the brain to release these chemicals.

    Today, there exists a lot more ways of triggering these chemical highs. Movies, music, art. Exotic foods, travel to pleasure vacations etc...

    Not that spirituality doesn't remain a viable option, but there exists a lot less need for religion these days.
     
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  2. DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan

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  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Interesting idea, perhaps thats why i have no need for god or religion, i have plenty of the real thing
     
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  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't disprove the existence of love outside the human mind/experience. We have the ability to feel things with our hands, our tongue can taste and our ears hear. The point I'm making is that yes the body releases certain chemicals to "feel" things like love or the presence of spirits. But that doesn't mean it's not real. It's real; we're just privileged to have the ability to feel it like your hand feels the texture on the wall.
     
  5. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    What makes you think God is not in those things, mostly?:)
    He's not only in churches or prayers:);)
     
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  6. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    It's not the stimulus response that spiritual people are looking for. It is the higher understanding, the freedom of the soul. If love were a mere chemical response then it would not have any significance.

    Then there are many different kinds of love.

    I might as well own a pet and care for that to get a mere stimulus. Or spend time in a VR environment.

    It's the meaning and not the effect that gives significance.
     
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  7. The Hammer

    The Hammer Virtue, Piety, Study
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    Yes, it's called self-soothing. We learn it as a child. How to calm oneself without the use of external stimulus.

    I find this (religion) a very useful option, considering the other avenues of mental health out there can be very expensive and cost prohibitive.

    Movies, music, etc are not always available.
     
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  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    There are many ways of triggering your brain to provide the feelings you desire. But basic physiology is what it is. Feelings are creating by this combination of chemicals released by the brain. The combination may differ slightly depending on how the release is triggered but there is no mystery here.

    What higher understanding? What freedom of the soul? I suspect all these really is a perfection of triggering the desired response.

    Which works perfectly fine for some.

    And, there's the hoax. The thought that we are doing anything other than feeding our chemical addiction.

    What meaning?

    I'm not criticizing, I've been there but now it all seems to me a series of platitudes to justify our addiction.
     
  9. Jaiket

    Jaiket Well-Known Member
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    Hi, Nakosis.

    This seems to be speculation. As far as I can tell we don't have anything approaching a sensible answer for what any given experience "is really".

    Why is 'love just a stimulus/response mechanism' a more reasonable thing to assert than 'God is love'?

    If that's all it is wouldn't they just go for hugs?

    That's a big claim. Interesting too. I'd be fascinated if you could back it up with evidence or an argument.

    Anyway, decent thread.
     
  10. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The effect of these chemicals is known. It's not speculation.

    People do. You ought to try it.

    You ought to look into what is known about brain chemistry especially these for chemicals.
    endorphin, oxytocin, serotonin, and dopamine.

    These are the ones that cause positive feelings. It's not made up or speculation, it's fact. I won't go into speculation about God, however just to say God is not necessary. Belief can certainly be useful in triggering the release of these chemicals, but God is not needed to create the spiritual feelings we crave.

    There are other chemicals that cause bad feelings. This is all known, documented. There is nothing else that needs to exist to explain the "spiritual" experience.
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Look, I'm not knocking religion really. In fact it's religion which led me to this understanding to how we can go about triggering this release of desired chemicals.

    I understand that people want there to be more there but the more is not necessary. I'm usually a pretty happy guy. I can keep the bad feelings away and keep the good feelings/chemicals flowing. Religion was kind of a primer to learning that.

    Of course, I'm certain lots of folks need to believe the more exists to trigger the feelings they are looking for. So obviously they are going to feeling something is missing in understanding this as a pure physiological response. However, it works just the same with or without the spiritual trappings.
     
  12. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    That depends on the individual whether or not they are just working to support addictions. It is a choice!

    There is the meaning that people can create among each other. There is virtues that some people love.

    I am afraid it might be all too common that people are mostly materialists who live for mere feelings and emotions.

    For me, I don't look for reward from others. My spirituality is for me and the meanings I live for. If the mystical feelings did not relate to the meanings I live for then that would be a hollow, empty hoax. It would be a hoax if I could artificially create feelings that had no meaning behind them.

    Meanings are created by the honesty we give to those who deserve it. Someone once said courage is the virtue that makes all other virtues possible.

    As for the feelings themselves there might be a correlation between meaning and feelings.
     
  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I agree, your op just triggered the thought that maybe some religious people are in there because they are lacking in physical love and find a substitute among lile minded people
     
  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I'm not saying it is not real. Love is real, but what love is, is a chemical concoction released by the brain. Or feelings are a response created by stimulus sent to the brain.

    Once we understand that, we can "self" stimulate.
     
  15. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ok, however, you want to clothe it. But the base, the motivation is the feelings that are a result of this chemical concoction.
    I understand the hollow feeling and the need for meaning, but it's possible to get over that. Not saying you need to or should, just that they aren't really necessary to the experience.
     
  16. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    That's a classical reductionistic formulation. It''s true in a limited biological sphere and many stop there but it's far from complete.

    Exactly. The word 'love' covers so many different things because English does not have the richness of languages like Greek which has 8 different kinds of love including philia, pragma, eros, ludus, mania, philautia and agape.

    Even beyond that, love in action does not depend on a chemical reward such as a soldier who sacrifices his life for the sake of his comrades in battle. Sacrificing one's life while feeling fear and regret is hardly a pleasurable wash of oxytocin.

    Once someone leaves behind the seeking for pleasure through stimulating various chemical rewards, the person enters the arena of sacrifice. And it has been said and written that to achieve the final goal, self/God realization, the sacrifice of everything becomes the goal "We must die to self to live in God; thus death means life"
     
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  17. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. It's more than that; God just gave us the ability to do it also. That involves chemical releases but there is more to it than just that.
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Veteran Member
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    I see love is beyond the material senses, it is the light shines upon all things and can be felt by the senses. The senses are not the source and are limited in reflecting Love.

    It it is the triggering of chemical highs one is after, then Love is not to be found.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ok, but what is it that you think you are getting out of this sacrifice?
     
  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Ok, what is the more?
     
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