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Featured The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua didn't need the apostles to teach him. He simply needed them to preach the kingdom of heaven to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 10:6), healing as they went to show the power and Spirit of the kingdom. Matthew 24:14 is for a witness to the nations, so that they will know what is a coming. As for Matthew 28:19-20, it was not in the original manuscripts. Someone with insight, and a key board, can do more than 8.5 million lost souls. Yeshua and John the Baptist were both "Lone Rangers", and died alone, when the "sheep of the flock shall be scattered" (Matthew 26:31). I myself claim nothing. The "Words of God" which I quote, speak for themselves, for those with ears to hear (Matthew 13:13).
     
  2. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if your JW bible actually says these things, but I don't think so. There is no "heavenly resurrection" in Revelation 20:6. The resurrected are those who didn't worship the beast (Revelation 20:4), to reign with "Christ for a 1000 years". "Christ" was to rule on earth, not in heaven. The "LORD of Hosts" was to be worshipped by "those who are left of the nations" "in Jerusalem" (Zechariah 14:16-17). Your confusion seems like your are trying to incorporate Paul into the text, and Paul is dead, and his "demon spirit" is gathering the kings of the whole world to Har-Magedon Revelation 16:13-19).

    New American Standard Bible Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
     
  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't know that there is any point in continuing, but did you forget that Jesus was going to return to his Father in heaven and "prepare a place" in the "many abodes" (not "mansions") for his anointed ones "in his Father's house"? Then he was "coming again" to take them "home". (John 14:2-3) This is the "FIRST resurrection". If something is "first" it means that another will follow. The Revelation talks about the "second death" because there is a "first" one. Do you understand?

    The Kingdom is a heavenly government with earthly subjects. How do I know this?
    Daniel speaks of God's Kingdom as "crushing" failed human rulership out of existence and replacing it as Earth's only government. (Daniel 2:44) And Revelation 21:2-4 says that Christ and his "bride" are bringing rulership from heaven to "mankind" and that this means the end of pain, suffering and death.

    In Revelation 20:6 the rulers are going to be 'kings and priests'. These need subjects over whom to rule and they need sinners in order to act as priests. These are now immortal spirit beings who have been given the same kind of body at their resurrection Lord Jesus had. The Kingdom is in heaven.

    Your scenario makes no sense at all. You have one foot in bits of Judaism and one foot in bits of the NT. Yet somehow you mange to join them up when there is nothing to connected except in your own mind.

    So when you can tell me why we are supposed to listen to someone who has such a woeful knowledge of scripture, when our very lives depend on knowing the truth, you can remain with all the other "lone rangers" who think they have special knowledge that no one else knows. Perhaps a few miracles will convince people....you haven't got much else. :shrug:

    And.....any more cracks about Paul and you will go on ignore. I have had enough of your baseless fixation. o_O
     
  4. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Since God is neither male or female praying to 'God our mother' presents no problem.
    Jesus taught how to pray, to be carried on.
    Public worship is a community that prays 'together'. It is for our benefit, God does not need it. when we pray the 'Our Father' we are expressing what we believe.
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    There is a "first death" for "everyone" (Jeremiah 31:30), in spite of what your personal false prophet may have written, stating that not all would "sleep"/die, the same message of the "serpent" (Genesis 3:4). The "first" resurrection" is at the beginning of the millennium, for the "whole house of Israel"/Jacob (Ezekiel 37:11-12) who have not worshipped the "beast" (Revelation 20:4). As for John 14:2-3, it reads "I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also." When "I come again" would be at the start of the millennium, when the son of man will return with his angels to collect the dead saints who had not worshipped the beast, and he will rule from Jerusalem after "crushing" the nations which gathered against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3) & (Revelation 16:13-16) & Daniel 2:44-45 & Revelation 19:14-15). "Home" would be Mount Zion, the citadel of king David, who will rule Israel (Ezekiel 37:15-28), with those having not worshipped the beast at his side (Revelation 20:4). The "second death" follows the millennium, when the liars, etc. meet their fate. There will be survivors from the nations/Gentiles who will "worship the King" in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16) under the threat of a "plague" (Zechariah 14:18) for non compliance.
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    As man was made in the image of God, and woman of the rib of man, I am thinking that praying to mother earth, would be in the realm of the Wiccans. And when the Catholics are praying to the queen of heaven, it is in regards to Mary, who is not in heaven, and relates more to the worship of Ishtar/Easter, on her holy day.
     
  7. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    If the prayer is "thy kingdom come, on earth as in heaven", why doesn't it say thy kingdom stay in place, and we will climb Jacob's ladder and come to heaven? You seem confused, yet seem to have no idea where your confusion comes from.
     
  8. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Ah, a true fundamentalist.
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware that the Roman Catholics stopped believing in Genesis.
     
  10. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Its not a matter of believing, but understanding its purpose as it relates to the whole.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I am sure the Catholics have a lock on that. What, wait a minute, Galileo just called and said he didn't think the Catholic church has a lock on anything. Wait, I put Galileo on hold, and Da Vinci is saying the same thing.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Right, there is No 1Cor.16, but at 1 Corinthians 15:24-26 it lets us know 'enemy death ' will be brought to nothing.
    True, under this system all die, but I find Jesus will undo death - Revelation 1:18.
    The resurrection is for the 'last day' (Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth)-John 11:24; John 6:40,44
    So, during Jesus 1,000-year reign over Earth the dead will be resurrected.- Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
    No victory for death - Isaiah 25:8.
    Righteous mankind will see the return of the Genesis 'tree of life' for 'healing' earth's nations - Revelation 22:2.
    No one will say, " I am sick....." according to Isaiah 33:24.
    Those judged as righteous will be healthy as described at Isaiah 35th chapter.

    As far as people alive on Earth at the coming ' time of separating ' on Earth please notice at Matthew 25:31-33,37 because those judged as humble ' sheep ' are thus counted as being 'righteous ones' although still Not having human perfection at this time frame.
    If they continue in Jesus' favor they can continue to life and gain everlasting life on Earth.
    So, those who come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 and are still judged as righteous ones at the end of the thousand years, they will gain everlasting life, alive forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth.

    I find the definition of the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) is: 'second death '.
    At Revelation 20:13-14 we read that after everyone in biblical hell is 'delivered up' (meaning resurrected out of hell)
    then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into 'second death ' .
    Jesus will destroy Satan as per Hebrews 2:14B
    Satan ends up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8.
    So, ' second death ' is a fitting term for: destruction.
    Satan is a wicked sinner. All the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7
    Sinner Satan will thus come to a final end.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Back in the middle to late 60's a mother came to work having red-hot with anger.
    She told us her child who graduated Catholic grade school and now started at Catholic High School.
    The child came home from High School and told the mother they could forget all about Genesis.
    Genesis was just stories for children.
    Afterwards, when I told this to an older Catholic cousin of mine she said that was right.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    We do Not pray thy kingdom stay in place.
    We do Not pray 'take me up' to the kingdom.
    We do Not pray 'take me away' to the kingdom.
    We are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come.
    Come and bring kingdom blessings to Earth as described at Revelation 22:2.
    God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) does Not have to be literal on Earth, but to govern from the heavens.
    Just as Jesus is Not literally present today but he still does govern over the Christian congregation.
     
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  15. OtherSheep

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    Revelation 12 tells us that Satan coming down will be the last of three woes. And... Michael hasn't stood up yet... in view of Daniel's chronology.

    My quote included Iesous telling us point blank what we must do to be on the rock... you missed it because Paulianity blinded you??

    Can you show me where Iesous says any such thing?? Because I can definitely show you where it does not. In fact, Israel is so very real that all the tribes are individually mentioned, in a meaningful order, as marked in Revelation. Grafted in... because they are living with the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel?? or because they don't know who they are... only that they have heard His voice and are following Him?? Paul falls under the heading of Judah... and the Pharisees. (1) as he is cursed with the prophecy of Matthew 23, and (2) by calling himself a Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin [which is one of the 3 not lost tribes... and part of that nation of Judah which is a pot which will never be reassembled as a house, according to the prophet who is told that 10-tribed Israel is repurposed. Israel is the nation which is bringing forth the fruits of the Kingdom Gospel.]



    ...according to the editors who wanted to make Paul fit in... Hardly a new thing for the cursed God-Scribes to do, is it?

    Iesous tells us to keep His word/His commandments... which He tells us came straight from the Father and are, in and of themselves, eternal life. Believe for an instant that Iesous came to save you... but don't believe what Iesous tells you to do, won't do it for you.
    Paulianity is like hearing your dad tell you to buy a Ford... but going out and buying a Honda instead. Do you believe your Father, or do you believe Paul? Can't do both, since they don't speak the same doctrines. "Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve."

    Do you know that the Essenes are the ones who wrote 1 Corinthians 13? Which came first? Paul also quotes Euripides, by the way... which definitely came before Paulianity. If Paul's quote is God-breathed and God-inspired, was Euripides?

    And yet Paul is the guy who said the gifts of the Spirit are precisely those things. But no place does Iesous tell us that the Spirit will make us look a lot like what happened in the Omen. Iesous tells us that the Holy Spirit will remind us what Iesous said and explain what Iesous meant. Not only that, but Iesous is seen giving the Holy Spirit to the disciple/apostles... by the breath of His Mouth.
    Please don't tell me you think God breathed fire at either Adam or the 11. What happened at Acts looks like the fire-breathing dragon story, fleshed out.

    Which will not happen until the Heavenly King of Kings is on earth. And unless you learn to recognize the nature of God and His Son, you'll worship the beast pretending to be the latest rendition of Nebuchadnezzer [before his mind returned to him... which won't happen this time around. Prophecy has to be fulfilled, according to God, not man. Dominionism and Replacement Theology will fail.]
     
  16. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    There will be one king/shepherd, "My servant David" (Ezekiel 34:23), and he will rule the nations on earth with a "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15), and "David" will be king over "Israel", and "they shall live on the land I gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:24-25). The "son of man" (Matthew 24:51) comes to "judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats" (Ezekiel 34:17). As for the governing of the approximately 38,000 "Christian" sects, followers of the false prophet Paul, that apparently is done by the "shepherds" who eat the "fat" (Ezekiel 34:1-5) who do not feed or heal the flock, and apparently "I will destroy", and "feed them with judgment" (Ezekiel 34:16). The nations will go to Jerusalem to "worship the king" (Zechariah 14:16), or they will receive a plague (Zechariah 14:18). Thy will on earth as in heaven will be levied by a rod of iron, and it will be done on earth, and the reigning will be done by "Christ" and the risen dead who did not worship the beast or acquire the mark of the beast, Constantine, whose false prophet Paul, provided the foundation for his church. As for the when, look to Zechariah 14:1-3, which states the when is when the nations are gathered against Jerusalem (Revelation 16:13-16) & (Joel 3:2) & (Zechariah 14:1).
     
  17. OtherSheep

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    And again in Matthew 28... where the 11 disciple/apostles are sent out to the [gasp!!] Gentiles... by the risen Christ... :eek: and Iesous tells them to preach to the Gentiles what Iesous had preached to them. [not the half-baked theories of Paulianity]

    And Jerusalem was under the boot of Pharisees... like Paul the infiltrator.
    That new nation is the repurposed 10-tribed Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Since the divided Kingdom, the land has belonged to Israel; and since Iesous' baptism, the crown belongs to Iesous.


    That will be news to the two witnesses and/or to the 144k... unless they plan on moving through the whole world en masse... or coming to Jerusalem of Judah to be killed, as all prophets must be, by order of the Pharisees. And what do you call Paul, if not THE lone ranger? He claims to be just that... at the self-same time he's creating his heirarchy of teachers... which Iesous forbids... and since Iesous' words will never pass away...

    ... so speaks "the Oriental contempt for women.’' [whew... glad I'm half Pelasgian.]
    Early Age Of Greece Vol.2 : Ridgeway, William : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    Jezebel was a Phoenician demoness... who teaches precisely what Paul is clearly seen teaching... duuuhh... it's a metaphor, in that the church is seen as a she. Men who think women should be barefoot and pregnant, chained to a stove... are Oriental in thought... since that's where their ideology was born. But if they think the "role" of woman doesn't lead to "friction" [at best] they're delusional [at best].

    Iesous will have women like Mary be the first one to see Him resurrected, and like Mary siting among the men, learning about our Heavenly Father from His Theanthropic Son. Not bound and gagged in the vestibule. A man who is comfortable in his masculinity will never feel threatened by this.
     
    #177 OtherSheep, Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'm sorry, but without Paul, most of the Christian scriptures lose their meaning. If you leave Paul out of the conversation then there is no conversation from my standpoint.

    If the other apostles accepted Paul as a genuine Apostle (though never one of the 12) then that is good enough for me.
    If Peter knew that Ananias and Sapphira had held back some money from the sale of their field, then holy spirit would surely have informed them that Paul was a fake.

    Its amazing to me how many people reject Paul as if he somehow contradicted Jesus's teachings and took on the difficult role of a Christian Apostle when he could have remained comfortably off as a Pharisee. Why on earth would he do that?

    Just as a point of interest....why do you use a Greek name for the Jewish son of God? Why not Yeshua? :shrug:
     
  19. OtherSheep

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    (1) Iesous is the literal translation from the witnesses of Matthew and John.
    (2) Iesous quoted the LXX, most of the time.
    (3) Greek is the language in which the New Covenant is written.
    (4) Iesous says that we will believe Him because of the words His disciples spoke... in context, Iesous was praying re: His 11.
    [Other's words in other languages would be wrong, for me... I am learning to read the Greek language that Iesous actually spoke... and for now, I use interlinear and concordance.]

    But... I wasn't entirely aware that so many people reject Paul.
    Lemme just say WOOHOO!!
    Fight the Infiltrator!!
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In the days of Jesus and his apostles, Koine was the international language of the Roman Empire. The Bible itself testifies to this fact. When Jesus was nailed to the stake, it was necessary for the inscription over his head to be posted not only in Hebrew, the language of the Jews, but also in Latin, the official language of the land, and in Greek, which was spoken on the streets of Jerusalem almost as frequently as in Rome, Alexandria, or Athens itself. (John 19:19, 20; Acts 6:1) So we have a mix.

    Is English your first language? If not why call Jesus by his Greek name when he was not Greek? Yeshua would be more appropriate as it was his name in his native Hebrew.

    It is usually those who have read the Bible and put their own interpretation on it, and when Paul's writings don't gel with what they wanted to believe, they accused his of being a heretic and lose a good deal of the Christian scriptures as a result. Without Paul, Christianity is half baked IMO. He clarifies so many details, especially about death and resurrection. He dealt with many issues and by his own example showed us how to conduct ourselves as disciples of Christ. He was recognized as a follower of Jesus by Jews and also and as an Apostle by the other Apostles.

    Acts 24:5 the Jews were said of Paul....."For we have found this man to be a pest, stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth, and he is a spearhead of the sect of the Naz·a·renesʹ." Jesus was the founder of that so called "sect".

    If God's word is God's, and not the words of men, then He will decide what is to be contained in it, and what should not. If he had the power to create the Universe and he had the power to inspire the Bible writers, then he had the power to determine what his word should contain. Paul's writings are included. Who says they shouldn't be, and by whose authority do they make this claim?

    If Paul is missing from your worldview, then I really have nothing further to say on the basis of Matthew 25:40 and 45. Whatever you do to Christ's brothers, you do to him. I believe Paul to be a brother of Christ, chosen to share rulership with him in his Kingdom.
     
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