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Featured The Lord's Prayer...What are we Praying For?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Deeje, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Say that really doesn't happen. Who would listen to such a radio station? Sounds more like a mantra of a tantra, which apparently works for the tantras.
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I have seen a few people twist scripture....but not quite like you do. Its not what you say as much as what you ignore.

    Believe whatever you wish. We will all know the truth soon enough.

    How is out there on that limb all by yourself?
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    It came from a religious radio station in my area.

    I think Catholics are the only religion that sounds like the Borg on Star Trek. *Grin*
     
  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    New American Standard Bible Joshua 23:10
    "One of your men puts to flight a thousand, for the LORD your God is He who fights for you, just as He promised you.

    We are in the days of the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem (Joel 3:1), and when "I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem" (Zechariah 12:6). On the other hand, the houses built on sand, those built on the testimony of the false prophets (Matthew 7:15) & (Matthew 7:24-27) will "fall". Your 8.5 million JWs, along with the other 38,000 following sects of Paul, would be considered among the "many" of Matthew 7:13, not the "few". If one ignores the testimony of the false prophets, everything falls in line. If one follows Paul, they become slaves of sin, and struggle as Paul, as he described in Romans 7:6, etc..
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When did this scene in heaven take place? When did Michael cast the devil and his hordes out of heaven? If it took place in heaven, how could we on earth tell when it did?

    If Jesus rejects those who fail to do the will of the Father, how can we tell who have built their house on the rock? What should we see among them? According to Paul, all must be in agreement. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    Paul spoke about "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) Since Gentiles were now part of the Christian congregation, who then is this "Israel of God"?


    Yes, not part of the original prayer.

    Not a fan of the old archaic English, but it is true that many will claim Jesus as their "Lord" come the judgment, but instead of being accepted as "sheep", Jesus rejects them as "goats. He said he NEVER knew them.

    How are we to make sure that doesn't happen to us?
    What does it mean in real terms to "do the will of the Father"?

    Miracles today, (healing particularly) I believe, are probably the works of the devil. (Those not the result of the placebo effect that is.)
    Speaking in tongues can easily be faked. Religions based mainly on emotion are suspect. It has to be based on sound knowledge. Emotions can be easily swayed....knowledge is rock solid.

    Paul indicated at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, that the gifts of God's spirit in the first century, would cease. They were a foregleam of what is to come under the Christ's rulership towards those who would inherit the earthly realm of God's Kingdom.

    "8. . . .But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. . . .When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love."

    So, not half baked miracles, but "faith, hope and love" would one identify true Christians, (John 13:34-35) as opposed to the spiritual infants who need to see 'tricks', so-called miracles which the devil can mimic, (but not very well.)

    Under the rulership of the kingdom, mankind can expect all causes of pain and suffering to be eliminated. (Revelation 21-2-4)
     
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  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "rock" , the "tested stone", is the Spirit of Revelation (Matthew 16:17), which is the Law and the testimonies (Isaiah 28:16), which would include the testimony of Yeshua (Revelation 19:10), whereas Paul's false gospel of grace/cross, which nails the Law and the testimonies, as well as the testimony of Yeshua, to a tree, is also known as the "covenant with death", and it "shall not stand" (Isaiah 18:18). Paul's testimony would be a foundation of sand, and the "house" built on it, is about to "fall" (Matthew 7:24-27).
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Indeed, scripture indicates that "few" are on the road to life, (Matthew 7:13-14) but if Jesus' instruction was that "the good news of the kingdom" was to be preached "in all the inhabited earth, as a witness to all the nations" before God brings an "end" to this present situation on earth, (Matthew 24:14) then that involves his disciples being IN all those nations taking the good news to their neighbors. (Acts of Apostles 20:20; Matthew 10:11-42)

    These are from the days of ancient Israel, whose track record was appalling. Christendom is a mirror image. The difference is that Israel had many prophets who were sent to correct her errant behavior, over many centuries. Each of those prophets died without seeing any permanent improvement in their standards.

    Jesus said something that puts all that into perspective.....

    Matthew 23:37-39...."Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

    The Jews did not treat their prophets well, to say the least. Found finally now by God's own son to be incorrigible, their house was "abandoned". God would choose a new nation of 'spiritual Israel' to serve his purpose on earth, having fulfilled his covenant with them to produce their Messiah.

    Jesus was also the last prophet that God ever sent. His death did not end his leadership over his congregation however, as he promised to be "with" his disciples in the monumental work of taking the good news to all nations. (Matthew 28:19-20) His resurrection facilitated his continuing leadership over his disciples.
    There are no longer "lone rangers".

    Jezebel was a good example of everything a woman should not be. We see the role of women in the present day to be reflective of her spirit. God gave women the complementary role of supporting the appointed heads of the family and the congregations.

    It is my belief that this mention of Jezebel is aimed at the place of women in roles that God never assigned to them. When roles are not kept in their proper place, this tends to lead to friction. Women were never given headship, not because they are somehow inferior, but because they are better co-pilots that drivers. In God's worship, women were never assigned leadership roles, but more supportive, complementary roles. Women wanting to replace men in these roles, do not have God's approval IMO.

    1 Corinthians 11:3...."But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In your opinion this is how you personally read scripture......but who shares your opinion? Seriously....who cares?

    Who says you are right?

    Your fixation on Paul, I believe will come back to bite you. What you do to Christ's "brothers" (his anointed joint heirs) you do to him.
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    If that were true, why are the leaves of the tree needed for healing of the nations?
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You live or die on the testimony of Paul. Well, Paul is dead, and all his followers will die also, despite the assurances of Paul (1 Cor 15:51) , (Jeremiah 31:30). You can either believe in Paul, or believe in Yeshua, but you can't believe in both, for their messages are antithetical. If you had the "anointing", you would not need teachers (1 John 2:27). You have nailed Yeshua's testimony to a cross, and hold up the serpent instead. That may "come back to bite you". And Paul's big lie, that you will not sleep, for breaking God's commandments, that is the same lie as the serpent gave in Genesis 3:4.

    1 Corinthians 15: 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should practice what you preach. You will find one man in a thousand, but not a woman among all these (Ecc 7:28). Your church/shepherds lead you astray (Isaiah 3:12), and do not feed nor heal you (Ezekiel 34:3-4), and yet you feel smug enough to try and teach others. What did your leader Paul say about women speaking in the congregation (1 Cor 14:34)? The LORD laughs at the wicked/sinners/lawless for their day is at hand. (Psalms 37:13). You should pay more attention to what God says, and less at the traditions of men.

    New American Standard Bible Isaiah 3:12
    O My people! Their oppressors are children, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray And confuse the direction of your paths.

    NASB Ecclesiastes 7:28
    which I am still seeking but have not found. I have found one man among a thousand, but I have not found a woman among all these.

    1 Corinthians 14:34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

    Psalms 37:12The wicked scheme against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them, 13but the Lord laughs, seeing that their day is coming. 14The wicked have drawn the sword and bent the bow to bring down the poor and needy, to slay those whose ways are upright.…
     
  12. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    Hmm… probably shouldn’t get into this, but… Oh well.

    I don’t find the Lord’s prayer a petition or request, but a statement of facts meant to guide us.

    “Our father who art in heaven”

    Love it. The source of our being is mental (in heaven- guess that means we are too.)

    “Hallowed be thy name.”

    Yeah. There’s only one source. Hallowed - reserved

    “Thy kingdom come.”

    Hallelujah! We will eventually see it.

    “Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.”

    There’s only one power. Understand it or not, see it as due to something else or not, only God’s will is done.

    “Give us this day our daily bread”

    We are the children. Our needs are met by default. (Not necessarily our wants)

    “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” (Trespasses if you like - same difference)

    This one is fascinating. The only part that seems to depend on us. We must eventually understand we are one. As we do, barriers and restrictions disappear. Debt is meaningless. Love thy neighbor.

    “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil”

    Like it or not, carrot and stick is in play and it works. Ouch!


    Very closely related is:

    “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.”
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it is ' Jerusalem ' above that is now ' Mother ' according to Galatians 4:26.
    I know of No one who would pray to heavenly Jerusalem.
    During public worship it is only one person praying at a time.
    When Jesus (our model) prayed in public others were Not praying at the same time but listening to Jesus.
    Those listening to Jesus prayer then at the end could say aloud an honest-hearted 'Amen'.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If you were trying to form a coherent statement, I think you have failed.[/QUOTE]
    What I see as failure is the failure to read the posted reference verses to verify if what is posted is accurate.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    :facepalm: Cause and effect......the healing that Jesus performed was instantaneous....but not permanent.

    Why do you think that the tree of life was in the garden of Eden? Why do you think that trees of life are not mentioned again until the Kingdom is ruling? Why stare at a few dead pixels when you are missing the big picture altogether?

    Since Paul was taught by Jesus, you can believe them both. The only way to dismiss Paul's testimony is to misread what he said. You seem to be an expert at that.

    Paul does not contradict Jesus....people who misinterpret what he wrote, do. You are not alone...lots of people question Paul's writings, but none of them agree with you in other things....so what is that all about?

    I'm supposing that you are placing yourself in that category? So, what about all the other people who claim to be "anointed" and taught by holy spirit.....the world is full of those people and so are the psyche wards. What makes you special to anyone but yourself? Do you understand this? Jesus gathered disciples because even he was not a "Lone Ranger". The work that he commanded to be done cannot be accomplished by one person whose beliefs are not shared by others in every nation. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

    It never ceases to amaze me how you grab bits from here and there to form an incoherent scenario that is completely distorted and unsupported in scripture that is read in context.
    Paul's big lie that you will not sleep? Seriously?

    Let's add the context and the reasonable explanation....?

    1 Corinthians 15:20-26...."But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."

    So here is the context. What is Paul saying that conflicts with anything Jesus said?

    V 35-41...."Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming? 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies. 37 And as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but just a bare grain, whether of wheat or of some other kind of seed; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and gives to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory."

    Paul is here describing the heavenly resurrection. Like Jesus, those who are anointed for life in heaven are to be 'kings and priests' (Revelation 20:6) and in order to attain a heavenly resurrection, they will need a spiritual body, just as Jesus did. They become glorious spirit creatures.

    V 42-47..."So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven."

    From this we understand what takes place when the dead are resurrected to heaven. It is sown a physical body, but raised as a spiritual body. Anything there contradicting anything Jesus taught? Or is Paul simply adding clarification as "the sacred mystery" was unfolding.

    V 50-52...."But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed"

    So what did Paul say directly before the verse you quoted? " We will not all fall asleep in death"....so some would sleep, some would not need to because they survived to the time of Jesus return.


    He clarified this further in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...."Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

    What is Paul saying here? He speaks of those who are "sleeping in death", awaiting the call from their Lord upon his return, to awaken them and take them "home". But those who are alive at the time of Christ's return will not need to sleep; when it is time for them to be taken, Jesus will instantly transform their bodies so that they can go with all the others. How does this in any way fight with what Jesus taught? It is just added clarification on the "how" of the resurrection.....something they already expected. They just had no idea how long some would have to "sleep".


    Why do you run off on tangents without fully understanding what Paul said? If God is teaching you, then he's falling down on the job.....but if this is all somehow your own invention, then it would make sense that its twisted.
     
    #155 Deeje, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find those 'leaves', from the returning Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth' takes place during Jesus' 1,000-year rule.
    So, it is Jesus millennium-long day of governing over Earth that restores the ' tree of life' with its 'leaves' as per Revelation 22:2, thus 'enemy death' (Revelation 21:4-5) will be No more on Earth as per 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.
     
    #156 URAVIP2ME, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Here you go again...jumping around all over the place quoting scripture that has no connection to the one before it.

    And again no understanding about what Paul was saying. No context is added to show that you have no idea what you are talking about.

    Paul taught that women were not to be teachers in the congregation. The silence was not to shut them up, but to allow the teaching to proceed uninterrupted. Women could ask their husbands at home anything they did not understand. This was in accord with Christian headship.

    Women worked side by side with Paul in his ministry so he was not a misogynist. Women featured in Jesus' ministry also. But they knew their place.
     
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    s
    Revelation 21:4-5 is about post millennium, such as Revelation 21:8 in which the "liars", "their part will be the lake of "fire". As for those who survive the great tribulation, they will be thought accursed if they die before 100 years of age (Isaiah 65:20), but die they will, for "everyone dies for their own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30). And there is no 1 Corinthians 16:24, concerning death, there is only 1 Cor 15:24-26, and "death" is not abolished until the finish of the millennium, your interpretation of the false prophet aside. And the leaves of Revelation 22:2 are used for healing, which goes without saying, someone needs to be healed.

    Isaiah 65:20 20"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Woman were not teachers during the ministry of Yeshua. They are predominate in the church of Paul, then and now, because they probably feel how can they do worse than their shepherds/leaders (Ezekiel 34:3-4). As for the quoted Scripture, they were in response to your note. As for you trying to teach on a forum with a congregation of your own brothers and sisters present, I think you are making your own rules, and disregarding the rules of your leader, the false prophet Paul. That is fine with me, but I want you to be aware, it seems a little hypocritical.
     
  20. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua's response was, "sin no more less something worse befalls you". And the healing wasn't necessarily "instantaneous", for it required an act of faith, such as "take up your board", or "wash the mud from your eyes". Some one is missing the picture, but I don't think it is me.
     
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