The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[nPeace]

Are you aware that Jonah's soul was in 'sheol'? According to Jewish thinking, 'sheol' is the place of departed souls.

According to Jewish thinking? Which Jewish thinking.
Are you aware of what Jesus said about "Jewish thinking" and that "Jewish thinking" is what got Jesus killed?

I hope you accept Jesus thinking, rather than "Jewish thinking".
The apostles were Jews, but they were instructed by Jesus, to watch out for "Jewish thinking", and avoid it.
Matthew 16:6; Matthew 23

Jonah 3:2. '...out of the belly of hell ('sheol') cried l...'
I think you meant Jonah 2:2

Yes. Jonah was in the pit of hell... a fish's belly.
That's what it says? So hell is a fish's belly?

Jonah 3:6'...yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

Let me ask you a simple question.
According to the scriptures, was Jonah alive, or did he die?
Please provide the scripture to support your answer. Thanks.

If Jonah never died, then why did Jonah arise after being vomited up on dry land? [Jonah 3:3]

You can see that for yourself.
Jonah 3:3 This time Jonah got up and went to Nineveh, in accordance with the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, requiring a three-day journey.

When you are lying down or sitting down, what do you need to do?
Was Jonah also dead before he ran away?
Jonah 1:2 "Get up! Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before Me."

Do you realize something?
Do you realize that trying to find support for a cherish belief causes one to seriously misrepresent scripture.
Peter referred to it as twisting the scriptures.
Would we really want to be guilty of that?

Why would the story of Jonah be called a 'sign' by Jesus if the story did not speak about resurrection from the dead?

Why not let Jesus answer.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

If you are seeing more than what Jesus said, perhaps you need to ask yourself a question. Am I being disobedient to these words, "Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride. . ." 1 Corinthians 4:6

Jesus made a comparison, and you do notice where he said Jonah was, right? He confirmed Jonah's words.
Jonah was in the belly of the fish... alive as a human. Would you agree?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In that day, the question will be whether we accepted Christ or not. His sacrifice for us is the only acceptable payment for our sin.

No. Our faith matters, yes.
..but it is not magic. Our faith is supposed to make us less likely to sin.
If we hold an attitude that our sins are "covered" , then we have no fear of the consequences of sin, and the devil will not have difficulty in corrupting us.
Orthodox Christianity does not teach that. It takes sin seriously.
Those that do not fear God are in danger of finding themselves in purgatory for an unspecified time.

 

[Soapy]

Yes, I'm very sad that your rejected the one who could save your soul.

Oh, you mean that I rejected Satan and hold to the truth as shown to us by Jesus Christ? Then yes.

I know which side my bread is buttered.

 

[Soapy]

God with us has certainly happened...and still happens.

God has sent a saviour. Is that what you are saying? If so then yes. As I stated in my example of the hero sent by the king to a besieged citadel.

In effect, in your backwards way, you are agreeing with what I wrote - while trying to make out that I was incorrect…. Tut tut!!!

• “If God is FOR US then who can be against us!”(Romans 8:31)
• “He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?” (Romans 8:32)

Verse 32 dictates that it is YAHWEH who is provider of the salvation… That salvation is the Son, by the death of the Son.

In effect, by the example I gave you - the Hero saves the citadel by defeating the great enemy and giving his life in the process. The king praises and immortalises the hero - putting his image in a place of honor and Glory.

The king, himself, is not the one who attends the citadel - He sends his servant, the Hero, equipped with the weapon of the Spirit of the king!!

…. Psalm 46:7.

 

[Soapy]

Of course. This is all basic Christianity.

There’s only one response to that comment and supposed belief:

• “The FARCE is strong with this one!!”

 

[Redemptionsong]

According to Jewish thinking? Which Jewish thinking.
Are you aware of what Jesus said about "Jewish thinking" and that "Jewish thinking" is what got Jesus killed?

I hope you accept Jesus thinking, rather than "Jewish thinking".
The apostles were Jews, but they were instructed by Jesus, to watch out for "Jewish thinking", and avoid it.
Matthew 16:6; Matthew 23


Yes. Jonah was in the pit of hell... a fish's belly.
That's what it says? So hell is a fish's belly?


Let me ask you a simple question.
According to the scriptures, was Jonah alive, or did he die?
Please provide the scripture to support your answer. Thanks.


You can see that for yourself.
Jonah 3:3 This time Jonah got up and went to Nineveh, in accordance with the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, requiring a three-day journey.

When you are lying down or sitting down, what do you need to do?
Was Jonah also dead before he ran away?
Jonah 1:2 "Get up! Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before Me."

View attachment 67631
View attachment 67632

Do you realize something?
Do you realize that trying to find support for a cherish belief causes one to seriously misrepresent scripture.
Peter referred to it as twisting the scriptures.
Would we really want to be guilty of that?


Why not let Jesus answer.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

If you are seeing more than what Jesus said, perhaps you need to ask yourself a question. Am I being disobedient to these words, "Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride. . ." 1 Corinthians 4:6

Jesus made a comparison, and you do notice where he said Jonah was, right? He confirmed Jonah's words.
Jonah was in the belly of the fish... alive as a human. Would you agree?

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Firstly, the English word 'hell', as used in Jonah 2:3, is 'sheol' in Hebrew. This word has a specific usage in the Hebrew scriptures. It refers to the place of the departed, the dead.

If Jonah was alive in the belly of the great fish, then he was able to breathe for three days and nights without air at the bottom of the sea [Jonah 3:6]. Is this what you believe?

Jesus, when referring to Jonah, refers to the three days and nights, as a comparison. But the comparison is meaningless if death is not part of the sign. Do you believe Jesus' body was alive in the tomb for three days and nights following crucifixion?

If Jesus' body was dead, yet he was still able to pray to the Father, then it is only reasonable to assume his soul was doing the praying.

When Jonah was vomited up on the dry land, it's clear that this refers to Jonah's body and soul, as one. And it's the Spirit of God that gives it life.

 

[Elihoenai]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

The Anomalies Arise because of what the Beholder Lacks.

Everything in the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is True, Accurate and Consistent.

Does the above statements answer the question how the Anomalies can be sorted out? Another clue is that the Beholder doesn't Really want to sort out the Anomalies.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Everything in the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is True, Accurate and Consistent.

Highly unlikely..The religious texts were compiled by different religious communities into various official collections.

Many people think that the Bible is inerrant. It relies on the belief that God has "preserved it" by not allowing any of its numerous authors to be wrong about anything.
It's a big ask..

 

[Soapy]

The Anomalies Arise because of what the Beholder Lacks.

Everything in the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is True, Accurate and Consistent.

Does the above statements answer the question how the Anomalies can be sorted out? Another clue is that the Beholder doesn't Really want to sort out the Anomalies.

The Bible scriptures - as it is now - is not totally inerrant in all places. This is because the text written has been translated by groups that profess to a trinitarian mindset. In carrying out the translation and interpretation of the translations from Hebrew to Latin, Greek to Latin, and Latin to English (or whichever modern language), many parts that did not confer on Jesus Christ a Deity element, were modified to make it seem so.

The translators were often ignorant of the act because they were told that a certain text didn’t adhere to the trinity belief. In those times people were not free to think what they liked. If they did not confirm then they would be punished severely or even killed. Even a small thing as not attending church on a Sunday could get you labelled as ungodly…

And, since in many times the ordinary person was not able to read, the preacher, priest, etc, could read and tell the anything they liked - how could the common person know it was falsified.

BUT God is not simple! And Satan is not sleeping!!

God knows that the scriptures would be made errant over time. He madd if known to the son, Jesus, who mentions strongly that anyone who does alter the scriptures would suffer badly at the judgement seat.

So we are aware that there will be discrepancies in the scriptures. But God has provided means to rectify the errors in the similar manner to how man can rectify errors in damaged data …

After-all, if man can identify and rectify errors in his data, is man greater than God?

 

[Wildswanderer]

No. Our faith matters, yes.
..but it is not magic. Our faith is supposed to make us less likely to sin.
If we hold an attitude that our sins are "covered" , then we have no fear of the consequences of sin, and the devil will not have difficulty in corrupting us.
Orthodox Christianity does not teach that. It takes sin seriously.
Those that do not fear God are in danger of finding themselves in purgatory for an unspecified time.

Of course we are less likely to sin... because of the Holy Spirit, but when we sin, we have an advocate. Purgatory isn't in the Bible.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The king, himself, is not the one who attends the citadel - He sends his servant, the Hero, equipped with the weapon of the Spirit of the king!!

Then you must ignore all the verses about Jesus being King?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Verse 32 dictates that it is YAHWEH who is provider of the salvation… That salvation is the Son, by the death of the Son.

Did I say otherwise? But they are One, as Jesus said.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Purgatory isn't in the Bible.

The word is not there, but the concept of hell is.
Jesus is reported to have said "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Actions speak louder than words.
Almighty God is the Fairest of All Judges.
Nobody gets "a free ride".

Do you really think that there is only two alternatives for what happens after we die? Heaven or hell forever?
That would make no sense. That would be unjust.

 

[Soapy]

So we agree that God is absolute truth and goodness, but we disagree about Jesus!

So it seems.

You believe Jesus was a little bit of a sinner. He was a sinner, in your eyes, because he questioned his heavenly Father, rather than submit himself to the torture of crucifixion without a murmur.

No! Those were not sins … ‘There are sins that lead to eternal death and there are sins that do not lead to eternal death’.

Those were not sins… you purposely used inflammatory words in a vain attempt to claim that I Said Jesus was a sinner. That is disputable for someone who thinks he is godly!!

Having an eager pleasure for the scriptures (Torah), though causing a problem to his parents, only showed his immature enthusiasm for the truth. He no doubt recognised many things which the Jewish leaders were in err of by their laws and, as is said, was IMPRESSING the scholars and teachers. It was around 4 days before his parents found him after an anxious search. Would you say that was ‘GOOD’?
It is ‘GODLY’ but NOT GOOD as it served no beneficial purpose because of his age - it was likely only amusement to the chief priests and scholars - Jesus had not yet been called by God!

The temple incident:

• “His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” (John 2:17)

It is written in Isaiah 42:2:

• “He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.”

Again, it is not a crime - certainly not ‘Evil’… John the Baptist raged constantly yet it was a sin! Righteous anger is not a sin though it is NOT GOOD!

So, Jesus is a sinner, like other men. Why, if that's the case, does God raise Jesus to life? Surely, God, who is perfectly holy, requires his people to be holy and righteous?

It is clear you understand the truth that I say to you and these desperate uses of claims of Jesus sinning are mere attempts to say I was wrong…. Nil points for your ungodly devils advocate approach.

How can a sinful man be our Saviour?

The very fact that Jesus was the saviour and not a sinner points to your purposely errant discord designed only to irreverently claim against the truth: remember that:

• Grieving the spirit of God (which is the spirit of truth)

is a deadly sin!

 

[Soapy]

Did I say otherwise? But they are One, as Jesus said.

“They are one” only means that Jesus agrees with the Will of God, and God approves Jesus Will.

And, in any case, ‘I and the Father are One’ does not make a trinity!!!

Stephen looking in vision into Heaven saw Jesus STANDING NEXT TO GOD… that’s TWO… Isn’t a trinity THREE?

Jesus speaks in prayer ONLY TO THE FATHER. That’s One talking to ONE… He never speaks to a THIRD person in prayer. God only speaks to Jesus - ignoring humanity and the angels, that’s ONE talking to One…. TWO!! Not a third ‘Person of your trinity’ !!

Jesus ascends TO THE FATHER… He does not ascend to a third person of your trinity…

((Can I ask? When you are found in plain site error, do you never rethink your belief?? Ones like yourself keep bringing the same errant beliefs no matter how often you are shown it is absolute wrong!))

 

[Wildswanderer]

The word is not there, but the concept of hell is.
Jesus is reported to have said "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Actions speak louder than words.
Almighty God is the Fairest of All Judges.
Nobody gets "a free ride".

Do you really think that there is only two alternatives for what happens after we die? Heaven or hell forever?
That would make no sense. That would be unjust.

Purgatory doesn't exist.
And thank God we don't get what we deserve if we are in Christ. Yes, grace is free. No, it's not an invitation to sin.

 

[Wildswanderer]

“They are one” only means that Jesus agrees with the Will of God, and God approves Jesus Will.

And, in any case, ‘I and the Father are One’ does not make a trinity!!!

Stephen looking in vision into Heaven saw Jesus STANDING NEXT TO GOD… that’s TWO… Isn’t a trinity THREE?

Jesus speaks in prayer ONLY TO THE FATHER. That’s One talking to ONE… He never speaks to a THIRD person in prayer. God only speaks to Jesus - ignoring humanity and the angels, that’s ONE talking to One…. TWO!! Not a third ‘Person of your trinity’ !!

Jesus ascends TO THE FATHER… He does not ascend to a third person of your trinity…

((Can I ask? When you are found in plain site error, do you never rethink your belief?? Ones like yourself keep bringing the same errant beliefs no matter how often you are shown it is absolute wrong!))

I have not found any error in the Trinity doctrine, just the opposite.
The Holy Spirit is spoken of often in the Bible. Do you just ignore that?
So you are ok with Jesus being God if there's no third person?
Thanks for confirming Jesus and the Father are One.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Purgatory doesn't exist

..so many people say hell does not exist.
That is their own thought, and has no scriptural basis.

And thank God we don't get what we deserve if we are in Christ..

Yes, I agree with you that God's Mercy is exceedingly wide..
..nevertheless, we should seek forgiveness on a regular basis, and try to avoid sin.
The trick of the devil is to make one think "I'm saved. I'm going to heaven, and the others aren't", yet we all have different creeds?
..don't take anything for granted .. that's my attitude.

 

[Redemptionsong]

So it seems.

No! Those were not sins … ‘There are sins that lead to eternal death and there are sins that do not lead to eternal death’.

Those were not sins… you purposely used inflammatory words in a vain attempt to claim that I Said Jesus was a sinner. That is disputable for someone who thinks he is godly!!

Having an eager pleasure for the scriptures (Torah), though causing a problem to his parents, only showed his immature enthusiasm for the truth. He no doubt recognised many things which the Jewish leaders were in err of by their laws and, as is said, was IMPRESSING the scholars and teachers. It was around 4 days before his parents found him after an anxious search. Would you say that was ‘GOOD’?
It is ‘GODLY’ but NOT GOOD as it served no beneficial purpose because of his age - it was likely only amusement to the chief priests and scholars - Jesus had not yet been called by God!

The temple incident:

• “His disciples remembered that it is written: “Zeal for your house will consume me.” (John 2:17)

It is written in Isaiah 42:2:

• “He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.”

Again, it is not a crime - certainly not ‘Evil’… John the Baptist raged constantly yet it was a sin! Righteous anger is not a sin though it is NOT GOOD!


It is clear you understand the truth that I say to you and these desperate uses of claims of Jesus sinning are mere attempts to say I was wrong…. Nil points for your ungodly devils advocate approach.

The very fact that Jesus was the saviour and not a sinner points to your purposely errant discord designed only to irreverently claim against the truth: remember that:

• Grieving the spirit of God (which is the spirit of truth)

is a deadly sin!

I've listened to a lot of threats coming from Unitarians. l'm resolved not to let you, or any other, deter my unveiling of the error!

If there's any dishonesty here, it exists in your denial that Jesus was perfectly good.

Just because Jesus does not appear perfect in the eyes of some men, does not make him any less perfect in the eyes of his heavenly Father!

Jesus himself said that only God is good; and he meant perfectly good. This is no different to saying that God is without sin, and perfectly holy.

So, let me ask you again. Was Jesus Christ perfectly good and perfectly holy? It's a Yes, or a No!

 

[Wildswanderer]

.so many people say hell does not exist.
That is their own thought, and has no scriptural basis.

Hell has plenty of scriptural backing. Purgatory doesn't have any.