The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[Redemptionsong]

I'm aware that he foretold that he would be sentenced to death on the cross, and that he would "rise again".


Mmm, and that's when we get to the theories of atonement and what have you.
It's all down to interpretation.
I don't agree with original sin and sacrificial atonement.

The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is that, 'in Adam all die' [1 Corinthians 15:22] This was God's forewarning in Genesis 2:17.

All men die (which is 'the wages of sin') as forewarned by God. The only answer to such a predicament is for a man to provide new life by living a sinless existence, and restoring righteousness. This is something only God, living as a man, can do.

There are no other ways to solve the crisis of sin. Death is already with us.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Hmmm… ‘We have but one God: The Father, and One Lord: Jesus Christ’ and Jesus is the mediator between God:The Father, and mankind.

But you are saying that the mediator between GOD and Man is GOD, Himself?

I thought Jesus BECAME the mediator because he is the grace given by God!

((God gave us grace - and the grace given by God is Jesus Christ. Jesus IS the grace that God gave!))

I actually agree with you, here. God gave us grace, and that grace is Jesus Christ! Yes, but only if you accept that Jesus Christ is the SPIRIT of grace. God is Spirit and the Spirit is above, amongst, and within. This means the Holy Spirit is of the Father, was in Jesus, and is present in the Church, the body of 'born again' believers.

The body of believers cannot make their 'way' to God the Father without receiving the grace that is Jesus Christ. This means receiving his Spirit!

 

[muhammad_isa]

All men die (which is 'the wages of sin') as forewarned by God.

Yes, we all have to die.

The only answer to such a predicament is for a man to provide new life by living a sinless existence, and restoring righteousness. This is something only God, living as a man, can do.

No.
The world before and after the resurrection is basically the same.
It hasn't magically changed.
What has changed, is that the Christian church evolved, along with its teachings.
..but that is a long story.

There are no other ways to solve the crisis of sin. Death is already with us.

The only thing we can do is to believe in our Creator, and the scriptures he has given us, in order to keep away from evil.
The belief in sacrificial atonement is just a distraction, imo.

Jesus taught that there is a life after death, and there is heaven and hell.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, we all have to die.


No.
The world before and after the resurrection is basically the same.
It hasn't magically changed.
What has changed, is that the Christian church evolved, along with its teachings.
..but that is a long story.


The only thing we can do is to believe in our Creator, and the scriptures he has given us, in order to keep away from evil.
The belief in sacrificial atonement is just a distraction, imo.

Jesus taught that there is a life after death, and there is heaven and hell.

If you accept that all men die, then how do you think people are to inherit eternal life? Is it within your power to live eternally?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you accept that all men die, then how do you think people are to inherit eternal life? Is it within your power to live eternally?

Not a lot is within my power, unfortunately.

I believe that God Almighty is eternal, and that our souls all belong to Him.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
- Matthew 25 -

I believe that our souls are eternal.
The exact meaning of eternal in this context is not absolutely certain, but it is surely a long time.

I also believe that nobody will be wronged.
Many people suffer in this life due to evil,
and God is the fairest of all judges.
He sees all.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not a lot is within my power, unfortunately.

I believe that God Almighty is eternal, and that our souls all belong to Him.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
- Matthew 25 -

I believe that our souls are eternal.
The exact meaning of eternal in this context is not absolutely certain, but it is surely a long time.

I also believe that nobody will be wronged.
Many people suffer in this life due to evil,
and God is the fairest of all judges.
He sees all.

The trouble is, if you are powerless to do anything about death, how can you possibly hope to be with God when you come to the end of your life? Death is the opposite of life, and 'hell' is the grave.

If you, or l, do not have an answer for death then we are already judged, because 'in Adam all die'. We don't have to await God's future judgement, because God passed judgement when he told Adam that to eat of the fruit of tree of good and evil would result in death. And death is with us now.

The only judgement that can be passed on people now is whether they have found the Saviour, and live in the righteousness of God!

Do you think you know God's righteousness?

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes.
We all rely on God to guide us to a straight path.

None of us are perfect .. we are all sinners.
Those who are sincere and seek, will find.
A spiritual journey that is dependent on the heart.

Matthew 5:48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Yes, the Sincere will find the True Spiritual Path to Elohim/God. Those that have not found the True Spiritual Path to Elohim/God reveals that they are Not Really Sincere.


The Christians, Muslims and Religious Jews assert the same teaching, that None of us is Perfect and we are all Sinners. None of the 3.1 Billion members of the Abrahamic Religions have found out how to get Sinless Perfection.


The Few Hundred/thousand Elect out of 7.9 Billion have Attained Sinless Perfection.


@muhammad_isa Do you believe Sinless Perfection is Attainable?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you believe Sinless Perfection is Attainable?

No. We are all sinners.
There are major sins and minor sins, and while there are many people who do not commit major sins, minor sins are almost unavoidable, for the vast majority of us.
..like idle talk, back-biting, overeating, miserliness etc.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Death is the opposite of life, and 'hell' is the grave.

I often wish that were true, but I cannot believe that.
It is natural to want to live a happy life, and be in a paradise with the righteous.
..but I don't see that Jesus taught that any soul would just vanish without trace after death. We reap what we sow.

Do you think you know God's righteousness?

I think I'm aware of the basics .. such as the ten commandments, for example.
Putting knowledge into practice is another issue. Not easy.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I often wish that were true, but I cannot believe that.
It is natural to want to live a happy life, and be in a paradise with the righteous.
..but I don't see that Jesus taught that any soul would just vanish without trace after death. We reap what we sow.


I think I'm aware of the basics .. such as the ten commandments, for example.
Putting knowledge into practice is another issue. Not easy.

What you are telling me is that you understand the law. The law outlines what is required to be righteous. Everyone living under the law is required to do ALL that is in the law to fulfil the law.

Have you fulfilled the law in righteousness? If you haven't then you are a sinner. If you are a sinner, then you will not have eternal life.

The Gospel message is that Jesus fulfilled the law, and is righteous. He is righteous, not just before men, under the law, but more importantly, before God his Father. To be righteous before God, you must be perfect.

What l'm saying to you is that you are living under law, not grace. If you were living under grace, you would know that there is only one Saviour, and that the Saviour is God in Christ. It is not a teaching that you follow, but a person. It was not a teaching that overcame death, but a person! This is why you must have faith in the one who overcame, in order that his righteousness might become your righteousness!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Have you fulfilled the law in righteousness? If you haven't then you are a sinner. If you are a sinner, then you will not have eternal life..

I think that there are too many creeds, particularly since the Reformation.
We must take the Bible as a whole, and not ignore verses that don't fit into our world view.
In my opinion, we are all sinners, and that is why we ask God to forgive us our trespasses [sins].

What l'm saying to you is that you are living under law, not grace..

The grace of God refers to His infinite Mercy for humans that are repentant.
Our faith in God should make us more law abiding, more righteous.
It is not a case of either/or.

If you were living under grace, you would know that there is only one Saviour, and that the Saviour is God in Christ..

That is all very well, but there must be law in a society.
..and mankind are the ones who decide what it will be.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think that there are too many creeds, particularly since the Reformation.
We must take the Bible as a whole, and not ignore verses that don't fit into our world view.
In my opinion, we are all sinners, and that is why we ask God to forgive us our trespasses [sins].


The grace of God refers to His infinite Mercy for humans that are repentant.
Our faith in God should make us more law abiding, more righteous.
It is not a case of either/or.


That is all very well, but there must be law in a society.
..and mankind are the ones who decide what it will be.

Yes, l agree that there should be law in society; the law is there to provide justice, and be objective. But, as an individual, it is not the law that saves you. You must seek salvation through faith.

If God were to apply his law through justice, then you and I are 'done for'. Already, you have admitted that we have not managed to keep God's law perfectly.

So, you and I look for the mercy of God. We look for forgiveness from God. Does God forgive? Yes, through his Son, he offers forgiveness of sins. His Son, Jesus, has died in order to take sin away.

Meditate on these words, spoken by Jesus to the Jews of his day:
'And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.'

The expression 'I am' is a reference to God as eternal Spirit, and Jesus is clearly stating that Christ comes from God. So, if you don't believe in Jesus as the Christ, the anointed of God, then you die in your sins. Belief in Jesus is central to salvation, and involves the forgiveness of sins. This means accepting that he bore the sin of mankind on the cross, and that he rose again because death had no hold on him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, there must be law in society, and that is why the law aims to create justice, and be objective. But, as an individual, it is not the law that saves you. You must seek salvation through faith.

If God were to apply his law through justice, then you and I are 'done for'..

Yes, God is Most Merciful.
I agree that it is not "the law" that saves you, for without faith we wouldn't be so mindful of the law. We might even try to find loopholes etc.

'And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.'

I believe that. A person that denied he was the Messiah, would have their reasons, despite it being well-known who he was, and the authority he had from God.

 

[Elihoenai]

No. We are all sinners.
There are major sins and minor sins, and while there are many people who do not commit major sins, minor sins are almost unavoidable, for the vast majority of us.
..like idle talk, back-biting, overeating, miserliness etc.

2 Peter 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



@muhammad_isa You will Perish being a Sinner.


Some people are more Sinful than others, yet they all Perish not being able to stop Sinning.


Elohim/God has Highly Exalted Incomparable Standards. What Man regards Minor Sins is Major Great Sins in Elohim's/Gods' eyes.


The reason why 4.1 Billion (Correct Maths this time) members of the Abrahamic Religions cannot stop Sinning is because All of you are Really Practising Left-Hand Path Religion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The reason why 4.1 Billion (Correct Maths this time) members of the Abrahamic Religions cannot stop Sinning is because All of you are Really Practising Left-Hand Path Religion.

Oh, really?
Does that include you?
If not, why not?

 

[Elihoenai]

Oh, really?
Does that include you?
If not, why not?

Matthew 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Every person on the Planet of 7.9 Billion, including 4.1 Billion members of Abrahamic Religions, are Practising Left-Hand Path Religion apart from a Few hundred/thousand Elect.

At present I'm numbered among you 7.9 Billion Masses and I Am Transitioning to the Few Elect. The 7.9 Billion Masses have No Hope and Will Perish being a Sinner.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The 7.9 Billion Masses have No Hope and Will Perish..

How encouraging..

 

[Elihoenai]

How encouraging..

Revelation 18:4

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


It's Encouraging for the Few that want to Come Out of those 7.9 Billion Partaking in Sins. Compassion is being showed, as I'm Not Lying to the 7,9 Billion with No Hope that Will Surely Perish being Sinners.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's Encouraging for the Few that want to Come Out of those 7.9 Billion Partaking in Sins..

It's not easy in this day and age, although it's never been easy.

The fact that I believe that we are all sinners, does not mean that we shouldn't try not to sin. Of course we should.
We are the ones that suffer due to sin.

I do not believe in a "sinless priesthood" of any religious denomination.

 

[Elihoenai]

It's not easy in this day and age, although it's never been easy.

The fact that I believe that we are all sinners, does not mean that we shouldn't try not to sin. Of course we should.
We are the ones that suffer due to sin.

I do not believe in a "sinless priesthood" of any religious denomination.

Sinless Perfection being Absolute Opposite to Easy is the Hardest Road to Travel and that's why it's Rejected by the Masses. This is True throughout all the Generations that Inherited Adam's Rebellion.


The 4.1 Billion Members of the Abrahamic Religions Do Not Believe in a Sinless Priesthood.


Your teaching on Sin is consistent with the teachings of Christianity, Judaism and Islam.


Only a Few hundred/thousand Elect Practice Sinless Priesthood Attaining Sinless Perfection.