The Lords Prayer - ‘Thine is the Kingdom…’

[Soapy]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

 

[exchemist]

The cracked record continues to revolve................

 

[Soapy]

The cracked record continues to revolve................

The pay is great, though!

 

[AlexanderG]

I mean, isn't John the only gospel, and the only place in the bible, where Jesus claims to be god?

John was also the last gospel to be written, and is placed at least 60 years after Jesus' death, if not even later. If you look at the pattern of claims in each gospel, they become more and more supernatural with each later retelling, and the non-canonical gospels after John are even more grandiose, with talking crosses, Jesus' head reaching into the clouds, apostles having magic powers, etc.

It seems most likely that Jesus never actually claimed to be god, and so most of the words attributed to him don't carry that implication. The doctrine of the trinity came much later, after various sects of Christianity had been fighting with each other and suppressing or destroying each others' writings, right?

 

[exchemist]

I mean, isn't John the only gospel, and the only place in the bible, where Jesus claims to be god?

John was also the last gospel to be written, and is placed at least 60 years after Jesus' death, if not even later. If you look at the pattern of claims in each gospel, they become more and more supernatural with each later retelling, and the non-canonical gospels after John are even more grandiose, with talking crosses, Jesus' head reaching into the clouds, apostles having magic powers, etc.

It seems most likely that Jesus never actually claimed to be god, and so most of the words attributed to him don't carry that implication. The doctrine of the trinity came much later, after various sects of Christianity had been fighting with each other and suppressing or destroying each others' writings, right?

It seems to be the case that St John's gospel is the one with the most developed theology, including the idea of Jesus as God, though there are some suggestions in other places, esp. St Paul, I think.

But as far as I know, even Jehovah's Witnesses accept St John's gospel.

 

[Fool]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

the part that is referenced solely as hallowed, is what jesus instructed his disciples to baptize in

 

[paarsurrey]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

And (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, also cannot forgive sins (on his own) but only G-d the Father can forgive sins and G-d the Father is only the Savior, not (Jesus) Yeshua, please, right?

Regards

 

[PureX]

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

I think the distinction here is the phrase; "In Jesus' name, we pray." And by that I think what is meant is that one is praying to God, through the revelation and promise of Christ (as embodied and illuminated for us by Jesus).

I, personally, ignore all that extra gibberish, but to some Christians, it is considered an essential caveat.

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

The power to forgive is given to us all. For "as we forgive others, so shall we be forgiven". We can all forgive each other, because we are all in need of forgiveness. To me, the idea of free and mutual forgiveness is one of the most important aspects of Christianity. Which makes me puzzled by the fact that so many professing Christians are so UNforgiving of others.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

Yeah, probably because they don't want to forgive anyone of anything.

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

What makes you think this needs to be "sorted out"? People see, experience, and understand everything about the world in their own unique ways. And God bless us all, for that! If we were all the same only one of us would need to exist at a time. And how boring would THAT be!

 

[Altfish]

In Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus lays out a model prayer (a petition) that godly men should follow.

It is not meant to be repeated vainly nor repetitively (‘as heathens do’ verse 7)

In the model prayer, Jesus projects all things towards the Father:

• ‘Our Father who is in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name; Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’

Jesus infers the name of the Father be kept ‘Hallowed’ (Sacred), and that all things belong to the Father; that the kingdom is HIS. Also that it is desired that HIS Will be done by mankind just as it is done by the holy angels of Heaven.

There is an order to the prayer (which I won’t go into here) which culminates in Jesus again glorifying the Father:

• ‘For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever’

Jesus indicates that the prayer must be rubber stamps with an ‘Amen’, which means that it is a true, honest, venerable, unselfish, heartfelt prayer.

But if we are to pray to the Father (and there is no indication of anyone else to pray to) how is it that many people say that we should pray to JESUS?

Added to that, the very next verse after the model prayer, Jesus says that we should forgive the trespasses of men (obviously with caution and regard to judicial systems!!) so that the FATHER will forgive us (as mentioned in the model prayer). The outcome is that forgiveness comes from the FATHER or ourselves, as in men can forgive men, and the Father can forgive men.
Not only that but Jesus says at another time that it is given to the son of man to forgive sins.

But many people say that only the Father can forgive sins…?

I see a disparity between certain sects of Christianity and what the scriptures say. In the snapshot above, it is clear that Jesus does not call himself ‘God’ (aka: the Father) but rather, he attributes all things to the God.

How can these anomalies be sorted out?

I was taught this by rote at Primary School and can still recite it now despite being an atheist for 50-years

 

[AlexanderG]

It seems to be the case that St John's gospel is the one with the most developed theology, including the idea of Jesus as God, though there are some suggestions in other places, esp. St Paul, I think.

But as far as I know, even Jehovah's Witnesses accept St John's gospel.

Yes, I understand the gospel of John is accepted by Christians. I'm saying they don't have good reasons for doing so.

We have countless proven examples of people embellishing and adding false details to stories over time, and zero proven examples of anyone rising from the dead or being the incarnation of a god. It is far, far more reasonable and likely that John is largely fictional, penned less for actual truth and more for the purpose of advancing the appeal of a theology to convert more followers.

After all, this is how every other religion and cult starts, right? Induction indicates this is most likely the case for Christianity as well.

 

[paarsurrey]

It seems to be the case that St John's gospel is the one with the most developed theology, including the idea of Jesus as God, though there are some suggestions in other places, esp. St Paul, I think.

But as far as I know, even Jehovah's Witnesses accept St John's gospel.

But (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah did not approve it, right?

Regards

 

[Soapy]

And (Jesus) Yeshua- the Israelite Messiah, also cannot forgive sins (on his own) but only G-d the Father can forgive sins and G-d the Father is only the Savior, not (Jesus) Yeshua, please, right?

Regards

ANYONE can forgive a person who commits a sin against them.

Only the person against whom the sin is committed has the right to forgive the perpetrator since the hurt is against them.

THEREFORE a sin against GOD can only be forgiven BY GOD…

A sin against your fellow man can be forgiven by the offended fellow man.

If it is possible to forgive your fellow man perpetrator, Jesus says this is good for your spiritual life. But it must be a sincere forgiveness. You can’t ‘bring it back to mind’ at a later time.

• “But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” (Matthew 6:15)

 

[exchemist]

Yes, I understand the gospel of John is accepted by Christians. I'm saying they don't have good reasons for doing so.

We have countless proven examples of people embellishing and adding false details to stories over time, and zero proven examples of anyone rising from the dead or being the incarnation of a god. It is far, far more reasonable and likely that John is largely fictional, penned less for actual truth and more for the purpose of advancing the appeal of a theology to convert more followers.

After all, this is how every other religion and cult starts, right? Induction indicates this is most likely the case for Christianity as well.

Soapy is a JW, that's what I was getting at.

 

[paarsurrey]

Soapy is a JW, that's what I was getting at.

Is he?

Regards

 

[Soapy]

I was taught this by rote at Primary School and can still recite it now despite being an atheist for 50-years

Reciting the Lord’s Prayer is not reverend to God. I stated at least twice that if is a model prayer. It is not the way to use the model as a ritual… it is not heartfelt nor personal. The model should be expressed as”:

1. Acknowledge the greatness of the Father and that He is the sole God and owner of all things
2. Acknowledge that you are sinful and Ask for forgiveness of your sins… and hopefully that you, too, are also forgiving your fellow man their sins against you.
3. Ask for what it is you are praying for but make it unselfish, needworthy, genuine, honest, sincere
4. Pray that God does not TEST you too harshly (God does not TEMPT a person!!) but if you are TESTED harshly then pray that you may bare it
5. Close off by (Like an opening and closing brackets) with acknowledgement to the Father that he is the one and only Almighty God
6. The ‘Amen’ is to SEAL the prayer in the name of righteousness and holiness to God

 

[Soapy]

Soapy is a JW, that's what I was getting at.

Sorry, no such thing!

Why do you say that… have you not seen me rail against JW doctrine in this forum (in fact, every forum I’ve been in!)

 

[Altfish]

Reciting the Lord’s Prayer is not reverend to God. I stated at least twice that if is a model prayer. It is not the way to use the model as a ritual… it is not heartfelt nor personal. The model should be expressed as”:

1. Acknowledge the greatness of the Father and that He is the sole God and owner of all things
2. Acknowledge that you are sinful and Ask for forgiveness of your sins… and hopefully that you, too, are also forgiving your fellow man their sins against you.
3. Ask for what it is you are praying for but make it unselfish, needworthy, genuine, honest, sincere
4. Pray that God does not TEST you too harshly (God does not TEMPT a person!!) but if you are TESTED harshly then pray that you may bare it
5. Close off by (Like an opening and closing brackets) with acknowledgement to the Father that he is the one and only Almighty God
6. The ‘Amen’ is to SEAL the prayer in the name of righteousness and holiness to God

But none of those reasons mean anything to an atheist.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sorry, no such thing!

Do you attend Sunday worship?
Which congregation do you prefer?

 

[Soapy]

I thought this was forum section was about Christian ‘Scriptural Debate’?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I thought this was forum section was about Christian ‘Scriptural Debate’?

What?
The Bible isn't the only "Scripture", you know.
I think that it is good to know what "platform" the individual debaters are arguing on.

Personally, I argue from a Muslim/Christian platform.
I do not believe that Jesus is God.

I have recently attended a mosque, Methodist church and JW kingdom hall.
What about you?