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"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
But you haven't responded to the list I posted above (#348). Do you say they're all forgeries? Lies? Errors of translation? The devil corrupting scripture? Or do you think they align with the history of the Christian church, which as I said had early pressure to elevate its central character to God status but couldn't agree how till they settled for the incoherent Trinity doctrine in the 4th century?

Isaiah 9:6 looks back to 7:14. The government was on the shoulder of the child the lady bore in Isaiah. That, like everything else in the Tanakh, has nothing to do with Jesus.

2 Corinthians 21: Makes no claim that Jesus is God. Why would it? for Paul, Jesus is "Lord" to the glory of the Father who is God.

Colossians 2:9 merely affirms Jesus' status as God's envoy. If you're the US ambassador to somewhere, in you by agency dwells the full authority of the Presidency.

Hebrews 1:3 does not say Jesus is God. Again it says Jesus wields God's authority.

Hebrews 1:8 πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν ὁ θρόνος equally translates as "God is your throne".

Mark 1:24: "the Holy One of God" (a) is not said by Mark's Jesus and (b) doesn't mean "God".

Matthew 1:23 invokes Isaiah 7:14. The name Immanuel means "God is with us". It does not mean "I am God." Do you think Kant's mother thought she had born a god?

John 1-4 identifies Jesus as the personification of a quality of God, the logos. (Some have suggested that means God's wisdom.) It doesn't say Jesus is God. It says he was in the beginning with God and part of God.

John 5:18 contains no claim by Jesus to be God nor any claim by critics that he's God, only "equal to God".

John 8:58 As I said, in John, Jesus exists in heaven with God and creates the material universe, so in that version, before Abraham he certainly WAS.

John 10:30 Read John 17 and see the manner in which Jesus is one with God and how you too can be one with God in exactly the same manner.

John 20:28 Jesus makes no claim to be God. Thomas' awestruck epithet doesn't alter that.

Acts 10:41 doesn't contain any claim that Jesus is God. The reference is to the Jewish God in the preceding verse.

1 Peter 1:1 contains no claim that Jesus is God.

Titus 2:13 Yes, it calls him God. David gets called God (Psalm 45:6) too. But Titus is low-status, one of the three pseudepigraphical "pastorals", and I don't think I'd prefer it, even as flattery, to the robust denials by all five Jesuses, as I've quoted you.

Not at all. You were directly shown the scriptures in the post you were quoting from that state Jesus is God. You just chose to ignore them. In post # 347 linked you were also directly told that the list you are trying to respond to (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1) in the linked post was a list that included both a list of scripture that say (1) Jesus in God and (2) that Jesus was creator and (3) in the beginning with God. That list was never a list of scripture directly stating Jesus was God. So why pretend that was what I was saying? I posted out the scriptures in full in the same linked post stating that Jesus was God from the gospel writers and the Apostles. You just chose to conveniently ignore them.

You were shown in post # 347 linked the scripture referring to Jesus as God by the writers of the Gospels and Apostles, and post # 349 linked you were shown your claims to one God and Jesus not being God was in error. You just simply ignored both of those post. I wonder why? Not a single scripture you provided in your posts disagree with anything shared with you. If you believe that is not true let's discuss it. However I do not think our discussion will go to far if your going to continue to ignore the content of my posts shared with you and pretend that there is no scripture in the bible calling Jesus God by the gospel writers and the Apostles. That would be simply a lie.

Here let me post them again and give me your response....

As posted earlier, the scripture provided to you (the list of all scriptures) dear friend were direct quotes stating that (1) not only did Jesus pre-exist creation but that (2) Jesus was the God of creation. Did you read them Here lets look at a few I do not think you read them..
  • JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.
John makes it very clear what he is talking about here...
  • 1 JOHN 5:20 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son JESUS CHRIST HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
The Apostles Thomas also believed Jesus was God here...
  • JOHN 20:28 28 Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!
As does Paul quoting God here...
  • HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.
Peter knew Jesus was God and states so here...
  • 2 PETER 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST
Paul shows his belief that Jesus is God here...
  • TITUS 2:1313 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST
The Jews continued to seek to kill Jesus because he they claimed Jesus was claiming himself to be God here...
  • JOHN 10:30-33 30 I and the father are one. 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.”
The Angel even calls Jesus God here..
  • LUKE 1:35 “The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and HE WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD
So yes you were provided scripture evidence showing that the gospel writers and the Apostles believed Jesus was God. Stating anything otherwise is simply being dishonest but I prefer to believe you were not being dishonest but perhaps you simply did not read the scripture evidence shared with you and did not know.
Dear oh dear, what a waste of time!
Agreed it is a waste of time if your not going to respond to my posts and scriptures shared with you and try and build and tare down paper dragons no one is talking about. You were told in post # 347 linked already that that the this list (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1) was a list of scriptures showing that Jesus was from the beginning with God and the God of creation testified by the gospel writers and Apostles. You were also shown in post # 347 linked the scriptures by the gospel writers and the Apostles testifying that Jesus is God. You were not told that every scripture in that list was a reference to Jesus being God. I posted those out in full and you ignored then in the very post you were responding to. While in post # 349 linked you were shown that any claim that there was only "one" God singular is not supported in the scriptures. Once again you choose to ignore these scriptures because they prove your interpretation of the scriptures is in error.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
The point is that you are trying to use the Bible as "proof". You simply cannot do that without justification. Or are we just playing silly Spiderman games?
You making things up now. Follow the discussion and contribute. Don't make up things no one is talking about as it is just a distraction.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
But you haven't responded to the list I posted above (#348).

Do you say they're all forgeries? Lies? Errors of translation? The devil corrupting scripture?

Or do you think they align with the history of the Christian church, which as I said had early pressure to elevate its central character to God status but couldn't agree how till they settled for the incoherent Trinity doctrine in the 4th century?

What's the story?
As posted earlier there is no lies forgeries and errors this was all pointed out to you and harmonized to you with the scriptures you ignored in earlier posts.

I did indeed respond to the list of scriptures you posted in post # 348. Your post was trying to argue that only God the father was a singular (one) God. As posted earlier Jesus came to live and die as a man for the sins of the world and not as God while living as a man which answers most of the scriptures you posted (I posted on this earlier).

You were also shown in in post # 347 linked the scriptures directly posted out in full by the gospel writers and the Apostles stating that Jesus is God from the beginning with the father and the creator of heaven and earth, and in post # 349 you were shown your that your interpretation of the scriptures you provided of only one singular God was in error.

There was not a single scripture you posted that was in disagreement with the list of scriptures posted to you earlier showing the the gospel writers and the Apostles believed that Jesus is God. If you disagree lets discuss the detail and show why you disagree. It seems you just simply ignored my posts to you and are unwilling to discuss the scripture content you claim are in disagreement with the scriptures I already posted to you in favor of building and tearing down paper dragons no one is talking about. I wonder why? No more distractions please.

Lets discuss the scripture detail.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You making things up now. Follow the discussion and contribute. Don't make up things no one is talking about as it is just a distraction.
No, I am not. If anyone is guilty of that it is you. You really should try to learn how we know that quite a bit of the Bible is mythical.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
No, I am not. If anyone is guilty of that it is you. You really should try to learn how we know that quite a bit of the Bible is mythical.
Sorry I do not believe you. According to the scriptures I believe we can never find God in sin and unbelief. Lets talk more when you have something to contribute to the discussion. Until then of course we will agree to disagree. Take Care dear friend
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry I do not believe you. According to the scriptures I believe we can never find God in sin and unbelief. Lets talk more when you have something to contribute to the discussion. Until then of course we will agree to disagree. Take Care dear friend
So what? Who cares? You have not shown the Bible to be reliable. I might as well quote the Bible of the Flying Spaghetti Monster to you. They both have just as much authority.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not at all. You were directly shown the scriptures in the post you were quoting from that state Jesus is God. You just chose to ignore them. In post # 347 linked you were also directly told that the list you are trying to respond to (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1) in the linked post was a list that included both a list of scripture that say (1) Jesus in God and (2) that Jesus was creator and (3) in the beginning with God. That list was never a list of scripture directly stating Jesus was God. So why pretend that was what I was saying? I posted out the scriptures in full in the same linked post stating that Jesus was God from the gospel writers and the Apostles. You just chose to conveniently ignore them.

You were shown in post # 347 linked the scripture referring to Jesus as God by the writers of the Gospels and Apostles, and post # 349 linked you were shown your claims to one God and Jesus not being God was in error. You just simply ignored both of those post. I wonder why? Not a single scripture you provided in your posts disagree with anything shared with you. If you believe that is not true let's discuss it. However I do not think our discussion will go to far if your going to continue to ignore the content of my posts shared with you and pretend that there is no scripture in the bible calling Jesus God by the gospel writers and the Apostles. That would be simply a lie.

Here let me post them again and give me your response....

As posted earlier, the scripture provided to you (the list of all scriptures) dear friend were direct quotes stating that (1) not only did Jesus pre-exist creation but that (2) Jesus was the God of creation. Did you read them Here lets look at a few I do not think you read them..
  • JOHN 1:1-4; 14 1, 1, IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND THE WORD WAS GOD. 2, THE SAME WAS IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. 3, ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. 4, In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [14], AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, AND WE BEHELD HIS GLORY, THE GLORY AS OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.
John makes it very clear what he is talking about here...
  • 1 JOHN 5:20 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son JESUS CHRIST HE IS THE TRUE GOD AND ETERNAL LIFE.
The Apostles Thomas also believed Jesus was God here...
  • JOHN 20:28 28 Thomas answered him, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!
As does Paul quoting God here...
  • HEBREWS 1:8 But UNTO THE SON HE SAYS, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, WILL LAST FOR EVER AND EVER; A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE WILL BE THE SCEPTER OF YOUR KINGDOM.
Peter knew Jesus was God and states so here...
  • 2 PETER 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of OUR GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST
Paul shows his belief that Jesus is God here...
  • TITUS 2:1313 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST
The Jews continued to seek to kill Jesus because he they claimed Jesus was claiming himself to be God here...
  • JOHN 10:30-33 30 I and the father are one. 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, BECAUSE YOU, BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF GOD.”
The Angel even calls Jesus God here..
  • LUKE 1:35 “The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and HE WILL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD
So yes you were provided scripture evidence showing that the gospel writers and the Apostles believed Jesus was God. Stating anything otherwise is simply being dishonest but I prefer to believe you were not being dishonest but perhaps you simply did not read the scripture evidence shared with you and did not know.

Agreed it is a waste of time if your not going to respond to my posts and scriptures shared with you and try and build and tare down paper dragons no one is talking about. You were told in post # 347 linked already that that the this list (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1) was a list of scriptures showing that Jesus was from the beginning with God and the God of creation testified by the gospel writers and Apostles. You were also shown in post # 347 linked the scriptures by the gospel writers and the Apostles testifying that Jesus is God. You were not told that every scripture in that list was a reference to Jesus being God. I posted those out in full and you ignored then in the very post you were responding to. While in post # 349 linked you were shown that any claim that there was only "one" God singular is not supported in the scriptures. Once again you choose to ignore these scriptures because they prove your interpretation of the scriptures is in error.
I patiently bogged through fifteen of your purported references to claims that Jesus is God, and they were all ─ not to mince words ─ rubbish.

I'll be kinder to you in reply. Let's start with one from Paul, in my earlier post ─

Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Explain to me how that quote nonetheless claims Jesus is God. (Don't allude to other quotes.)

Or if you agree that it says Jesus is distinct from God, is not God, just say you agree.

Then we can move on to my next example.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Please forgive my but I do not believe you. Take Care.
Actually I do not believe you. I think the reason that you run away from debate is because you know that I can support my claims and all you have is the Bible

I used to be a Christian. But I believed that God was not a liar, so I could not believe the myths of Genesis and Exodus. The still worked when it came to the verse:

"16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, "

Even if not literally true those verses still can be used for "teaching, rebuking . . . "

By the way, most Christians do not understand that verse. I am betting that you do not understand it either.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I patiently bogged through fifteen of your purported references to claims that Jesus is God, and they were all ─ not to mince words ─ rubbish. Explain to me how that quote nonetheless claims Jesus is God. (Don't allude to other quotes.)
No you didn't. Sorry but that is not true at all. You were directly shown the scriptures in the post you were quoting from that you ignored and refused to discuss that directly stated Jesus is God. In post # 347 linked you were also directly told that the list you are trying to respond to (e.g John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1) from the linked post was a list that included scripture that says (1) Jesus in God and (2) that Jesus was creator and (3) in the beginning with God. That list was never a list of scripture directly stating Jesus was God. So why pretend that was what I was saying? I posted out the scriptures in full in the same linked post that stated that verbatim that Jesus was God from the gospel writers and the Apostles. You just chose to conveniently ignore these scriptures and not respond to them as if they did not exist.
I'll be kinder to you in reply. Let's start with one from Paul, in my earlier post ─ Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Well blu, that is nice of you I am only wanting to have friendly discussion here and discuss post content in detail. I do not expect we will agree on everything but that is ok we can still agree to disagree and remain friendly. Now I did not post this scripture but happy to discuss it as it only agrees with what I have been sharing with you from post # 349 linked. That is that when the term "one" is used it does not always mean "one" (singular) but can have plural application as shown in the creation account meaning unification or being one in mind and purpose or being united (details and examples already provided in post post # 349 linked. I am still waiting for you to respond to this post. You simply ignored it in favor of building paper dragons to tear down.

How about we do this I will respond to you post here in detail. Then you respond to post # 356 linked that posts out the scriptures in full stating Jesus is God from the gospel writers, and the Apostles (from post # 347 linked) and also respond to post # 349 linked that shows that being one can also mean plural and not only singular application? I think that is only fair as I spent quite a bit of time in these posts for our discussion and to simply have them ignored I do not think is fair. Afterwards I will be happy to move forward with you with any scripture you want to discuss with me. Is that a fair deal? Alright even though all of this is off topic to the OP discussion I will address your scripture here in good faith and hope you might do likewise with my linked posts to you.

I will be using other supporting scripture references because you cannot take scripture out of context to what is being discussed and out of context to the rest of the scriptures from the bible. However, I will be doing this for very good reason. Firstly, I have already shown the plurality of "one God" from Deuteronomy 6:4 in the Hebrew word used here is אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) and has application to the plurality of God (scripture examples provided at the creation account and elsewhere; in Deuteronomy 6:4; Genesis 2:24; Genesis 11:6; Genesis 34:15; Exodus 12:49; Exodus 24:3; Judges 20:8; John 10:30; Matthew 28:19; 1 John 5:7; see post # 349 for how these scriptures were used) and I want to show what Paul is referring to from the old testament word meanings and scriptures origins in the new for 1 Corinthians 8:6 and show how the terms used by Paul as "one" God the father creator of all things and Jesus as Lord is referring to Jesus as Lord God of the old testament also God of creation. Lets see how in the next post...
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
PLURAL APPLICATION OF GOD TO 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6

I will be comparing 1 Corinthians 8:6 to the Hebrew to which Paul is referring to in Deuteronomy 6:4. The reason for first quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 is to show where the Greek words θεός (theós|G2316) translated as God and κύριος (kýrios|G2962) translated as Lord come from and their application to "one God" and their duel application in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and it's application to one God with the Greek from Hebrew translation of Lord. Lets start by looking at the scriptures..
  • DEUTERONOMY 6:4 4, Hear, O Israel: THE LORD OUR GOD is ONE GOD
  • 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6 6, But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one LORD JESUS CHRIST by whom are all things, and we by him.
WORD MEANING ORIGINS FROM HEBREW TO GREEK TO ENGLISH

1. Lord translated from Greek to English in 1 Corinthians 8:6 comes from the Hebrew word יְהֹוָה (Yᵉhôvâh | YHWH; yeh-ho-vaw' H3068)
2. Lord is in context is referring to God in the Hebrew is אֱלֹהִים (ʼĕlôhîym|Adonai Elohim H430) and this is where the Greek word from Hebrew translates as God θεός (theós|G2316) in 1 Corinthians 8:6
3. One coming from the Hebrew word אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) translated in the Greek as εἷς (heîs|hice G1520) also having plural application like echad.

So when reading the Hebrew Scriptures it would be vocalized as Adonai, the word for Lord God. Because of that, our English translations use an all-uppercase LORD in place of the name YWHW or Jehovah. The word translated as God in this verse is elohim. This is somewhat of a generic word for God. And it is used also to refer to the gods of the nations as well as the God of Israel. In the Greek Septuagint, the Bible of the early church, YHWH, is translated as kyrois. This is a word that means Lord and is synonymous with the Hebrew Adonai. And elohim is translated as theos, the generic Greek word for God. So in Hebrew, the expression ‘YHWH Elohim’ is pronounced as ‘Adonai Elohim’. In Greek, it is ‘Kyrois Theos’. And in English, it is ‘LORD God’. These are the words being used in the Greek scripture in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT

1 CORINTHIANS 8:1-7 1, Now as touching things offered to IDOLS, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies. 2, And if any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3, But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4, As concerning therefore the EATING OF THOSE THING OFFERED AND SACRIFICED TO IDOLS WE KNOW THAT AN IDOL IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD AND THAT THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE. 5, FOR THOUGH THERE BE THAT ARE CALLED GODS WHETHER IN HEAVEN OR EARTH AS THERE BE GOD'S MANY AND LORDS MANY 6, BUT TO US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE IN HIM; AND (parallel)' AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE BY HIM. 7, However, there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol to this hour eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

FROM THE SCRIPTURES

NOTE
: The context to the Corinthians believers is that of food offered to idols and that idols are nothing but false Gods and Lords that are many. While 1 Corinthians 8:6 is saying BUT TO US... that is Christian there is only one (εἷς (heîs|hice G1520 from the Hebrew ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259 also meaning singular or plural unified) God, the father of who are all things and one Lord Jesus Christ who are all things and we by him.

1. 1 Corinthians 8:6 tells us that the father is God creator of all things
2. One God, beside having singular application also has plural application one in unification as used in other Hebrew and Greek scriptures
3. The application of Lord is to God applied to Jesus who is also creator of all things

So what do we see we see the application of one God with singular and plural meaning to God the father as creator of all things and to Jesus as Lord God as creator of all things in parallel application with God the father. Paul is saying that the Father is God (plural) and creator and that Jesus is Lord God (YHWH, Jehovah) the God of the old testament scriptures and also creator!

This further agrees with the creation account of the scriptures here...

ONE GOD OR ONE IN UNIFICATION?
Compare with these scriptures here (there are more but we can use these as examples)...
  • GENESIS 2:24 24, Therefore shall a MAN leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and THEY SHALL BE ONE FLESH.
  • GENESIS 11:6 And the LORD said, BEHOLD, THE PEOPLE IS ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
  • GENESIS 34:15 16, Then will we give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and WE WILL BECOME ONE PEOPLE.
  • EXODUS 12:49 49, ONE LAW shall be to him that is home born, and to the stranger that sojournes among you.
  • EXODUS 24:3… all the people answered with ONE VOICE
Are in harmony with...
  • MATTHEW 28:19 9, Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST
  • 1 JOHN 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
NOTE: the one thing that all these scriptures have in common is that the context and the Hebrew show a plural application and meaning to the English word translated as one (singular). The Hebrew word used here for "one" here is אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) which is a derivation: a numeral from אָחַד; its meaning is properly, united, i.e. as one; or (as an ordinal) first
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-) ly, each (one), [phrase] eleven, every, few, first, [phrase] highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

So beside having a meaning of one (singular) like the English definition, unlike English it can also be used in plural application depending on the scripture contexts.

Now plural application to the Hebrew word one has been proven. Let's look at the Genesis account of creation and God's Words as they are written in creation and see how these are also are not supportive of one singular God but God as plural unified application like the examples provided from the scriptures above...

1 CORINTHIANS 6:8 ONE GOD (plural) AT CREATION GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS AS CREATORS?

God reveals himself throughout scripture as one in unification as shown in the scriptures above and also in the creation account and in other scriptures here...
  • GENESIS 1:26 26 And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
  • GENESIS 3:22 “Then the Lord God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”
  • Genesis 11:7 “COME, LET US GO DOWN AND CONFUSE THEIR LANGUAGE so they will not understand each other
  • Isaiah 6:8 “Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and WHO WILL GO FOR US?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
NOTE: You will note above that "let us, "our image" or "our likeness" or "one of us" or "for us" is first person plural application in the Hebrew words use here. It is not a singular application to God in any references provided from the Torah. So the collective scripture as well as word meaning, context and use here is that when the term one is used it does not always mean singular application but can also mean plural application based on the scripture contexts. The scripture context provided in this post prove that the term "one God" is an application to a plural God that are unified and as "one people" as "one flesh" as highlighted in the scriptures in the previous section while the God of creation is is also plural application to "us or our".

This shows why your interpretation of the scriptures you provided earlier to a singular God is in error and also shows how the scriptures you provided in your last post are harmonized and do not contradict each other. In 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul ascribed to Jesus the personal name of God (YHWH, Jehovah) that is used in the Old Testament. This is also testified to by Jesus himself when he says to the Jews that before Abraham was I AM (see John 8:58 from Exodus 3:14). The name I AM is a reference to the God of the old testament from the burning bush and a name of the God of Israel.

In Paul's address in 1 Corinthians 8:6 the first is God the Father and the second is the Lord Jesus Christ. But when you look at the Greek, a language he was very familiar with, and the language spoken by the Corinthians, you find something else. The Shema affirms there is one YHWH Elohim (Deuteronomy 6:4). Paul says there is one Theos (the Greek translation of Elohim), the Father. And there is one Kyrois (the Greek translation of Adoni, the word spoken in place of YHWH the God of the old testament) in Jesus Christ.

The LORD God of the Shema becomes God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Not two distinct entities. But together, the LORD God. Over and over in Paul’s writings, he refers to the Lord Jesus Christ. And each time he does, he is affirming the divinity of Jesus. That he is connected with the YHWH of the Old Testament.

There can be little doubt that Paul viewed Jesus, the Son, as closely connected with God, the Father. That they were not two distinct individuals said to be the creators of the heavens and the earth and all mankind but that together, they were the one God unified in creation of heaven and earth as shown in Genesis 1:26 and elsewhere in the old testament and new testament scriptures. This is why Jesus also ways in John 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

Take Care.
 
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3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Actually I do not believe you. I think the reason that you run away from debate is because you know that I can support my claims and all you have is the Bible I used to be a Christian. But I believed that God was not a liar, so I could not believe the myths of Genesis and Exodus. The still worked when it came to the verse: "16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, " Even if not literally true those verses still can be used for "teaching, rebuking . . . " By the way, most Christians do not understand that verse. I am betting that you do not understand it either.
Sorry I do not believe you. I am still here debating scripture. I do not believe you have been able to support a single claim in our discussion and when pushed with evidence against you then you seek to make the discussion personal.

That is not what a discussion or debate is about. A debate and discussion is about addressing the other persons post content and showing why you agree or disagree with evidence to support your belief. Now I know we will not agree on everything and that is ok with me. I think we can still be friendly in a discussion even if we might not agree on something.

I tell you what, I will continue to engage with you in a friendly manner if you agree to do the same. Lets be honest if we do not have the answers to the posts shared with you its ok. Lets keep it friendly ok? What do you say? Want to start over with a friendly discussion?
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How about we do this I will respond to you post here in detail.
No, I've responded to fifteen of yours in detail, so grateful if you respond to my one (at this stage) with directness and clarity. We can then have a look at what next.

Here's that text again:

Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
No, I've responded to fifteen of yours in detail, so grateful if you respond to my one (at this stage) with directness and clarity. We can then have a look at what next.

Here's that text again:

Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

No you haven't you built a paper dragon to tear down making claims to things I never made. Your post here in regards to 1 Corinthians 8:6 was answered in good faith in the last two posts I have made. If you are unable to address my post content just be honest and say so. Or in good faith address my posts in detail as I do yours showing why you agree of disagree. If you cannot address the posts just say so. Show some common courtesy. If you want me to address your posts in detail at least you can do the same as well.
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
PLURAL APPLICATION OF GOD TO 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6

I will be comparing 1 Corinthians 8:6 to the Hebrew to which Paul is referring to in Deuteronomy 6:4. The reason for first quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 is to show where the Greek words θεός (theós|G2316) translated as God and κύριος (kýrios|G2962) translated as Lord come from and their application to "one God" and their duel application in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and it's application to one God with the Greek from Hebrew translation of Lord. Lets start by looking at the scriptures..
  • DEUTERONOMY 6:4 4, Hear, O Israel: THE LORD OUR GOD is ONE GOD
  • 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6 6, But to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one LORD JESUS CHRIST by whom are all things, and we by him.
WORD MEANING ORIGINS FROM HEBREW TO GREEK TO ENGLISH

1. Lord translated from Greek to English in 1 Corinthians 8:6 comes from the Hebrew word יְהֹוָה (Yᵉhôvâh | YHWH; yeh-ho-vaw' H3068)
2. Lord is in context is referring to God in the Hebrew is אֱלֹהִים (ʼĕlôhîym|Adonai Elohim H430) and this is where the Greek word from Hebrew translates as God θεός (theós|G2316) in 1 Corinthians 8:6
3. One coming from the Hebrew word אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) translated in the Greek as εἷς (heîs|hice G1520) also having plural application like echad.

So when reading the Hebrew Scriptures it would be vocalized as Adonai, the word for Lord God. Because of that, our English translations use an all-uppercase LORD in place of the name YWHW or Jehovah. The word translated as God in this verse is elohim. This is somewhat of a generic word for God. And it is used also to refer to the gods of the nations as well as the God of Israel. In the Greek Septuagint, the Bible of the early church, YHWH, is translated as kyrois. This is a word that means Lord and is synonymous with the Hebrew Adonai. And elohim is translated as theos, the generic Greek word for God. So in Hebrew, the expression ‘YHWH Elohim’ is pronounced as ‘Adonai Elohim’. In Greek, it is ‘Kyrois Theos’. And in English, it is ‘LORD God’. These are the words being used in the Greek scripture in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

CONTEXT IS IMPORTANT

1 CORINTHIANS 8:1-7 1, Now as touching things offered to IDOLS, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies. 2, And if any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3, But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4, As concerning therefore the EATING OF THOSE THING OFFERED AND SACRIFICED TO IDOLS WE KNOW THAT AN IDOL IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD AND THAT THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE. 5, FOR THOUGH THERE BE THAT ARE CALLED GODS WHETHER IN HEAVEN OR EARTH AS THERE BE GOD'S MANY AND LORDS MANY 6, BUT TO US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE IN HIM; AND (parallel)' AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE BY HIM. 7, However, there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol to this hour eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

FROM THE SCRIPTURES

NOTE
: The context to the Corinthians believers is that of food offered to idols and that idols are nothing but false Gods and Lords that are many. While 1 Corinthians 8:6 is saying BUT TO US... that is Christian there is only one (εἷς (heîs|hice G1520 from the Hebrew ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259 also meaning singular or plural unified) God, the father of who are all things and one Lord Jesus Christ who are all things and we by him.

1. 1 Corinthians 8:6 tells us that the father is God creator of all things
2. One God, beside having singular application also has plural application one in unification as used in other Hebrew and Greek scriptures
3. The application of Lord is to God applied to Jesus who is also creator of all things

So what do we see we see the application of one God with singular and plural meaning to God the father as creator of all things and to Jesus as Lord God as creator of all things in parallel application with God the father. Paul is saying that the Father is God (plural) and creator and that Jesus is Lord God (YHWH, Jehovah) the God of the old testament scriptures and also creator!

This further agrees with the creation account of the scriptures here...

ONE GOD OR ONE IN UNIFICATION?
Compare with these scriptures here (there are more but we can use these as examples)...
  • GENESIS 2:24 24, Therefore shall a MAN leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and THEY SHALL BE ONE FLESH.
  • GENESIS 11:6 And the LORD said, BEHOLD, THE PEOPLE IS ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
  • GENESIS 34:15 16, Then will we give our daughters to you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and WE WILL BECOME ONE PEOPLE.
  • EXODUS 12:49 49, ONE LAW shall be to him that is home born, and to the stranger that sojournes among you.
  • EXODUS 24:3… all the people answered with ONE VOICE
Are in harmony with...
  • MATTHEW 28:19 9, Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATIONS, BAPTIZING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST
  • 1 JOHN 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
NOTE: the one thing that all these scriptures have in common is that the context and the Hebrew show a plural application and meaning to the English word translated as one (singular). The Hebrew word used here for "one" here is אֶחָד (ʼechâd | ekh-awd' - H259) which is a derivation: a numeral from אָחַד; its meaning is properly, united, i.e. as one; or (as an ordinal) first
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-) ly, each (one), [phrase] eleven, every, few, first, [phrase] highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
So beside having a meaning of one (singular) like the English definition, unlike English it can also be used in plural application depending on the scripture contexts.

Now plural application to the Hebrew word one has been proven. Let's look at the Genesis account of creation and God's Words as they are written in creation and see how these are also are not supportive of one singular God but God as plural unified application like the examples provided from the scriptures above...

1 CORINTHIANS 6:8 ONE GOD (plural) AT CREATION GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS AS CREATORS?

God reveals himself throughout scripture as one in unification as shown in the scriptures above and also in the creation account and in other scriptures here...
  • GENESIS 1:26 26 And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
  • GENESIS 3:22 “Then the Lord God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and also take from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”
  • Genesis 11:7 “COME, LET US GO DOWN AND CONFUSE THEIR LANGUAGE so they will not understand each other
  • Isaiah 6:8 “Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and WHO WILL GO FOR US?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
NOTE: You will note above that "let us, "our image" or "our likeness" or "one of us" or "for us" is first person plural application in the Hebrew words use here. It is not a singular application to God in any references provided from the Torah. So the collective scripture as well as word meaning, context and use here is that when the term one is used it does not always mean singular application but can also mean plural application based on the scripture contexts. The scripture context provided in this post prove that the term "one God" is an application to a plural God that are unified and as "one people" as "one flesh" as highlighted in the scriptures in the previous section while the God of creation is is also plural application to "us or our". This shows why your interpretation of the scriptures you provided earlier to a singular God is in error and also shows how the scriptures you provided in your last post are harmonized and do not contradict each other….
In 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul ascribed to Jesus the personal name of God (YHWH, Jehovah) that is used in the Old Testament. This is also testified to by Jesus himself when he says to the Jews that before Abraham was I AM (see John 8:58 from Exodus 3:14). The name I AM is a reference to the God of the old testament from the burning bush and a name of the God of Israel. The more generic name for God/gods is assigned to the Father. There can be little doubt that Paul viewed Jesus, the Son, as closely connected with God, the Father. That they were not two distinct individuals said to be the creators of the heavens and the earth and all mankind. But that together, they were the one God
3rdAngel, I’ve been reading your posts and am flabbergasted at your belief.

Everything you said here (as prior) as a summary is absolutely false.

Most is not even coherent but I know they came straight from the trinitarian book of shame.

You, yourself know that it is false since in order for you to write these fabrication you must have turned to the dark side. For instance, ‘LORD’ is ‘YHWH’. It in no way retranslated as ‘Lord’. Hence Corinthians 8:6 does not translate as you claim….

Therefore…. You know that you purposely misrepresented the verse which stated categorically that:
  • “THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD: the Father”
Jesus is referenced as ‘Lord’, which you know JUST MEANS someone who holds a highly prominent position within a contextual grouping. Consequently, “God” is greater than “Lord” and hence the next line:
  • “And [only] one Lord, Jesus Christ”
Moreover, if you are trinitarian, how does: ‘one God, and one Lord’ make a triune three-person even pagan unified one GOD?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
No, I've responded to fifteen of yours in detail, so grateful if you respond to my one (at this stage) with directness and clarity. We can then have a look at what next.

Here's that text again:

Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
The reason you get no response to your direct question is because 3rdAngel knows he cannot justify his claims. This is absolutely typical of Trinitarians I have encountered over years of debating with them.

It’s a learnt or copied trait to claim (a distraction towards the opponent) they won’t answer you because you didn’t answer some fictitious request at some unreferenced point earlier (Why not ask him to repost the question he claims you didn’t respond to…. Wait for the question - but don’t hold your breathe!!!)
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
3rdAngel, I’ve been reading your posts and am flabbergasted at your belief.

Everything you said here (as prior) as a summary is absolutely false.

Most is not even coherent but I know they came straight from the trinitarian book of shame.

You, yourself know that it is false since in order for you to write these fabrication you must have turned to the dark side. For instance, ‘LORD’ is ‘YHWH’. It in no way retranslated as ‘Lord’. Hence Corinthians 8:6 does not translate as you claim….

Therefore…. You know that you purposely misrepresented the verse which stated categorically that:
  • “THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD: the Father”
Jesus is referenced as ‘Lord’, which you know JUST MEANS someone who holds a highly prominent position within a contextual grouping. Consequently, “God” is greater than “Lord” and hence the next line:
  • “And [only] one Lord, Jesus Christ”
Moreover, if you are trinitarian, how does: ‘one God, and one Lord’ make a triune three-person even pagan unified one GOD?

Actually no everything came from the bible. Your welcome to address my posts in detail showing why you might disagree. Making blanket statements without evidence does not really cut it with me. Prove my posts wrong or move along. What you have said in this post only confirms you did not read or understand what was posted.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
The reason you get no response to your direct question is because 3rdAngel knows he cannot justify his claims. This is absolutely typical of Trinitarians I have encountered over years of debating with them.

It’s a learnt or copied trait to claim (a distraction towards the opponent) they won’t answer you because you didn’t answer some fictitious request at some unreferenced point earlier (Why not ask him to repost the question he claims you didn’t respond to…. Wait for the question - but don’t hold your breathe!!!)
Because I can read. It is your claims that are fictitious if you cannot show why you disagree. I have posted scripture. If you disagree address the post content showing why you disagree.
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Actually no everything came from the bible. Your welcome to address my posts in detail showing why you might disagree. Making blanket statements without evidence does not really cut it with me. Prove my posts wrong or move along. What you have said in this post only confirms you did not read or understand what was posted.
‘Prove your posts are wrong!!’

3rdAngel, almost EVERYTHING your post claims IS WRONG…. Proving your posts as wrong will take more pages than there are in the Bible… and that’s why you say, ‘Prove my posts are wrong!!’
 
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