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Featured "THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 19, 2022.

  1. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    But wasn't it always a law, one of the ten commandments, in fact?
    I think it was changed during the period the Christians were distancing themselves from the Jews and establishing their sect as a separate religion.. Keeping the original Shabbat was considered "Judaizing."
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Jay, you too nice to meet you and thanks for the discussion.
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hey Kenny, nice to meet you. Where do you think in Colossians 2:16-17 does it say that Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? - It doesn't. Also this scripture does not have anything to do with "the Lords day". I have met many people over the year trying to use these scriptures as proof texts out of their context to try to argue that the Sabbath has been abolished but if you look at the withing scripture and chapter contexts and context to what Paul is quoting from in the old testament scriptures it does not say what many people think it does. Colossians 2:16-17 is a reference to the ceremonial sabbaths (plural) in the annual Feast days and the meat and drink offerings and not not let others judge you in this regard...

    Kenny, did you know that there were many ceremonial sabbaths connected to the annual Feast days that are not the same as Gods' 4th commandment, seventh day Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandments?

    Here lets look at the detail...

    The scriptures say
    • Colossians 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day (Feast day), or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (plural): [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. [KJV]
    If you prayerfully look at this topic in detail and not surface read the scripture and separate it from context like many do, you will find Colossians 2:16 is not a reference to Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments but is a reference to the ceremonial "sabbaths" plural in the annual Feast days connected to the meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifices that are shadow of things to come pointing to Jesus.

    Paul here is actually quoting old testament scriptures in regards to the annual Feast days and ceremonial laws and sabbaths that were connected to these Feast days. I will show you examples of these shortly but let me ask, did you know that there was many different kinds of sabbaths (plural) in the Old Testament?

    For example the annual Feast days included annual ceremonial sabbaths (plural) that unlike Gods' 4th commandment that is every "seventh day" *Exodus 20:10 on a continuous weekly cycle, the annual sabbaths in the Feast days could fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle and were connected directly to the meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifices and sin offerings pointing to Jesus. All these shadow laws of remission of sins including the meat and drink offerings the new moons and the annual sabbaths (plural) in he annual Feast days for example included;
    It is all these sabbaths (plural) that were connected to the old covenant earthly Sanctuary that were all shadows of things to come pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and Savoir of the world.

    It is impossible that Colossians 2:16 to be talking about Gods' 4th commandment for God's 4th commandment has never pointed forward to things to come but points backwards to the finished work of creation *see Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. Gods' 4th commandment was also made before sin and before law when mankind was sinless and there was no need for a gospel pointing to Jesus because there was no sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind (see Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3) only Adam and Eve created. Gods' 4th commandment points backwards to the finished work of creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) not forward to things to come so cannot be a "shadow law" of anything.

    to be continued...
     
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  4. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    This has always been a key question for me -- which is more important? WHEN you rest or THAT you rest?

    It's even more important in a crowded world. I live in a city of millions, and if all of them have to have the same day off, we wind up with empty parks and recreational facilities for most of the week, and not enough space for anybody to even sit down on the one day they all try to use those spaces. That's nuts!
     
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  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Paul in Colossians 2:16 is actually quoting old testament scriptures..
    • Colossians 2:16 [16], Let no man therefore judge you in (1) meat, or in drink, or in respect of an (2) holy day (Feast day), or of the (3) new moon, or of the (4) sabbath days (plural): [17], Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. [KJV]
    from..
    • Ezekiel 45:17-21, It shall be the prince’s duty to furnish the burnt offerings, (1) meat offering and drink offerings, at the (2) feasts, the (3) new moons, and the (4) sabbaths, at all the appointed (5) feasts of the house of israel: He shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. Thus says the Lord God; in the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary: and the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. and so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erred, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. in the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
    • 1 Chronicles 23:31 and whenever (1) burnt offerings were presented to the LORD on the (4) sabbaths, at the (3) New Moon (2) feasts and at the appointed festivals. They were to serve before the LORD regularly in the proper number and in the way prescribed for them.
    • 2 Chronicles 2:4 [4] Now I am about to build a temple for the Name of the LORD my God and to dedicate it to him for burning fragrant incense before him, for setting out the consecrated bread regularly, and for making (1) burnt offerings every morning and evening and on the (4) sabbaths, at the (3) New Moons and at the appointed (2) festivals of the LORD our God. This is a lasting ordinance for Israel.
    • Numbers 28:8-10 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.
    • Isaiah 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, THE CALLING OF ASSEMBLIES, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
    • Hosea 2:11 [11], I will stop her celebrations: her (2) yearly festivals, her (3) New Moons, her (4) sabbaths and all her (2) appointed festivals.
    KEY POINTS TAKEN FROM THE SCRIPTURE
    So what you can see here is that Paul is directly quoting old testament scriptures from Colossians 2:16 that are referring to the annual ceremonial sabbaths connected to the Old testament Sanctuary and meat and drink offerings and animal sacrifices and old covenant laws for remission of sins linked to the annual Feast days not Gods' 4th commandment which was Paul's custom in keeping according to the scriptures (Acts of the Apostles 17:2).

    Application to other new covenant scriptures
    • Hebrews 9:1; 9-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
    • HEBREWS 10:1-9
      [1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
      [2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
      [3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
      [4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
      [5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
      [6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
      [7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
      [8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
      [9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
    All the above new covenant scriptures link in with Colossians 2:16, the meat and drink offerings, and the sabbaths in the annual Feast days and the earthly Sanctuary and its laws for remission of sins. Colossians 2:16 is not telling us that Gods' 4th commandment is abolished.

    to be continued....
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    SUNDAY KEEPING COMMENTARIES ON COLOSSIANS 2:16

    I am not one for commentaries but for what it is worth these Sunday keeping scholars are all in agreement here in regards to Colossians 2:16 and what has been shared with you here.

    Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

    “... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

    Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:

    There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

    Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states:
    “... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary.

    Does the above make sense to you?

    God bless
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Okay so this is based upon the Ten Commandments in the Bible. Are we talking about the Ten Commandments in the Bible, carved in stone and called within the Bible itself the "Ten Commandments"?
     
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  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hey nice to meet you. For me Gods 4th commandment is and the creation account is very specific....
    • Genesis 2:1-3 says 1, Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2, And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3, And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
    From the 4th commandment of the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11)
    • Exodus 20:10 BUT THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD YOUR GOD
    For me the scriptures are very clear that it is a specific day that God blessed and set apart from all the other days of the week and made a holy day of rest as a memorial of creation that we are to rest on. Also do a study on Saturday in most countries around the world it is the Sabbath day. Also, the Jews have been keeping it unbroken now for nearly 4000 years.

    God bless
     
    #28 3rdAngel, Nov 19, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2022
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hey nice to see you SZ. Yep see Exodus 20:3-17 (10 commandments) in particular Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath written in Exodus 20:8-11
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    But those are not the Ten Commandments by the standards I just gave.
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yes they are the same 10 commandments that God alone spoke and wrote with His own finger. According to the new covenant scriptures, Gods 10 commandments give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing when obeyed) and evil (moral wrong doing when disobeyed), sin (moral wrong when disobeyed) and righteousness (moral right doing when obeyed) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 Psalms 119:172 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *see James 2:10-11. They are Gods' standard of good and evil in the judgement (2 Corinthians 5:10) and Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath is one of them (see Exodus 20:3-17; in particular Exodus 20:8-11).
     
  12. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    But that does not deal with the problem that those do not appear to be the "Ten Commandments". They do not fit the qualifications that I gave to you and you agreed with.
     
  13. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Well, yes, but you see, as an atheist, I accept fully that all scripture is the creation of humans, and therefore contain no more than human wisdom.

    Further, I think that actually observing the world and its inhabitants as they exist today suggests that the human wisdom that created scripture was very limited, and far too often wrong -- and in some cases (as with "special days for special purposes") nonsensical.
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    There is no problem your ignoring scripture context (see Exodus 34:1) Sorry I do not know what your talking about. Exodus 20:3-17 are God's 10 commandments spoken by God and written with Gods' own finger. God google it if your not sure (e.g see Wiki here).
     
    #34 3rdAngel, Nov 19, 2022
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  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Please forgive me but I do not believe you. I was once an atheist until God proved me wrong. Thanks for sharing your view though. We will agree to disagree.
     
    #35 3rdAngel, Nov 19, 2022
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  16. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
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    Nice to meet you too. Yes, there are many ceremonial Sabbaths, even High Sabbaths as there are years of Sabbath (every 7th year) and the year of Jubilee.

    Did you know that the tribe of Levi actually worked on the Sabbath?

    But, as Jesus said,
    PHILLIPS Mark 2;27Then he spoke to them. “Have you never read what David did, when he and his companions were hungry? Haven’t you read how he went into the house of God when Abiathar was High Priest, and ate the presentation loaves, which nobody is allowed to eat, except the priests—and gave some of the bread to his companions? The Sabbath,” he continued, “was made for man’s sake; man was not made for the sake of the Sabbath. That is why the Son of Man is master even of the Sabbath.”

    So I believe there is more to it than just a cursory look at the Jewish Sabbath and the commandment.

    I remember a scripture in Hebrews which stated Heb 4:9 So then, there is still awaiting a full and complete Sabbath-rest reserved for the [true] people of God; which. speaks of a greater Sabbath and how we strive to enter into that rest even as God rested on His seventh day.

    I guess an additional question is whether the "Lord's day" is the same as the Sabbath. Is the Lord's day the day of resurrection? Are there more that one "Lord's day" as in the coming of the Lord? Are there different applications of faith as in Romans 14:5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind?

    So do people end up debating over things that aren't a Heaven/Hell issue? Or maybe what is more important is "love"?

    What is do find is, for example Acts 20:7 And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled together to break bread [the Lord’s Supper], Paul discoursed with them, intending to leave the next morning; and he kept on with his message until midnight.

    This is an interesting scripture. Why on the first day of the week to assemble ? Is there significance here?

    Ultimately, for me, Sunday is my day of work and Monday is my day of rest.
     
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  17. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Well, I'm sad to say that this "God" hasn't seen fit to prove anything at all to me -- including, of course, his existence. I'm sure I would be fascinated by your "proof," but I rather strongly suspect we would still be agreeing to disagree.

    Still, if you'd care to share your "proof," I'll be happy to read it.
     
  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Most people forget that in the myth Moses broke the first set of tablets and apparently tried to do it from memory. He went back up and God carved him a new set. These are the only Ten Commandments called that within the Bible. The headings that one gets to chapters etc. were not original. When God made a second set for Moses the Commandments were not the same.

    Read Exodus 34.
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yes Kenny the Levites were a tribe of Priests ministering to the people and doing God's Work. The same story is also told in Matthew 12:1-12 where Jesus says that because they are doing Gods' work and doing good on the Sabbath they are held blameless before God and that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day.
    As posted earlier to someone else. There is no such thing as a Jewish Sabbath. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Hebrews, no Israel when Jesus says God made the Sabbath for all mankind (Genesis 2:1-3 compare Mark 2:27).
    Actually Hebrews 4 says that the Sabbath is left behind for the people of God to enter into by faith. His rest, My rest, Gods rest is defined in the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 as the seventh day Sabbath created from the foundation of the world. The scriptures in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 no where talks about a greater Sabbath. Hebrews 4:9 in the Aramaic is translated "therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath". We keep the Sabbath by resting on the "seventh day" of the week as God rested from His works of creation.
    Scripture shows that "the Lords day" is a reference to the Sabbath day (Matthew 12:8 see also rest of the OP). There is no scripture in the entire bible that teaches that "the Lords day" is a reference to Sunday. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that is unsupported by the scriptures.
    This topic is a heaven and hell issue. Sin is the transgression of the law (see 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and according to James if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin (see James 2:10-11). Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken. There is not a single scripture in all of Gods' Word that says Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments have been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God against the very warnings of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 if we continue in known unrepentant sin after we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word we will not enter into Gods' kingdom.
    Of course love in important Kenny. According to the scriptures God is love. God tells us the truth through His Word because he loves us. God does not lie to us when he tells us that if we do not repent of our sins we will all likewise perish in our sins. God tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Gods' 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and it is Jesus that says to us if you love me keep my commandments. Love therefore does not disobey what Gods' Word says. Love believes and obeys what Gods' Word says. Gods 4th commandment says to remember the Sabbath day (not Sunday) to keep it holy in six says you shall do all your labor and work but the SEVENTH DAY is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.... (Exodus 20:8-11).
    According to the scriptures, Gods' people met every day of the week breaking bread in Acts 2:46-47. This of course does not make everyday a holy day now does it? If you look at Acts 20:7 you will read the reason why the early Church was meeting together with Paul. They were meeting together because Paul was leaving them. They were having a going away meal together. Read the chapter context here....
    • Acts 20:6-13 6, And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. 7, And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.. 8, And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. 9, And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. 10, And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. 11, When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. 12, And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.13, And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.
    So as shown in the scripture contexts the disciples were meeting together on the first day of the week to fare well Paul why was leaving them the next day.

    Hope this helps
     
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Actually no. Exodus 34 only agrees with what has already been shared with you here. If you read the scripture context in Exodus 34:1 You will see God is asking Moses to cut out two more stone tablets that he broke earlier coming down the mountain when he saw the children of Israel dancing around the golden calf idol. God says that he will write on them again. Exodus 32:16 tells us that the writing of the 10 commandments on the tables of stone were the work of God and the writing was the writing of God with Gods' own finger.

    Hope this helps.
     
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