"THE LORD'S DAY IS THE SABBATH DAY NOT SUNDAY ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ As highlighted in the last post. You hold a view of someone that does not know God trying to talk to someone that does know God. As explained earlier it is like me taking a bite of an apple and asking you what does my apple taste like. You can never know it because you do not know God. We can never know God or find God unless we first come to God by faith which is the condition to knowing God. *Jeremiah 29:13; Hebrews 11:6. Take a bite of the apple what have you got to lose. There is many things we cannot see in life but we know are there one way or another (wind, electricity, sound waves, emotions etc). Just because we cannot see something does not mean it is not real.

Your response here...

We are agreed, then, that God does not exist external to the individual mind.

Where did I ever say or suggest such a thing? - I didn't and no we do not agree here. Of course God is external to the individual mind.

3rdAngel said: ↑I think you missed the point of my last post while ignoring the definition of scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16 and that is πᾶς γραφή θεόπνευστος which you ignored states that all scripture or the definition of scripture is that it is God breathed or inspired by God. 2 Timothy 3:16 here is simply a definition of what scripture is. Scripture is defined as being God's words for mankind inspired by God. As posted earlier this was in the minds of the Apostles and the NT authors. John calls Jesus God in John 1:1-4; 14 as does Paul and the other Apostles fitting the bibles definition of scripture. Therefore all the NT is God's inspired Words that have their origin from the old testament scriptures and their fulfillment in the NT scriptures. This definition makes all the words of Jesus and the Apostles in the NT scripture according to 2 Timothy 3:16.

Your response here...

I don't think I missed the point. I think you missed the point, in failing to provide the test, necessarily objective, that will tell the reader whether what she or he is reading is god-inspired or not. Without such a test, "God-inspired" is just an opinion, not a factual state of affairs.

If you did not miss the point you simply ignored what was posted to you from the Greek and also the objective examples provided of the Apostles and gospel writers view of Jesus as God where scripture comes from as evidence to the NT writings as being scripture. 2 Timothy is simply a definition of what scripture is which includes both the old and new testament.

 

[blü 2]

Where did I ever say or suggest such a thing? - I didn't and no we do not agree here. Of course God is external to the individual mind.

Then God exists in objective reality and you can show [him] to me, or at the least give that necessary and sufficient description that will enable us to determine whether any real suspect is God or not.

If you can't do that then the only place God is known to exist is in the individual mind, no? Never seen or heard elsewhere.

If you did not miss the point you simply ignored what was posted to you from the Greek and also the objective examples provided of the Apostles and gospel writers view of Jesus as God where scripture comes from as evidence to the NT writings as being scripture. 2 Timothy is simply a definition of what scripture is which includes both the old and new testament.

Your reply doesn't address the only thing that matters ─ what objective test will tell us whether any particular text is θεόπνευστος or not? Because without such a test, we're just talking about individual opinion, not fact, no?

 

[InChrist]

SUNDAY WORSHIP IS NOT THE LORD'S DAY

The term "the Lord's day" was used by some in the early Church as a reference to Sunday worship in celebration of the resurrection of Jesus. It comes from a scripture in the bible found in Revelation 1

• REVELATION 1:10 10, I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

The Greek words used for the day that JOHN was in the Spirit of is the for Lord's day are

• REVELATION 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' as ownership or belonging to ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfillment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23

The problem here however is that there is not a single scripture that references Sunday or the first day of the week (bible names for the days of the week) to being "the Lords day" in scripture.

According to the scripture "the Lords day" however can be referenced to "the Sabbath day" of Gods' 4th commandment found in Exodus 20:8-11.

Letting the scriptures answer this question

• WHAT DAY IS THE LORD'S DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES?

• MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY

This then promotes a bit of a dilemma for the Church as there is not a single scripture in all of the bible that days "the Lords day" from Revelation 1:10 is Sunday. Yet there is many scriptures referencing "the Lords day" or Gods' specific claims to ownership of any particular day to the Sabbath day that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for a memorial of creation (see Genesis 2:1-3) and made one of Gods' 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11).

God's "ownership" of the Sabbath day or "Lord's day is also repeated elsewhere as "MY" (ownership of the day as in the Greek used in REVELATION 1:10 κυριακη). Other scriptures in the bible pointing to "the Lords day" as being the Sabbath day...

• MATTHEW 12:8 FOR THE SON OF MAN IS LORD EVEN OF THE SABBATH DAY. (the Sabbath day is Lord's day)

• ISAIAH 58:13-14 [13], If you turn away your foot from the SABBATH, from doing your pleasure on MY HOLY DAY (God's claim to ownership of the Sabbath day); and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honorable; and shall honor him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words: [14], Then shall you delight yourself in the LORD; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

• LEVITICUS 19:30 You shall keep MY SABBATHS, (God's claim to ownership of the Sabbath day)and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

• EZEKIEL 20:12 Moreover also I gave them MY SABBATHS, (God's claim to ownership of the Sabbath day) to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ used in Revelations 1:10 is in reference to the Lord's ownership of the day. It does not say that this day is in reference to μιά των σαββάτων which means the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK.

............................

Your challenge here in this OP is to prove from the scriptures alone that the Lord's DAY is in reference to the First day of the week. If you cannot all you have is a teaching and tradition of men that is not supported in the scriptures. There is not a single scripture in all the bible that refers to Sunday as being "the Lords day".

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

According to the scriptures, God established the Sabbath as a sign between the children of the nation of Israel throughout their generations. The Sabbath specifically is for Israel. The Christian church is not Israel.

...Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them.
Ezekiel 20:12

Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.
Ezekiel 30:13

 

[3rdAngel]

Then God exists in objective reality and you can show [him] to me, or at the least give that necessary and sufficient description that will enable us to determine whether any real suspect is God or not.

Yes God exists in objective reality. However, no one can know him or see Him if they walk the path of sin and unbelief. If you do not bite the apple you will never know what it tastes like.

If you can't do that then the only place God is known to exist is in the individual mind, no? Never seen or heard elsewhere.

No. You need to take a bite of the apple to know what the apple taste like.

Your reply doesn't address the only thing that matters ─ what objective test will tell us whether any particular text is θεόπνευστος or not? Because without such a test, we're just talking about individual opinion, not fact, no?

Actually for me that is not true at all but allow me to explain why or what I believe. I believe that 2 Timothy 3:16's definition of what scripture is in πᾶς γραφή θεόπνευστος means that all scripture is given by inspiration of God or is God breathed as coming from God or God's words and the Apostles and Gospel writers view was that Jesus was God and the promised Messiah foretold in the old covenant scriptures. That means if Jesus is God than His Words are scripture because they come from God that is God breathed or God's Words which is meaning of θεόπνευστος. This means the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles in the new testament are all scriptures like the words of Moses and the prophets in the old testament. (e.g. John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1). I do not think you have picked this up as yet. The objective test here are the Apostles and gospel writers of the New testament and the prophets of the old testament scriptures that believe Jesus was God making His Words God breathed scripture.

 

[3rdAngel]

According to the scriptures, God established the Sabbath as a sign between the children of the nation of Israel throughout their generations. The Sabbath specifically is for Israel. The Christian church is not Israel.
...Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. Ezekiel 20:12 Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. Ezekiel 30:13

Hi IC nice to meet you. According to the scriptures the name "Israel" is not covenant dependent and is only a name given by God to all those who by faith choose to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. In the old covenant to be a part of God's Israel one had to be born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham. However, in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer only all those born of the seed of Israel but are now only all those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise by the Spirit of God and gentile believers are now grafted into Gods' promise through faith *Romans 11:13-26 and we are now all one in Christ. If you are not a part of Gods' Israel through faith then you have no part in God's new covenant promise which was only even made with Israel not gentiles. There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

Lets look at some scripture....

• Ephesians 2:11-14 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

• GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

• God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

• ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

• God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

• ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

• COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

• ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

• EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

• JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

• Hebrews 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12). If we are all God's Israel today by being born of the Spirit through faith then everyone of God's Words are for His people this includes Gods' seventh day Sabbath that was made for all mankind according to Jesus when there was no Moses, no Hebrews, no Jews and no Israel (see Mark 2:27 compare Genesis 2:1-3) which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Gods' new covenant scriptures (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11).

Hope this is helpful.

 

[blü 2]

Yes God exists in objective reality. However, no one can know him or see Him if they walk the path of sin and unbelief. If you do not bite the apple you will never know what it tastes like.

If no one can know him or see him except under dictated mental conditions, how can it be said that God has objective existence? Once again the recipe fits God as idea, not God as fact.

Indeed, wouldn't it be the case that if God had objective existence then all enquirers in good faith (as I am) would find [him] and only [him] and the world would not have thousands of religions and gods?

Actually that is not true at all. As posted earlier, 2 Timothy 3:16's definition of what scripture in πᾶς γραφή θεόπνευστος means all scripture is given by inspiration of God or is God breathed as coming from God or God's words.

But that's not the question.

The question is still, What objective test will tell the enquirer which texts are god-breathed, and which are not.

And the problem is still, If there's no such objective test, then whether any text is god-breathed or not is determined only by personal opinion and not by fact. Which appears to me to be overwhelmingly likely to be the case. Without such a test, what distinguishes the Tanakh from the NT, the Qur'an, the Vedas, the Analects, the Buddhist writings and so on?

 

[InChrist]

Hi IC nice to meet you. According to the scriptures the name "Israel" is not covenant dependent and is only a name given by God to all those who by faith choose to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. In the old covenant to be a part of God's Israel one had to be born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham. However, in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer only all those born of the seed of Israel but are now only all those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise by the Spirit of God and gentile believers are now grafted into Gods' promise through faith *Romans 11:13-26 and we are now all one in Christ. If you are not a part of Gods' Israel through faith then you have no part in God's new covenant promise which was only even made with Israel not gentiles. There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

Lets look at some scripture....

• Ephesians 2:11-14 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

• GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

• God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

• ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

• God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

• ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

• COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

• ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

• EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

• JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

• Hebrews 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12). If we are all God's Israel today by being born of the Spirit through faith then everyone of God's Words are for His people this includes Gods' seventh day Sabbath that was made for all mankind according to Jesus when there was no Moses, no Hebrews, no Jews and no Israel (see Mark 2:27 compare Genesis 2:1-3) which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Gods' new covenant scriptures (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11).

Hope this is helpful.

I don’t really find this helpful because I consider replacement theology to be extremely unbiblical and taking verses out of context and twisting them to support one’s sectarian doctrines is contrary to the Bible’s admonition to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).


”After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor:10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today's world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.

Essential also is an understanding that the church was created through offering to both Jews and Gentiles a "new covenant" relationship with God. This did not bring Gentiles under the Jewish Mosaic law (as some erroneously teach), but delivered from it those coming into the church, both Jews and Gentiles. Paul explains that Gentiles who were "aliens ...of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise" have been "made nigh [to God] by the blood of Christ" (Eph:2:13).God has "broken down the middle wall of partition between [Jew and Gentile]; having abolished in his flesh the [Mosaic] law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain [Jew and Gentile] one new man" (Eph:2:11-22).

These scriptures (and many others) make it clear that the church did not replace Israel, but came into existence as a new and third entity comprised of both Jews and Gentiles and distinct from each. As surely as Gentiles continue to exist outside the church, so does Israel, with all of God's promises and plans for her remaining in full force. God also has unique plans for the church, differing from those for either Israel or the Gentile nations.”
Jews, Gentiles, and the Church

 

[Brian2]

Then perhaps you can show me a single scripture, Romans 14 that mentions the Sabbath and is not really talking about eating and not eating on days that that men esteem over other day?

You have not shown a single scripture that says Christians should keep the Sabbath and you have not shown that Romans 14 is not about the saturday sabbath.
Keep it to the Lord if that is what you think you should do but don't say that all Christians must observe it when the scripture says that Jesus took the law away.
And you have not shown that the 10 commandments is not a part of the law that is taken away.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace…

 

[3rdAngel]

If no one can know him or see him except under dictated mental conditions, how can it be said that God has objective existence? Once again the recipe fits God as idea, not God as fact. Indeed, wouldn't it be the case that if God had objective existence then all enquirers in good faith (as I am) would find [him] and only [him] and the world would not have thousands of religions and gods?

Who says no one can know God and see him? I believe now God is not an idea but is fact like the person that takes a bite of the apple who knows what the apple tastes like. They know the apple is real and what it tastes like. God reveals himself to those who choose to believe and follow His Word. Faith in Gods' Word which is believing and obeying the scriptures brings us the apple to bite. We cannot know God or find him if we do not first take a bite of the apple (the bible). I was once an atheist. I also currently have a long career as a Government research scientist in biology. As a scientist we ask a lot of questions in our research to form a positive or negative hypothesize and we measure and test to see if our hypothesis is true or not true.

That kind of carried over into my personal life. I came to a stage in my life when I was questioning everything I believed in and asked myself the question what if? That is, what if I am wrong and there is more to life than eating, drinking, sleeping working and dying. After all as an atheist I could not prove and no one has ever proven that there is no God and that God does not exist. It is something that we simply cannot empirically test for.

So I wanted to see if there was really a God or gods in religion for myself and to see if God was real and if there was peace in knowing Him so I could put this question that was bugging me to rest. In my spare time I started looking into some of the eastern religions like Buddhism, Taoism and put myself into learning and practicing them, but after some time I came to the realization that there was no peace and God there. It was just a man-made philosophy teaching and lifestyle. Over time not in any order or practice, I have looked into Atheism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Mysticism with the same outcome, no peace and no God was there.

Finally in the very last place I expected to find God I looked into Christianity. I was not expecting to find God here and had always tried to make Christians look silly as an atheist (so I thought) but I wanted to finish this journey and to give it a try and started to read the bible for myself and prayed to God to show me if He real and reveal himself to me in my life. For a Christian (I define as one who believes and follows what Gods' Word says), prayer is how we speak with God, while the bible (scripture) and dreams and visions is how God speaks with us. We talk to God in prayer because He loves us and wants us to tell Him everything. He knows we have need of things before we even ask Him.

To cut a long story short, every time I came to the bible seeking to learn about God and started reading it seemed to be very different to me than just reading another book. Every time I opened the bible and started reading it I would always feel strangely peaceful like someone was saying to me everything will be alright and I believed it and felt at peace. The more I started praying and reading the bible and seeking to obey what the bible says this strange peace increased in my life. Many times in my life there were challenges I have had to face and every time I prayed when I saw no way of escape my prayers were strangely answered. Then as I continued to seek God through His Word I came across promises like those found in Jeremiah 29:13 which says "You shall seek me and find me when you shall search for me with all of your heart". I continued seeking to find and know God through the bible, than one night as I went to sleep, I believe I met Jesus. This was not like a normal dream it was different. It was surreal like I know it was read but cannot explain how I knew it was real. When I met Jesus all I could feel in His presence was love for me. It was like I was surrounded and engulfed in perfect love. Then I awoke by this intense experience knowing I had just met God crying with tears running down my face. I could not explain what I had just experienced but knew it was real and supernatural.

Then one day as I was continuing to read the bible I came across some scripture that spoke to me from Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:27 that says; “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." It was like God was talking to me in person as I was reading these scriptures and thinking about my experience in meeting Jesus in my dream.

Now I am not expecting you to believe my experience here and also expecting you to try and explain it away. However for me (who has taken a bite of this apple) I have no doubt in my heart that what I experienced was real and have tasted this apple and know what it tastes like. So for me I know with no doubts in my heart that God is indeed real. I have met Him and know Him and He knows me. This has been one of many experience in my life tasting and eating many apples over time. I believe this is something we can never know if we continue down the road of sin and unbelief because faith in God's Words are the conditions to meeting and knowing God is real according to the scriptures. If I never tasted the apple I would generally agree with most things you are saying in our discussions. However it is because I have tasted the apple so to speak I know what you say is not true because I now know God is real.

The question is still, What objective test will tell the enquirer which texts are god-breathed, and which are not. And the problem is still, If there's no such objective test, then whether any text is god-breathed or not is determined only by personal opinion and not by fact. Which appears to me to be overwhelmingly likely to be the case. Without such a test, what distinguishes the Tanakh from the NT, the Qur'an, the Vedas, the Analects, the Buddhist writings and so on?

The objective test here is all the gospel writers and Apostles that believe Jesus was God. As posted earlier, I believe that 2 Timothy 3:16's definition of what scripture is in πᾶς γραφή θεόπνευστος means that all scripture is given by inspiration of God or is God breathed as coming from God or God's words and the Apostles and Gospel writers view was that Jesus was God and the promised Messiah foretold in the old covenant scriptures. That means if Jesus is God than His Words are scripture because they come from God that is God breathed or God's Words which is meaning of θεόπνευστος. This means the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles in the new testament are all scriptures like the words of Moses and the prophets in the old testament. (e.g. John 1:1-4; 14; John 5:18; Matthew 1:23; from Isaiah 9:6; Titus 2:13; Mark 1:24; Acts 10:41; 2 Corinthians 1:21; John 10:30; John 8:58; John 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:3; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Peter 1:1). I do not think you have picked this up as yet. The objective test here are the Apostles and gospel writers of the New testament and the prophets of the old testament scriptures that believe Jesus was God making His Words God breathed scripture. So no I do not agree with you here at all and have already have some direct and personal experiences in the other religions you point to and did not find God and any of them.

 

[Brian2]

You have that backwards. When stories are unsupported, at least partially refuted, and often self contradictory there is no good reason to believe them. There is no need to assume that they are a "pack of lies". They may be merely totally wrong. People may have believed the stories that naturally evolved. That does not make them lies, though I grand that parts of them do look like lies.

The story of the resurrected Jesus certainly began as a lie if it is not true.
If you can say that stories naturally evolved and so were not originally lies, you should easily be able to see how the gospels ended up with different versions of what happened, versions that might disagree in some minor details only.
The gospels do support each other as to what Jesus did and said etc and I don't see that they are even partially refuted.

 

[Brian2]

I would disagree. "Made to harmonize" is often just a way of lying. When one takes a bad situation and cannot admit that it is wrong one makes the religion weaker.

For example you do know that Luke's nativity is pure hokum I hope.

I have no reason to think that Luke's version of the birth of Jesus is wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The story of the resurrected Jesus certainly began as a lie if it is not true.
If you can say that stories naturally evolved and so were not originally lies, you should easily be able to see how the gospels ended up with different versions of what happened, versions that might disagree in some minor details only.
The gospels do support each other as to what Jesus did and said etc and I don't see that they are even partially refuted.

No, Tales grow with telling. Lies are purposefully attempting to deceive by telling something untrue. A lies has to have the intent of deception . That can be very hard to prove. It is better to say that they were just wrong.

 

[Brian2]

Oh, you mean like how people don’t know the difference between ‘Then’ and ‘Than’?

But, 0k. But how is ‘Practise’ related to ‘Practical’?

Like practice and practise, prophecy and prophesy are distinguished by the c and s in the spelling. C being for the noun and s being for the verb.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have no reason to think that Luke's version of the birth of Jesus is wrong.

Then you have not studied it at all.

Now as to lies, I cannot see how apologists can defend that myth without lying on purpose.

Let me ask you a question. Roughly what year does Matthew have the birth of Jesus?

 

[Brian2]

Weird questions. Just own up to your error. You tried to claim that a person that understood his own language better than you do that he was wrong

In America we tried to "fix" the English language at one point. It did not take long to realize that we could not do so. "ough" alone is a huge problem. But as a result we dropped some of the superfluous "u"s changed the endings of some words from "re" to "er". Made much more liberal use of the letter "z", and a few other "corrections". Yet I still see you using a "u" in savior. There is no real reason to have it in the US. You are probably just copying your KJV Bible.

I was so tempted to "correct" your spelling of "saviour". after that post of yours. <and Google is trying to get me to change it too>

Yes the US spelling has a lot of differences compared to English and Australian. "or" instead of "our" in words such as honour and saviour for example and many "z" s used in words where we in Australia use "s". Eg realise. And google does try to get everyone in the world to spell things the same way,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but maybe I have ticked an "American English" box somewhere.

 

[Brian2]

Then you have not studied it at all.

Now as to lies, I cannot see how apologists can defend that myth without lying on purpose.

Let me ask you a question. Roughly what year does Matthew have the birth of Jesus?

I have compared Matthew and Luke and see that they can be harmonised (correct spelling) in relation to the birth of Jesus.
Matthew has Jesus birth some time before the death of Herod in 4BC.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Hi IC nice to meet you. According to the scriptures the name "Israel" is not covenant dependent and is only a name given by God to all those who by faith choose to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. In the old covenant to be a part of God's Israel one had to be born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham. However, in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer only all those born of the seed of Israel but are now only all those who have been born again into God's new covenant promise by the Spirit of God and gentile believers are now grafted into Gods' promise through faith *Romans 11:13-26 and we are now all one in Christ. If you are not a part of Gods' Israel through faith then you have no part in God's new covenant promise which was only even made with Israel not gentiles. There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

Lets look at some scripture....

• Ephesians 2:11-14 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

• GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

• God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

• ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

• God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

• ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

• COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

• ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

• EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

• JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

• Hebrews 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD. If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12). If we are all God's Israel today by being born of the Spirit through faith then everyone of God's Words are for His people this includes Gods' seventh day Sabbath that was made for all mankind according to Jesus when there was no Moses, no Hebrews, no Jews and no Israel (see Mark 2:27 compare Genesis 2:1-3) which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Gods' new covenant scriptures (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:10-11).

Your response here...

I don’t really find this helpful because I consider replacement theology to be extremely unbiblical and taking verses out of context and twisting them to support one’s sectarian doctrines is contrary to the Bible’s admonition to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

”After the Cross a new entity came into existence—the church that Jesus Christ promised He would build (Mt 16:18). As a result, there are now three divisions of mankind: Jews, Gentiles and the church. Paul tells us that we are to "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God" (1 Cor:10:32). It is absolutely essential to understand that these three groups exist side by side in today's world, to distinguish between them, and to recognize that God deals with each differently.

Essential also is an understanding that the church was created through offering to both Jews and Gentiles a "new covenant" relationship with God. This did not bring Gentiles under the Jewish Mosaic law (as some erroneously teach), but delivered from it those coming into the church, both Jews and Gentiles. Paul explains that Gentiles who were "aliens ...of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise" have been "made nigh [to God] by the blood of Christ" (Eph:2:13).God has "broken down the middle wall of partition between [Jew and Gentile]; having abolished in his flesh the [Mosaic] law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain [Jew and Gentile] one new man" (Eph:2:11-22).

These scriptures (and many others) make it clear that the church did not replace Israel, but came into existence as a new and third entity comprised of both Jews and Gentiles and distinct from each. As surely as Gentiles continue to exist outside the church, so does Israel, with all of God's promises and plans for her remaining in full force. God also has unique plans for the church, differing from those for either Israel or the Gentile nations.”
Jews, Gentiles, and the Church

There is no such thing as replacement theology. That is a man-made teaching that denies what the scriptures teach. The post that was shared with you is new testament scripture. Rather than ignoring it would you like to explain what it is you disagree with in the post you are quoting from and explain why you disagree with the new covenant scriptures that have been shared with you and discuss the detail with me? Making blanket statements without showing why you disagree is just simply being dismissive without proving why only shows someone not opened to having their beliefs challenged. According to Jesus we should not be afraid of bringing everything we believe to the light of God's Word to see if what we believe or do not believe is based on the truth of Gods' Word or not. According to though many love darkness rather than the light of Gods' Word and neither will they come to the light of Gods' Word lest their deeds be reproved. Lets pray we are not of these who follow darkness rather than the light and truth of Gods' Word (see John 3:18-21).

Take Care.

 

[3rdAngel]

You have not shown a single scripture that says Christians should keep the Sabbath and you have not shown that Romans 14 is not about the saturday sabbath.
Keep it to the Lord if that is what you think you should do but don't say that all Christians must observe it when the scripture says that Jesus took the law away.
And you have not shown that the 10 commandments is not a part of the law that is taken away.

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace…

Sure I provided scripture showing Christians are to keep the Sabbath. Just like Christians are not to lie, steal or murder. Jesus and the Apostles all kept the Sabbath as did the early Church. It is you that cannot show me a single scripture in all the bible that says Gods' 4th commandment which is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give a the knowledge of what sin is when broke (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest now have you. Your not seriously trying to argue now that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished now are you by quoting an out of context Ephesians 2:15 now are you? That interpretation of the scripture is pretty much in contradiction to the whole bible and all the writings of Jesus and the Apostles in the new testament. Are you really trying to argue that for Christians that the 10 commandments of which the 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath we are now free to disobey? Think about your post for a minute. If your trying to pull a single scripture from Ephesians 2:15 and your trying to argue that it is a reference to Gods' 10 commandments then how do you reconcile that interpretation of scripture with all the scriptures from Jesus and the Apostles that teach they are to be obeyed? Your interpretation of Ephesians 2:3 is saying it is now alright for Christians to go out and lie, steal commit adultery, murder, use Gods name in vain, make idols and have other Gods. I hope that is not what your saying. Gods' 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath is one of those same commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is in the new covenant.

FYI read the whole chapter of Ephesians 2 for context. Don't simply believe what others are trying to teach you. Prayerfully study God's Word for yourself. According to the scriptures, the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles is the separation between them by the commandments contained in “ordinances (Ephesians 2:15). God’s 10 commandments were never contained in ordinances. The Greek word used here is the same words used in Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting contained in ordinances that were against us.” The Greek word used here for “ordinances” is δόγμα (dógma | G1378) which means a civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law that was against us. So the reference here is not to God’s 10 commandments but the laws in “ordinances” (civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) that separated Jews from the Gentile believers in Ephesians 2:15. The laws of separation were the laws for remission of sins. Genetile believers were not allowed to partake of the laws for remission of sins unless they became proselytes or converted to Judaism. Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition by His death putting and end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) that all point to Christ and were fulfilled in Him at his death nailing them to the cross *Colossians 2:14 hat he might create in himself of the two (Jew and Gentile believers) one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (sin and its penalty of condemnation and death) *Ephesians 2:15-16.

Take Care

 

[blü 2]

Who says no one can know God and see him? I believe now God is not an idea but is fact.

So you mentioned, but a fact is an accurate statement about a real state of affairs, and "real", in my book, means existing in the world external to the self, nature.

Where no gods may be found, since if they were, you could show them to me.

Then one day as I was continuing to read the bible I came across some scripture that spoke to me from Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:27 that says; “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." It was like God was talking to me in person as I was reading these scriptures and thinking about my experience in meeting Jesus in my dream.

But these are all personal mental events, not real events. I'm not arguing that they're not meaningful to you. I'm simply arguing they don't exist in the world external to you, or you could show them to me.

The objective test here is all the gospel writers and Apostles that believe Jesus was God.

No, neither Paul nor the authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke or John thought Jesus was God. In each case their particular Jesus specifically denies he's God, and never claims to be God. (I can set out some quotes for you if you wish.) It's true that the Jesuses of Paul and John pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe, but Jesus' status was that of a divine being such as an angel in those cases.

Although there was pressure from quite early on (but after the gospels were written) to elevate the central figure of Christianity to god status, no model acceptable to the various Christian factions was found till the 4th century, when the Trinity doctrine took flight. Unfortunately for common sense, that doctrine, by the Churches' own admission, is "a mystery in the strict sense" in that "it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine ─ which is a fair description of a nonsense, no?

The objective test here are the Apostles and gospel writers of the New testament and the prophets of the old testament scriptures that believe Jesus was God making His Words God breathed scripture.

So no I do not agree with you here at all and have already have some direct and personal experiences in the other religions you point to and did not find God and any of them.

That can't be right. They hadn't read the Vedas or the early Buddhist writings ─ though they knew a little of Greek philosophy / theology, since like the Jews they borrowed ideas from it ─ so they can't be said to have made an informed decision. Nor is anything but personal opinion involved at any point.