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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    No, it would be hysterical, if it weren't so serious. We have been over this before.

    Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day





    For instance, after scripture, we can see the fraud being perpetrated:

    Here is the long form of the citation of spurious Ignatius, since there are several conflicting:

    "... For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8.

    But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.

    It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.

    These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ . . . .—ch. 11. ..." - ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Let's examine the longer form first, with which the reader will immediately notice a severe problem. The very quote that is supposed to prove that "Christians . . . never [worshipped] on the Sabbath" actually commands "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath without being guilty of Judaizing!

    The words "and after the observance of the Sabbath" were intentionally deleted from the quote. Another example of fraud?

    Now to the other shorter form. The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - Link or Link.

    Amazing, having to rely upon spurious writings, pseudo-works, which are forgeries.

    Then they attempt to cite the Didache:

    The quote is misleading oftentimes and in error in translation (as most are, begging the question). The original Greek (Didache 14:1) does not have the word for "day" anywhere in that sentence and secondly, neither is the word "Sunday" present.

    "... 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ..." - The Twelve Apostles-Didache

    Where is the word for "day" (hemera)? Where is the word for "Sunday"? Where is the word "first"?

    It literally reads, "κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου" (Lord of Lord).

    Their translation is imaginary.

    So far, we have spurious and imaginary.

    And then they attempt Pseduo-Barnabus:

    According to pseudo-Barnabas (ought we to really trust a letter that claims to be from another, didn't Paul warn about such letters being circulated? 2 Thessalonians 2:2), we are too wicked (Christians are too wicked???) at present to keep the Sabbath, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns (so we are going to keep Sabbath again in the New Heavens and New Earth, that doesn't sound like people use this quote for). Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday instead. What good does this reasoning do for the cause of Sunday sacredness or holiness if we are too wicked?

    Pseudo Barnabas also teaches the earth ends in the 7,000th year from creation. Do they accept this also?
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I did not ask you for history for this man made tradition brother that claims "THE LORDS DAY" is "SUNDAY". I asked you for scripture. You have been provided scripture showing why it is a tradition and you have no scripture to prove Sunday or the first day of the week is the Lords day. So if you have no scripture who should you believe and follow; the Word of God or the teachings and traditions of men that break the Word of God? Who will you choose to believe and follow?
     
  3. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Show me the word "sabbath", "law", "commandment/s", "the 7th day" in the passages of Romans 14 KJB.

    Romans 14, the quick of it, as I have a much, much more indepth study of it.

    Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
    Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
    Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
    Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
    Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
    Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.​

    This is used to teach that God regards not any day as Holy, such as the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD thy God (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), and that all days or no days may be kept at man's whim. Yet that is not what Romans 14 (and yea, all of Romans) teaches at all. Notice carefully,

    [1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

    [2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

    [3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

    Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]​

    [4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

    [8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

    [9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

    Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.​

    [10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

    Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.​

    [11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

    [12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

    [13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

    [14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

    [15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

    [17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

    [18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances​

    Let's look at the details of Romans 14.

    Romans 14 KJB, deals with the days that "man esteemeth" among men, see Luke 16:15 KJB. God esteems His Holy day [Job 23:12; Psalms 119:126-128 KJB].

    The "day" in Romans 14 is associated with eating and not eating, among "men", which are days set apart for men for fasting/feasting, etc. The Jews had constantly fought with one another over which days were better to do this or that [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]. Some Jews decide that any day was fine to do any of those things, while others had specific days picked out for those things [see also the so called "Didache" for this error]. Paul stated it didn't matter, and each was fine, so long as either side did it unto the LORD, to the glory of God, not for personal gain/prestige/notice [as the Pharisees had done], but that what mattered was brotherly love within the body, preferring one another. Connect Romans 14, to 1 Corinthians 8-10 KJB. There were issues with the Gentile believers purchasing food in the shambles [marketplaces] which may have been blessed or offered before idols, and some Jews, and possibly Gentiles believers which took offense at anyone partaking of those things. Paul stated that an Idol is nothing, but the persons for whom Christ Jesus died were of value, and therefore, regard the conscience of another, and cause no one to sin, even if what was eaten was immediately lawful to a person, but such freedom within God's law, not everything is always expedient, or best to do at all times. There were also Jewish believers in Christ who still under their vows, even Nazarite vows, and thus things of the vine in matters of eating and drinking would come into play as well. Just because Christ Jesus died on the Cross, doesn't negate their vow - they still had to carry out what they said they would do. If you Read Romans 1-13, the Law, the Ten Commandments of God are spoken of and cited throughout, as eternal, as the judge of sin [Romans 7:7 KJB; in fact how did you know you needed as Saviour? What Law was transgressed by yourself? Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], and Romans 15-16 continue and complete this picture. God's Ten Commandments are Eternal [Psalms 89:34 KJB], His Sabbath from Genesis to Revelation, even into the New Heavens and New Earth [Isaiah 66:22-23 KJB].
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I would chose Christ. He has given us His example of what life is
    acceptable to God. This entails His ministry, His moral standards
    and His manner of worship.

    Sure, He didn't mention the end of the Jewish Passover, despite
    it being the law of Moses, but we understand, without benefit of
    scripture, that the Passover, like the old Sabbath, the animal
    sacrifices, the priestly garments, the physical altar etc are all
    passed away. Repeat, all passed away.

    So if you observe the Jewish Sabbath, don't kill, don't hate,
    don't steal etc.. Of itself you are as saved as those Jews who
    killed the Messiah.
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your mixing up the Shadow laws in the book of the old covenant *Exodus 24:7 that pointed to JESUS and Gods plan of salvation in the new covenant *Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10; Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 with God's eternal LAW (10 commandments) that in the new covenant give us the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172.

    According to God's Word in the new covenant if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when it is broken and if we break it just like any of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of son *James 2:10-11.

    There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. According to God's Word all those who knowingly practice sin will not enter the kingdom of heave because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-39.

    God has his people in every Church *John 10:16 and knows that his people have been led astray by these Churches and in times of ignorance God does not hold us accountable for sin but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of his Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow him *Acts 17:30-31. God is calling his people out from following man made teachings and traditions *Matthew 15:3-9 back to the pure Word of God *John 4:23-24; Revelation 18:1-4

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *John 10:26-27
     
  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Sunday is my day off.
    That is what my employer ordered
    So what do you expect me to do?

    Now explain to us why the Bible has this verse?

    Romans 14:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
    One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.

    Sabbath is sacred to you, isn't it?
    Otherwise you won't be here insisting its the Lord's day.
    One person considers one day more sacred than another....

    [​IMG]

    But it did, didn't it?
    One person considers one day more sacred than another....
    You are the person who considers one day more sacred than another.
    Now to be clear if there is no mention of Romans 14 on the Sabbath, let us use another comprehensive bible translation

    upload_2019-11-18_20-1-8.jpeg

    Romans 14:5-6 Expanded Bible (EXB)
    Some ·think [decide; judge] that one day is more ·important [sacred; holy] than another, and others think that every day is the same [C the issue is whether to observe the Jewish Sabbath]. Let all be ·sure [fully convinced] ·in their own mind [according to their convictions/conscience]. Those who ·think one day is more important than other days [L observe the day] are doing that for the Lord. And those who ·eat all kinds of food [L eat] are doing that for the Lord, ·and [since; for] they give thanks to God. Others who ·refuse to eat some foods [L do not eat] do that for the Lord, and they give thanks to God.

    Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14:5-6 - Expanded Bible

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

    Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.







     
  8. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    From what translation did you get your quotation Heb. 4;9 ? It is a flat out error. Is your quotation from the Clear Bible? The word sabbath is not used in the 9 translations I have.

    You are confusing the rest of being in Christ, as being the sabbath. Not the same, at all. One who rests in Christ is at peace, free of worry, free of fear. Keeping one day of the week gives you none of these things.

    I note you simply blew off the questions I asked you, is that because you couldn't answer them ?

    When Christ is speaking of all being fulfilled, what does He mean ? He meant the fulfillment of the first Covenant at the cross. The fulfillment of the entire OT placing of Israel as responsible for spreading the knowledge of God to the world. When He said it is finished on the cross, He meant not only the sacrifice for sin, but the entire first covenant, it was all fulfilled.

    The law of Christ, made clear in in the NT gives us the knowledge of what sin is. This is the law of the new covenant, not the old.

    Lets talk about sin for a moment. What is it ? You will tell me it is the violation of the ten commandments.

    So then, if a person is born with a condition that makes them unaccountable for sin, perhaps the mentality of a young child so they never are able to understand sin, and they die at 25, do they need Christs sacrifice, his blood, for salvation ? They never sinned, right ? So why would they need it ? So millions have died sinless, not breaking one of the ten commandments, they are saved separate and apart from Christs sacrifice. Correct ?

    Martin Luther said we are born in sin as sinners. Adventists do not accept this, or do they ? What do you think ?

    Adam was perfect, never saw sin, never heard of it, and lived in a perfect environment, there was only one law he had to keep, do not eat. He had no knowledge of good or evil. He made the cold hard choice to sin.

    Christ is called by Paul the second Adam, did he have Adams sinless nature ? Like you, or not ?

    Here is the point, if we are born sinners, sin is more than just breaking some law as you propose.

    2nd Corinthians 3:7 NKJV Calls " the ministry engraved on stones" the ten commandments, the ministry of death. He says this ministry had glory which is fading away, but the ministry of righteousness has much more glory.
    Are you still under the ministry of death ?

    Galatians 3:10 NKJV says " For as many that are of the works of the law are under it's curse, for it is written" cursed is everyone who does not continue in ALL things written in the book of the law ( the Torah, which includes the ten commandments) to do them. So, do you keep the law perfectly, if not, you are under a curse, do you sin, if so, you are under a curse. V 7) "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.v8) And scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith...................................

    Galatians 3: 24 " Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith, but after faith has come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE TUTOR."

    Those justified by faith are not under the law. Paul means the OT law, including the ten commandments, since the NT law did not completely exist yet.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    @Crosstian, apparently you are determined to have the last word in our conversation. Even if you're not sick of the two of us going around in circles on something we will never, ever agree on, I am. When you respond to this post, declaring victory, I'll simply not reply. Hopefully, that will satisfy you. Have a nice day and I'll see you around the forum.
     
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  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    A man of great faith, is a man of great faith. They had this faith before crises came into their life, both are recorded as being very supportive of the Jews, and one studied with the Jews. Their faith was in Christ as the Messiah, not as a magician, According to you, these Gentiles who did not keep the Jewish sabbath are not saved. You deny the very words of Christ to promote the Adventist doctrine of salvation by works. That is sad,

    My training is in the law, and in the law evidence is gathered to determine the truth. The term " the Lords Day" is only used once in the Bible, in Revelation. Which begs the question, if it meant the sabbath, why didn't John just say so ? Throughout the Bible, when the sabbath is meant, the word sabbath is used. John never used in his other writings The Lords Day for the Sabbath.

    We know from extra Biblical sources that Gentile congregations were meeting on sunday, in honor of the Resurrection at the time Revelation was written.


    Polycarp, who was a student under the Apostle John, never said that anyone was to keep the Jewish sabbath.

    The evidence is powerful that the term "The Lords Day" means Sunday. You cannot substantiate the claim that it means the sabbath, there is no Biblical reference saying so.

    Without evidence, you must say it is the Jewish sabbath, adhering to the dogmatic Adventist position that states that all are to keep the Jewish sabbath.

    The day given to them as a sign of the first covenant, between they and God, no one else. It was not given to any Gentile.

    Of course the Apostles went to the synagogues on the sabbath, that is where the Jews were, they wanted to convert them, and in the beginning Christianity was considered a Jewish sect. No Gentiles were ministered to till Paul was made the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul never commanded anyone to keep the sabbath. As I have already have quoted to you, Paul said do what your conscience tells you, there is no absolute right or wrong on the matter.

    I have met many Adventists who worship the law, instead of Christ, they are obsessed by it. They worship the fourth commandment and use it as a badge to show they are " remnant people". Of course that is nonsense, even by SDA theology, since EGW says the remnant won't even exist ill the end.

    And sadly there are Adventists ( I was one), who use their perceived special badge to judge the souls of those who do not keep the Jewish sabbath.

    Tell me, If Adventism and the law, specifically the sabbath, are the only way to salvation, Why has Adventism, in over 150 years, not been able to convert the vast majority of Christians ? There are millions and millions of Christians who are walking in faith by the Spirit. Why hasn';t the Spirit convinced them in droves to become Adventists if the sabbath is so important ?

    Or, do you believe that only Adventists have been given the gift of the Spirit ?

    Oh, to your verse about praying that the destruction of Jerusalem not come on the sabbath. Is there anywhere in the OT or NT where it is commanded that if you are attacked, you cannot run if it is on the sabbath ? No.

    The reason for this verse is that the Jews closed the gates of the city on the sabbath, except for one or two small pedestrian gates. Further, knowing the Roman army was approaching, you could not by food or any other needed provision for your escape.

    The verse has nothing to do with Christians keeping the sabbath, and everything to do with their ability to escape.
     
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    You say Sunday is your day off because this is what your employer ordered. God says that the "seventh day Sabbath" is our day off, and commands us to rest on the "seventh day Sabbath" because he blessed the seventh day and made the seventh day a Holy day or rest. This is a simple decision in my view. We ough to obey God rather than man...

    ACTS 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Who do you believe and follow; God or man?
     
    #151 3rdAngel, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Now please show us where in any of these scriptures God's WORD is talking about God's 4th Commandment. Your trying your best to read into the scriptures something that they are not talking about. The CONTEXT that you leave out of v5 and v6 read this way.

    ROMANS 14:1-22

    [1], Him that is weak in the faith receive you, but not to doubtful disputations.

    [2], For one believes that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eats herbs.

    [3], Let not him that eats despise him that eats not; and let not him which eats not judge him that eats: for God has received him.

    [4], Who are you that judge another man's servant? to his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be held up: for God is able to make him stand.

    [5], One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    [6], He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord; and he that regards not the day, to the Lord he does not regard it. He that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that eats not, to the Lord he eats not, and gives God thanks.

    [7], For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself.

    [8], For whether we live, we live to the Lord; and whether we die, we die to the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

    [9], For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

    [10], But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nothing your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

    [11], For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

    [12], So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    [13], Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

    [14], I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteems any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

    [15], But if your brother be grieved with your meat, now walk you not charitably. Destroy not him with your meat, for whom Christ died.

    [16], Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

    [17], For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    [19], Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things with which one may edify another.

    [20], For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eats with offense.

    [21], It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak.

    [22], Have you faith? have it to yourself before God. Happy is he that comdemns not himself in that thing which he allows.

    [23], And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatever is not of faith is sin.

    .............

    ROMANS 14 is talking about eating and not eating connected to days that men esteem over other days, not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

    LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

    There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment of any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.
     
    #152 3rdAngel, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Sure no problem. Let's look at the scriptures and all the context. When you do you will see that the chapter has nothing to do with God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

    ROMANS 14

    Romans 14:1
    Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

    It is clear that there has been some sort of dispute happening in the congregation of Rome, to which Paul is trying to provide his advise. Paul’s writing in Romans Chapter 14 revolve completely around a “dispute which is doubtful” – this is the context! We must remember that there is no doubt or dispute when it comes to God’s Word. We know that not even one jot or tittle will in anyway pass from the Law till heaven and earth last. God’s eternal Word cannot be called a “doubtful disputation”. If God’s Food Laws was the main subject matter, this would make God’s Law and Word (which was kept by Paul) a “doubtful disputation”. In Paul’s own words “God Forbid”!

    Romans 14:2-6 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    Now to deconstruct this debatable “dispute”. Paul Speaks of 2 categories of people. One eats all things, while the other only eats vegetables. One regards a certain day, while the other does not. One eats, while the other doesn’t. The dispute is hence, regarding eating or not on specific days. “Fasting” in other words! As we know, eating vegetables or a basic diet that did not include any meat, wine or anything pleasant was constituted by Daniel when he fasted (Daniel 10:2,3 & Daniel 1:12,16). It is a known fact that fasting was practiced heavily in the 1st century (Matthew 6:16; 9:14,15, Mark 2:18-20, Luke 5:33-35). And historical documents reveal that Monday and Thursday were considered fast days in the second temple period (Ta’an. 2:4) The pharisee who prayed in Luke 18:12 about fasting twice a week, would have been keeping these fast days.

    It is important to note that these fast days were traditions, and did not have root in Scripture. The “dispute” of Romans 14 is whether or not to fast on these traditional days. Some believers were fasting on these days, and some were not. Paul’s advise was, not to judge one another and be thankful whether you eat or fast – or keep the traditional fast days or not – as these were doubtful disputes as they did not have Scriptural backing.

    Luke 18:11-12
    [11], The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank you, that I am not as other men are, extortionists, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. [12], I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    It was not wrong to fast. It was not wrong to eat either. It was not wrong to fast on specific days. It was not wrong to fast on other days either. Be fully persuaded in your own mind, of what you do – was Paul’s advise to the congregation.

    ROMANS 14 is talking about eating and not eating (fasting) connected to days that men esteem over other days, not what days God esteems. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

    LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

    There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment of any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

    SOME POINTS TO CONSIDER IN ROMANS 14:1-23

    [1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

    [2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

    [3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem:

    Luke16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

    The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12]

    [4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

    [8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

    [9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin:

    Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

    [10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point:

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    [11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14

    [12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

    [13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

    [14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14

    [15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

    [16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

    [17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

    [18] anyone who quotes Romans 14, has in mind 'restrictions', rather than allowances

    .............

    CONCLUSION: Romans 14 says nothing about God's 4th commandment at all. The scriptures are talking about food connected to days (eating and not eating (fasting) that men esteem over other days. Not what days God esteems and judging others. The things that men esteem are an abomination in God's eyes.

    LUKE 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

    There is no mention in all of ROMANS 14 of God's 4th commandment or any of God's 10 commandments. Your reading into the scriptures something it is not talking about.

    Sorry brother your trying to read into the scriptures things the scriptures do not teach or say.

    Hope this helps.
     
  14. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    I very rarely go to church on a Sunday.
    I nearly always go to Thursday evening Eucharist.
    So the day I set aside is Thursday.
    I do not think any particular sequence of days means anything at all to God.
    There is no calendar for the Universe.

    According to the Bible God spent almost no time creating the rest of the universe, but most of it fussing with an insignificant planet that we call the world.

    To base a calendar on such poor documentation is ridiculous.
     
    #154 Terrywoodenpic, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  15. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    No, the Sabbath is not abolished.
    The Christian Sabbath became the Sunday - it was in honor of the Lord's
    resurrection. The Lord Himself guiding the disciples and followers to do
    this.

    This is f.a.c.t. - attested by scripture and shown by history.
     
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  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Actually nope! It is not an error at all it is taken from the orginal Greek and Aramiac and it is the closest to the actual correct translation from all the translations specifically to the context of Hebrews 4:1-5 which is discussing God's rest of the "seventh day Sabbath" created from the foundation of the world.

    Let's have a look at the detail.....

    HEBREWS 4:1-11
    [1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
    [4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
    [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

    NOTE
    : CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST! Let's continue...

    6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    [7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    [8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

    Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

    [10], For he that is entered into HIS REST (v9 God's SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

    [11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST (God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (HEBREWS 3).

    .............

    CONCLUSION
    : HEBREWS 4 is talking about the Gospel rest of BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD; v29 Learn of me; v30 my burden (doing) is light. This agrees with Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. HEBREWS 4:1-11 is in reference to GOD'S REST which God's WORD defines is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is the CONTEXT shown in HEBREWS 4:1-5. HEBREWS 4 therefore with context added is saying that no one enter God's Sabbath rest if they do not BELIEVE AND FOLLOW God's WORD.

    ..............

    Lets look at HEBREWS 4:9 in a bit more detail..

    [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. (Aramaic)

    STRONGS LEXICON
    So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive. there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ () Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people. of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

    STRONGS CONCORDENCE
    sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

    STRONGS
    sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration:sabbatismos Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos') Definition: a sabbath rest
    Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

    THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON
    STRONGS NT 4520: σαββατισμός σαββατισμός, σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);
    1. a keeping sabbath. 2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians (R. V. sabbath rest): Hebrews 4:9. (Plutarch, de superstit. c. 3; ecclesiastical writings.)

    Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

    HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH (σαββατισμός sabbatismos).

    or parrallel..

    HEBREWS 4:9 [9],THERE REMAINS THAN A SABBATH REST (σαββατισμός sabbatismos) FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD

    The translation for "Keeping Sabbath" comes from the Greek word that is used in Hebrews 4:9, σαββατισμός, pronounced sabbatismos, which is a noun form that means Sabbath rest, Sabbath keeping observance (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).

    This term appears also in Plutarch (Superset. 3 [Moralia 166a]) for sabbath observance or keeping, and in four post-canonical Christian writings which are not dependent on Heb. 4:9 (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, Vol. 5, p. 856).

    The Greek word, σαββατισμός sabbatismos, is a noun. The verb form of the word is σαββατίζω sabbatizo, which means to keep the Sabbath (Arndt and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).

    So as shown above through the Greek the Aramaic is translation is the closest to the orginal language tranlation that agrees to the context provided in HEBREWS 4:1-11

    Abbot Smiths Greek Lexicon of the New Testament *σαββατισμός, -οῦ, ὁ (<σαββατίζω, TO KEEP THE SABBATH, Exo 16:30, al.), A KEEPING SABBATH, A SABBATH REST: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.

    SABBATISMOS is taken from SABBATON meaning THE REST GIVEN IN GOD'S SEVENTH DAY SABBATH. The cyriac or Aramaic form of which SABBATISMOS is taken is therefore the most accurate translation and reads...

    [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. (Aramaic)

    Hope this helps.
     
    #156 3rdAngel, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It's really a shame when one takes one item of ritual observance that does not directly relate to faith, and then they use that as some sort of litmus test to determine whom is the "true Christian". It's ritualism and judgmentalism at its worse.
     
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  18. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    The thing which ought to strike you about the Jews of Jesus' day was their
    fanatical devotion to the law of Moses. Jesus made it clear, like the prophets
    before him, that this devotion will not save them. Nor will it save you.

    In the New Covenant we must live under the grace, command and example
    of Jesus. And He made it quite clear the old commandments will not save you.
    They won't save you now, either.
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    We have no idea what day was the Sabbath even back in Abraham's day.
     
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. Your confusing the rest we have in believing and following God's Word with entering into God's rest which is defined in HEBREWS 4:1-5 as God's seventh day Sabbath and trying to read into the scriptures something that is not there. Proof of this is the scripture context provided in HEBREWS 4:1-5.

    HEBREWS 4:1-5
    [1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
    [4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
    [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

    NOTE
    : CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST!

    You simply try to claim JESUS is the Sabbath but God's Word defines the Sabbath as the "seventh day" of the creation week *HEBREWS 4:1-5; GENESIS 2:1-3; MATTHEW 12:8. You have no scripture that says JESUS is the Sabbath. Try substituting Sabbath day with JESUS and see how many scripture verses in the bible that talk about God's 4th commandment Sabbath make any sense?
    What questions would those be perhaps I missed them or if I responded to them perhaps you did not like the answers provided from the scriptures? Please do not presume things that you do not know. Perhaps I should ask you why you have not ignored all scripture content to all the posts provided to you that show why you are in error or why you are not able to address the OP here which is asking for a single scripture that proves Sunday is "THE LORDS DAY"? I did not and I do not mind and happy to discuss Gods Word. It seems though your claims here though should be directed to yourself.
    MATTHEW 5:17 means that JESUS fulfilled all things written or him in the law and the prophets in order to fulfill all righteousness *Matthew 3:15 so that JESUS becomes our perfect sacrifice for sin *1 John 1:9; Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8. The first covenant did not start however until after the resurrection of JESUS. In the NEW COVENANT Gods' LAW (10 Commandments) have the same role they always had and that is to give us the KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to God's Word in the new covenant if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

    God's 4th commandment in the new covenant is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and just like every one of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

    According to God's Word in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth calls all man everywhere to believe and follow his Word *Acts 17:30-31. After we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word we sin willfully in known unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come because all those who continue in known unrepentant sin depart the faith and reject the gift of Gods dear son and count the blood of the covenant and unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of grace *Hebrews 10:26-39.

    It seems you do not know the difference between the Old Covenant and shadow laws from the Mosiac book of the old covenant *Exodus 24:7 and God's eternal LAW (10 commandments) written on stone by the finger of God to be written on the heart to love in the new covenant to God's ISRAEL who are all those who believe and follow God's Word *Hebrews 8:10-12.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.

    God's Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear do not follow.
     
    #160 3rdAngel, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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