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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Hi 3rd Angel,

    We are not under the OT any longer. Of course that doesn't mean that some commands aren't carried over into the new covenant. We still can't murder or commit adultery, etc. And even some of those commands have been tightened up - such as whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    Colossians 2:14-16 Lets us know he blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us - nailing it to his cross. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath.

    But the Sabbath that remaineth for God's people is that eternal day of rest that is coming. Hebrews 4:9-11
     
    #761 TrueBeliever37, Apr 4, 2020
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  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    As you know, I do not accept your interpretation of Genesis 2:1-3. This passage is not about the sanctification of man's seventh day, but God's seventh day. I do not believe that the Sabbath was kept by Abel, Noah or Abraham. I believe that man's weekly Sabbath only came into force with the covenant of law at Mount Sinai.

    When Jesus says that the 'sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:' [Mark 2:27] I do not understand this to be a reference to all mankind, but to those men to whom the sabbath was intended i.e. the house of Israel (not Gentiles). Let's not forget that the law was brought in because of transgressions. So man's weekly sabbath was made for man [Israel] in his transgressions, ensuring that he ceases work every seventh day and rests. Attached to this commandment is a curse, for disobedience, and a blessing, for obedience.

    When Jesus goes further [Mark 2:28], and says that 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath' we see that Jesus is greater than the sabbath, and greater than the written law. This alone should make it clear that it is better to be resting in Christ at all times, than resting, according to the letter of the law, only on the seventh day of each week.

    Once again, I refer you to Martin Luther, who quite correctly says, 'The false apostles taught this doctrine: Except thou live to the law, thou art dead to God; but Paul saith quite contrary: Except thou be dead to the law, thou canst not live to God.....to live to the law is, in truth, nothing else than to die to God; and to die to the law is nothing else than to live to God.'
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi TB nice to meet you and welcome here. True, no one said we are under the old covenant any more. The new testament scriptures however do not delete the old testament scriptures. Everything we have in the new testament scriptures comes from the old testament scriptures. In the days of JESUS and the Apostles their bible was the old testament. Together both the old and new testament scriptures make up the two great witnesses that point to JESUS and God's plan of salvation for mankind and JESUS says we are to live by every word of it *MATTHEW 4:4

    According to JESUS he did not come to abolish God's LAW's but to fulfill them. Till heaven and earth pass not one jot or tittle is to pass from God's LAW and those teaching against this are those called least in God's kingdom (the least are those not going there) *MATTHEW 5:17-19.

    According to MATTHEW 5, JESUS came to magnify the LAW from the INSIDE OUT quoting MATTHEW 5:17-32 (thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *ISAIAH 42:21. This is to show that unless our RIGHTOUESNESS EXCEEDS the RIGHTOUESNESS of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. EVIL begins in the HEART. BREAKING GOD's 10 COMMANDMENTS from the heart defile a man *MATTHEW 15:18-19. JESUS is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *MATTHEW 23:27-28. JESUS magnified the LAW to the INSIDE OUT. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and that sin originates in the HEART (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have the NEW COVENANT promise and need to be BORN AGAIN by Faith in God's WORD for salvation to be free from SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *HEBREWS 8:10-12; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

    If we are not BORN AGAIN into the NEW COVENANT promise and continue in it we will not enter the kingdom of Heaven *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

    RIGHTESOUSNESS comes from LOVE because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW and the very expression of what LOVE is *ROMANS 13:8-10. He that does not LOVE does not KNOW GOD for GOD IS LOVE * 1 JOHN 4:8. All those who are BORN AGAIN have a NEW HEART TO LOVE and FOLLOW GOD *1 JOHN 4:7. This is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are BORN AGAIN do not practice SIN (breaking God's Commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4-9. This is why JOHN finishes on this subject by saying; For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous *1 JOHN 5:3 and is why JESUS says IF you LOVE me KEEP my commandments *JOHN 14:15. UNLESS we are BORN AGAIN under the NEW COVENANT to LOVE we will not enter the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7. We need to be changed from the INSIDE OUT.

    ALL those who KNOWINGLY break any one of God's 10 commandments stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. All those who KNOWINGLY CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into God's KINGDOM *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

    God's 4th Commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is. There is no such thing as the 9 commandments in God's WORD. The same as there is no scripure that says God's 4th commandment is Abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day.

    Hope this is helpful. Lets look at your other scriptures in the next posts
     
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    TB I believe a lot of Sunday keeing Churches try and cherry pick these scriptures to try and teach those who only surface read their bibles that the Sabbath is a shadow law. I am happy to discuss this with you in detail if you like as I believe through God's help you will see that these scriptures have nothing to do with God's 10 commandments or God's 4th commandment Sabbath. Before we start however, did you know that there are many different types of sabbaths in the old tertament scriptures that are not God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath but ceremonial sabbaths that can fall on any day of the week?

    For example the different kinds of sabbaths listed in the old testament include...

    1. The Sabbaths of the Feast of unleavened bread (first and last day) that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:6-8
    2. The Sabbath on the annual day of Atonement that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:27-32
    3. The Sabbath on the annual Feast of Trumpets that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:24-25?
    4. The Sabbath on the Feast of Booths that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:34-36
    5. Feast of first fruits (first and last day) that can fall on any day of the week *LEVITICUS 23:39
    6. The sabbaths (sabbaton plural) of holy convocations from the annual feast days *LEVITICUS 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36 that can fall on any days of the week
    7. The Sabbath of the land (7 year single cycle) *LEVITICUS 25:2
    8. The Sabbath of Jubilee - culminating of the 7x7 yearly cycles sabbaths *LEVITICUS 25:9-54
    9. Or God's 4th commandment seventh day weekly Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandments that define sin when broken? *EXODUS 20:8-11 from GENESIS 2:1-3

    If your interested in a detailed look at the scriptures in relation to COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 looking at the within chapter and scripture context and also what Paul is referring to from the old testament scriptures I am happy to discuss this with you here and if you are interested now here is a link to a thread I have made that discusses this very topic in this forum 1. here linked; 2. here linked; 3. here linked; 4. here linked and 5. here linked.

    You will find if you study the scriptures provided in those link COLOSSIANS 2:14-17 has nothing to do with God's 4th commandment. The above is only the beginning I believe the this can also be proven in GENESIS which I am also happy to discuss with you just let me know.

    Let me know if you wish to discuss this further and thanks for sharing your thoughts.
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The Sabbath that remains is the rest that all God's people enter into who believe the Gospel and that rest is God's rest which is defined in HEBREWS 4:1-5 which is the context of HEBREWS 4:9-11 which is defined as God's seventh day Sabbath of creation.

    The CONTEXT here is HEBREWS 4:1-5 which is discussing GOD'S REST defined as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH with reference back to GENENSIS 2:1-3. That is the REST we are to enter into. Those that did not enter into GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) did not enter into God's REST because of SIN and UNBELIEF in the gosple of God's WORD.

    HEBREWS 4:1-11
    [1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST: ALTHOUGH THE WORKS WERE FINISHED FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
    [4], FOR HE SPOKE IN A CERTAIN PLACE (GENSIS 2:1-3) OF THE SEVENTH DAY ON THIS WISE, AND GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS.
    [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into MY REST.

    NOTE
    : CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST! Let's continue...

    6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    [7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    [8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

    Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “There remains therefore a SABBATH rest to the people of God.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismos means “a keeping of the Sabbath (noun).” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.” Sabbatizo is the verb form of sabbatismos

    [10], For he that is entered into HIS REST (v9 God's SABBATH REST), he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.[11], LET US LABOR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST (God's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST), lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (HEBREWS 3).

    .............

    CONCLUSION
    : HEBREWS 4 is talking about the Gospel rest of BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD; v29 Learn of me; v30 my burden (doing) is light. This agrees with Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. HEBREWS 4:1-11 is in reference to GOD'S REST which God's WORD defines is the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is the CONTEXT shown in HEBREWS 4:1-5. HEBREWS 4 therefore with context added is saying that no one enter God's Sabbath rest if they do not BELIEVE AND FOLLOW God's WORD.

    .............

    GREEK INTERLINEAR
    HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath rest) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

    STRONGS LEXICON
    So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive. there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ () Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people. of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

    STRONGS CONCORDENCE
    sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

    ENGLISHMAN'S CONCORDANCE
    Hebrews 4:9 N-NMS GRK: ἄρα ἀπολείπεται σαββατισμὸς τῷ λαῷ NAS: there remains a Sabbath rest for the people KJV: therefore a rest to the people INT: Then remains a sabbath rest to the people

    HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

    God bless
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, yet you simply choose to ignore the scriptures shared with you proving that God's SABBATH was made for mankind before there was any JEW or any ISRAEL on the seventh day of the creation week.

    GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

    NOTE: The reason for the Sabbath Commandment is to REMEMBER the God of creation. HE RESTED IS GOD'S REST (verb) which God's WORD says is the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK WHICH IS CALLED SABBATH (noun), BLESSED the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK and made it a HOLY DAY that no work is to be done. v11 Refers back to Genesis 2:1-3 and the origin of the Sabbath which is the SEVENTH DAY. v8 shows that this commandment is a MEMORIAL of creation v11 [the reason for the 4th commandment]. It is very clear as we look through the scriptures and let the scriptures interpret themselves that GOD MADE THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH FOR MANKIND. It is also one of the 10 Commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of SIN when broken.

    MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the sabbath:[28], so that the Son of man is LORD OF THE SABBATH (creator).

    The GREEK word highlighted here for MAN in MARK 2:27 is ἄνθρωπος; anthrōpos (G444) which means HUMAN BEING or mankind.

    There was no JEW or ISRAEL or MOSES when the Sabbath was made for all mankind. Your repsonse is to simply ignore scriptures which are God's Word's not my words with your words that are not God's Word but your words. For me I choose to believe and follow God's Word that are not mine but his so we will have to agree to disagree.

    Of course because I believe you choose not to believe God's Word and choose to follow man made teachings and traditions that JESUS warned us about in MATTHEW 15:2-9. To me I believe simply what the scriptures teach.

    MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the sabbath:[28], so that the Son of man is LORD OF THE SABBATH (creator).

    The GREEK word underlined here for MAN in MARK 2:27 is ἄνθρωπος; anthrōpos (G444) which means HUMAN BEING or mankind.

    Yep God's Word is not saying what you are trying to say. There was no JEW and no ISRAEL when God created the Sabbath for all mankind *GENESIS 2:1-3 on the seventh day of creation.

    Indeed, no one is telling you to rest in the letter of the law but no one is resting in Christ by breaking God's LAW. Those who do so according to the scriptures do not know God *1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 7:13-27.

    Indeed no one is telling you to live to the law or that salvation is from the law. Through the law is the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9). There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

    In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

    May you receive Gods Word and be blessed. Igorning it does not make it disappear.
     
  7. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    If it means what you say, then why would he say what he did in verse 1? Let us fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Hebrews 4:1
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe it says exactly what the scriptures say as provided in the post you are quoting from as they are God's Words not mine TB. HEBREWS 4:1 is referring to HEBREWS 3 (there are no chapter breaks in the Greek manuscripts) it's a continous read. God's people did not enter into God's Sabbath rest because of their unbelief in God's Word and their sins.

    HEBREWS 3
    8, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    9, When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
    10, Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
    11,
    So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into MY REST (Sabbath see HEBREWS 4:1-5).
    12, Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God.
    13, But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the DECEITFULNESS OF SIN.
    14, For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end;
    15, While it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
    16, For some, when they had heard, did provoke: however, not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    17, But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
    18, And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    19, So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    ..............

    KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 3
    v8-10 God's people in the winderness erred and hardened their hearts not knowing God's ways
    v11 Because they hardened their hearts not knowing God's way God was angry and did not let them enter HIS REST
    v13
    Hardness of heart comes from the deceitfulness of SIN (breaking God's LAW)
    v19 God's people did not enter into God's REST because of UNBELIEF

    Hebrews 3 links to the testimony of Ezekiel of God’s people not entering God’s Sabbath rest..

    EZEKIEL 20:10-13 [10], Why I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt and BROGHT THEM INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11], And I gave them my statutes, and showed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. [12], Moreover ALSO I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THEM THAT THEY MAY KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM. [13], But THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL REBELLED AGAINST ME IN THE WILDERNESS: THEY WALKED NOT IN MY STATUTES AND DISPISED MY JUDGMENTS WHICH IF A MAN DO THEY SHALL LIVE IN THEM AND MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLUTED: then I said, I would pour out my fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them..

    ..............

    GOD'S REST IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

    HEBREWS 4
    [1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
    [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
    [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

    KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:1-5

    NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD enter into that rest which God's WORD defines as the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is GOD'S REST!

    HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

    Hope this helps
     
    #768 3rdAngel, Apr 4, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  9. GardenLady

    GardenLady Active Member

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    I hope I am not violating the rules by reposting something I posted in another thread, with modification.

    My denomination of origin and my current denomination think of Sunday as the Lords' Day, that is, the day of the resurrection. However one defines and whenever one celebrates, the point is to set aside time for devotion and worship; something we really should do every day. Legalism about which days doesn't seem to me to be the point at all.

    I'm not a calendar expert and don't know what calendar was used in the first century or the 4th. The West has been through the Julian and Gregorian calendars. And there are the Hebrew, Coptic, Ethiopian, and other calendars. And then there is that Leap Year thing, adding a day and shifting the days by one.

    As the song says, "Does anybody really know what time it is?"
     
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  10. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Why would God swear in his wrath that they would NOT enter into his rest? (According to you "his rest" is referring to a commandment that he wanted them to keep.) Hebrews 3:18-19 The way you are applying it just doesn't make sense.

    And why should we have to fear, lest we fall short of a promise being left us of entering into his rest?
     
    #770 TrueBeliever37, Apr 5, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
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  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Hi TB welcome back and nice to see you again. Sure it makes sense. The scriptures posted and the sections in red highlight word for word, I believe say that they did not enter into God's rest (the Sabbath (HEBREWS 4:1-5) because of SIN AND UNBELIEF. This was highlighted in the post you are quoting from. SIN and UNBELIEF in God's Word *HEBREWS 3:11-13; HEBREWS 3:19; HEBREWS 4:1-2. This is the context of HEBREWS 4 (there are no chapters in the Hebrew or Greek manuscripts). Sin and Unbelief being the problem of the children in the wilderness was also shown in EZEKIEL 20:10-13. Sin (breaking God's LAW) and unbelief (not believing God's Word) was the reason we do not enter into Gods' rest.
     
  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Helloe GL nice to meet you and welcome here. I do not think (that I know) you are breaking any rules here if what your posting is relevant to the OP. Anywhy I would not report you for showing your view here :)

    I believe this OP shows through the scriptures that "THE LORDS DAY" has nothing to do with the reusrrection of JESUS and is referring to God's 4th commandment Sabbath which according to the scriptures is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20. Did you have a chance to read the OP? I believe according to the scriptures if we break it just like any other one of God's commandments we stand guilty before God of sin which the bible says is breaking God's LAW which is SIN *1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11. I believe according to the scriptures all those who practice known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God and count the blood of the conenant an unholy thing because by rejecting God's Word there is no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39.

    I believe God has His people in every Church *JOHN 10:16 living up to all the knowledge that God has revealed to them. The hour is coming and now is however that the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people wherever they may be out from following man made traditions and teachings back to the pure Word of God *MATTHEW 15:2-9; REVELATION 18:1-5. Sin will keep all you practice it out of God's kingdom. Who will hear the call to go out and meet the bridgegroom? There is no legalism to love God and keep his commandments if you have been granted Gods' forgivness, seen his love and are free to walk in his Spirit to love. Do you love JESUS GL?
    None of which effect God's "seventh day" 4th commandment Sabbath. It has been kept unbroken since JESUS to this very present day.
    Hope this is helpful and may you receive God's Word and be blessed.
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I would like you to read YOUR sentence again very carefully, because it demonstrates exactly what Martin Luther is saying.

    I'll break in down into component parts.

    Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved. [TRUE! SALVATION IS OF GOD, IN CHRIST]

    Obedience to God's law is the fruit of God's work in us. [NOT EXACTLY. THE FRUIT OF GOD'S WORK IN US IS GALATIANS 5:22,23 ]

    Obedience to God's law only happens as we believe and follow his Word by faith that works by love. [NOT CLEAR. Whose love are you talking about? If this is your love, then it is not a fruit of the Spirit. We follow Christ (the living Word of God) and it is HIS SPIRIT that is perfectly obedient to the law. Any attempt to do the law by our own love is not of God. Our faith is IN CHRIST, that His righteousness might be manifest in us.

    This is what Paul says to the Philippians [3:9], 'And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:'

    Man's righteousness is of the law, whereas walking by the Spirit is walking in the righteousness of God.

    When Paul told the Philippians [3:5-7] about himself he said, 'Circumcised on the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.'

    Paul was blameless in the doing of the letter of the law. Yet, he sees this DOING OF THE LAW as his own righteousness! It has nothing to do with Christ's SPIRIT which is the PERFECTING [fulfilment] of the law!

    The questions I now ask are , Are you dead to the law? [Romans 7:4; Galatians 2:19] If so, how then can you be obedient to the law?
     
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Dear friend, you only part quoting me here I believe does not really help the conversation. I believe what I posted earlier is supported by the scriptures and the completed statement in context was in relation to you posting strawman arguments no one has said or believes. I posted that no one is telling you to live to the law or that salvation is from the law. Through the law is the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. We are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9). There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day. Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

    In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

    May you receive Gods Word and be blessed. Igorning it does not make it disappear.
    Not really dear friend. I believe it is exactly the fruit of God's Spirit as the greatest of these is LOVE. As posted earlier in the scriptures shared with you, it is LOVE that fulfills God's LAW in all those who believe and follow Gods' WORD. You cannot separate LOVE and LAW in salvation by faith as LOVE is expressed as the fruit of obedience to Gods' LAW. Love is not expressed by breaking God's LAW. If you love your neighbore as your self you will not go out and steal from them, or commit adultery with their husband or wife. This is what JESUS is teaching in MATTHEW 22:36-40; PAUL in ROMANS 13:8-10 and JAMES in JAMES 2:8-12.
    Once again mute point as this post has nothing to do with anything I have shared with you here. No one is telling you to get your righteousness from the law. This only demonstrates your not reading the posts and scriptures shared with you.
    I believe you are confused here and do not understand these scriptures as you make Paul to contradict what he says about the law elsewhere. Paul does not say here that we are not to obey Gods' LAW I believe he is teaching that we do not get our righteousness or salvation from the law but through Christ and it is only by love to God that God's LAW is established. Your inerpretation of the scriptures here contradicts what Paul says in *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATAINS 5:16; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:19; ROMANS 2:13-16; ROMANS 8:6-8; HEBREWS 8:10; ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 7:12; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; GALATIANS 3:22-25; ROMANS 6:1-23; HEBREWS 10:26-39 and elsewhere.
    My answer is yes but this is in reference to the law of sin and death which is not referring to God's 10 commandments but the sinful human nature in order to be married to another (Christ through the Spirit) *ROMANS 7:1-5; ROMANS 8:1-4. I do not believe that these scriptures teach that God's LAW has been abolished as you are teaching as that interpretation would simply deny the very words of JESUS and pretty much all the bible. It also contradicts the very words of what Paul is teaching elswhere as shown above. For example, in ROMANS 3:20 and ROMANS 7:7 Paul says that God's LAW gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. If you have no knowledge of what sin is you do not know you are a sinner. If you do not know you are a sinner you have no need of a Saviour from your sins. If you have no saviour you have no salvation from your sins and will die in them. Can you see where your interpretation of the scriptures is heading dear brother?As it is written in Pauls own words "he that has not the law will perish without the law"

    Hope this is helpful
     
    #774 3rdAngel, Apr 5, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. It appears that the commandment reads "six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD". There are few churches or communities which change the calendar such that Sunday falls on the 7th day of the week, but most gladly acknowledge that it is the first day of the week. As for recent western calendars, they didn't change the 7 day week, and they were changed by the Pontifex Maximus, Julius Caesar, and the Pontifex Maximus pope Gregory. Keep in mind that the position of Pontifex Maximus was originally the position of the pagan high priests, who kept the gods and calendar. As for Sunday, the "day of the sun" that day of rest was decreed by the beast with two horns like a lamb, Constantine in 321 AD for the glory of his sun god, Sol Invictus. As for "Christ" rising on Sunday, well that is another Christian myth. Preparation day, the day of the last supper, the day before the high holy Sabbath of the feast of Unleavened Bread happened on the 14th of Nissan, which was on a Wednesday. Three days and 3 nights after the eve of the high holy Sabbath of Unleavened Bread, on the end of the weekly Sabbath, Mary found the tomb empty (Matthew 28:1). Keep in mind that the Jewish day ends in the evening, and the next day starts/dawns in the evening of the previous day. The false prophet Paul and the minions of his church have introduced confusion/babble/babel into his daughter church of Babylon. One probably should strive not to have a mark or sign of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10)

    KJB Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    So in other words I believe you believe in worshiping Moses instead of worshiping the living God.
     
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No not at all dear friend. I believe what is being shared here through the scriptures is that if you do not believe and follow Gods' Word your not folllowing God but man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God that JESUS warns us about in MATTHEW 15:2-9 because JESUS also says in JOHN 10:26-27 You believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow Him. Those who do not hear do not follow because they do not know him.
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 2:19. 'For I through the law ['nomos'] am dead to the law ['nomos'], that I might live unto God.'

    If you are dead to the law [Greek 'nomos', equivalent to Hebrew 'torah'], this must also apply to the Ten Commandments 'for by the law ['nomos'] is the knowledge of sin' [Romans 3:20]

    Your attempt to change the meaning of the word 'law' does not help you here. 'Nomos' clearly refers to the whole law, including the Ten Commandments. This means that you are still married to your first husband, yet wed to your second!

    The Spirit of Christ supersedes the letter of the law. This includes all Ten Commandments, which are fulfilled in one word - LOVE.

    It is wrong, thereafter, to claim that the Law and the Prophets hang on love, and should be followed as a consequence. The Law and the Prophets are summarized by love.

    But then we need to ask, Whose love fulfils the law? Is it my love? Certainly not. The only love that can fulfil the law is God's love.

    Hence Galatians 2:19. 'For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.'
     
  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Where I believe your post falls down is that it does not mean what you are saying it means. Why do I say this?

    The GREEK words used for law nomos and other words such as etole are in general reference to the law as is the Hebrew word Torah but it does not determine what laws are being discussed. In the Hebrew and Greek word definitions are defined within the subject matter applied to scripture and chapter context. Unlike our English language this is how word meanings and definitions are identified in both the Hebrew and Greek language.

    We cannot simpy cheery pick the scriptures in isolation of subject matter and context that determines word definition and appliation.

    So what laws are being discussed in GALATIANS 2 is it God's 10 Commandments? Let's look and see...

    There are many types of laws in the old and new testament scriptures. What defines definition is application to subject matter. Greek and Hebrew Word meanings are defined by the context and application to which these words are used.

    For example in this case you quote GALATIANS 2:19 trying to teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished when the scripture and context says no such thing. The subject matter and context is defined in the very chapter and context you ignore in GALATIANS 2:2-18 which is talking about the MOSAIC laws of "CIRCUMCISION" and seeking God's salvation through the works of the law instead of faith.

    The subject matter that defines word application here proves that your interpretation of GALATIANS 2:19 being to God's 10 commandments is a false interpretation of the scriptures that you are trying to read into the scriptures that are not in the scriptures.

    "CIRCUMCISION" is from the laws in ordinances from the MOSIAC ceremonial shadow laws that are fulfilled in Christ. Not God' eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when they are broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11.

    I have not applied anything here in this OP to circumcision or being saved by the works of the law so your scripture references are irrelevant to the conversation here and I believe only shows you do not understand the scriptures you are pulling out of context to the subject matter being discussed in GALATIANS 2:19. Context matters.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #779 3rdAngel, Apr 6, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  20. TrueBeliever37

    TrueBeliever37 Well-Known Member

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    Hi 3rdAngel,
    Sin and Unbelief was the reason he swore to them they would NOT enter into his rest.

    Again I ask you, How does it make any sense, for him to swear to them that they cannot keep a commandment that he wants them to keep?
     
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