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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your resoponse...
    Ok let's examine the evidence and see if your claims are true or not...
    There is no chapters in the Greek manuscript of Romans or the other books of the bible. These was added by the translators later.Let's look at the detail as you are leaving out the complete context from ROMANS 3:9-31 showing that the topic of conversation is SIN which is defined in God's LAW as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 and that both JEW and GENTILE are all under sin.

    ROMANS 3:9-31
    [9], What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for WE HAVE BEFORE PROVED BOTH JEWS AND GENTILES, THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN;
    [10], As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE:
    [11], THERE IS NONE THAT UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKS AFTER GOD.
    [12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; THERE IS NONE THAT DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE.
    [13], Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
    [14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    [15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
    [16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    [17], And the way of peace have they not known:
    [18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.

    Note: Both JEWS and GENTILES are all guilty before God "under the law" *ROMANS 3:19 because they are all under sin (v9) and there is none that are righteouss (v10) and none that does good no not one and none seek after God (v11-19)

    [19], NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAID, IT SAID TO THEM WHO ARE UNDER THE LAW: THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

    Note: Previous context is that both JEW and GENTILE are all "under sin" none are righteouss and none do good or seek after God (v9-12). Now in v19 because all are "under sin" and there is none righteouss or none that do good we can know that the scriptures being discussed in reference to "THE LAW" is in reference to God's 10 commandments. Why? Because according to PAUL it is the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is as shown in ROMANS 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I HAD NOT KNOWN SIN BUT ZBY THE LAW FOR I HAS NOT KNOWN LUST EXCEPT THAT THE LAW SAID THOU SHALT NOT COVET. This is also repeated here in v20 in the next verse here...

    [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

    Note: According the new testament scriptures, sin is defined as the transgression of God's LAW *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4. God's 10 commandments have the same role they always have in the new covenant and that is to give us the knowledge of GOOD (see ROMANS 3:12) and EVIL; SIN (see ROMANS 3:9) and RIGHTEOUSNESS (see PSALMS 119:172 standard of righteousness). It is God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of sin when broken and the knowledge of the standard of righteoussness and good to be followed through faith *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 PSALMS 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand "under the law" *ROMANS 3:19 guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

    [21], BUT NOW THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WITHOUT THE LAW IS MANIFESTED, BEING WITNESSED BY THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS;
    [22], EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST TO ALL AND ON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:
    [23], FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD;
    [24], BEING JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE THROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS:
    [25], Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    [26], TO DECLARE, I SAY, AT THIS TIME HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS: THAT HE MIGHT BE JUST, AND THE JUSTIFIER OF HIM WHICH BELIEVES IN JESUS.
    [27], WHERE IS BOASTING THEN? IT IS EXCLUDED. BY WHAT LAW? OF WORKS? NO: BUT BY THE LAW OF FAITH.
    [28], Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    [29], Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    [30], Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

    Note: Because we have all sinned (broken God's LAW or 10 commandments) the righteousness of God without the law is manifest in JESUS through faith.

    [31], DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

    Note: After the revelation of righteousness by faith in the blood of JESUS, PAUL is now stating that faith does not abolish God's LAW (10 commandments) it ESTABLISHES God's 10 commandments.

    ................

    CONCLUSION: You have ignored the scripture context which is "ALL ARE UNDER SIN AND STAND GUILTY BEFORE GOD, UNDER THE LAW, CONDEMNED BY THE LAW and that this LAW is in reference to God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7. Sorry my friend but I believe the evidence shown in the context of these scriptures show it is you who is misusing scripture. This only proves it is your argument that has fallen down not mine.

    Hope this helps.


    to be continued...
     
    #741 3rdAngel, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. I believe you have come up with a faulty conclusion again by trying to make a strawman arguments to both of these scriptures that no one is making by not reading what has been posted to you and part quoting me and triyng to make arguements no one is making. Please stop doing this as it is dishonest.

    What I posted that you left out is this....

    There is only one standard of righteousness in God's Word *PSALMS 119:172 and it is the one that gives us the knowledge of Good and Evil; Sin and Righteousness *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7 1 JOHN 3:4 and PSALMS 119:172. According to the scritpures if we break any one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God sin *JAMES 2:10-11. The Hebrew word for "righteousness" is H6666 צדקה; tsedâqâh From H6663; rightness (abstractly), subjectively (rectitude), objectively (justice), morally (virtue) or figuratively (prosperity): - justice, moderately, right (-eous) (act, -ly, -ness). It means doing what is right morally. The Greek word is G1343 δικαιοσύνη; dikaiosunē From G1342; equity of character or act; specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness. Here it means both justification and right doing. So the thoughts expressed here is to be justified to do what is right morally.

    Then we get these scriptures after justification...

    GALATIANS 5:16 WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH (Doing what is right morally)
    ROMANS 8:4 THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT

    Now where the righteousness of the law is fulfilled. It is fulfilled in us in fulfillment of the new covenant promise here..

    HEBREWS 8:10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, said the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THE MINDS AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people

    These scriptures complement ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10 and JAMES 2:8-12 (please read them as they are God's new covenant promise of a new heart to love)

    Now the question I want to ask you after seeing that the meaning of righteousness in the Hebrew means "right doing" or in the Greek "being justified for right doing" what is it that we are to do right? Here is the answer here in PSALMS

    PSALMS 119:172 My tongue shall speak of your word for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    God's 10 commandments are the very standard of all right doing or RIGHTEOUSNESS. In order to do right we need to be born again and receive a new heart to love and it is the very well springs of love that fulfills the law in those who believe and follow God's Word. This is God's Work in all those who walk in His Spirit. Now can you see that if we are breaking any of God's laws (10 commandments) we are either not showing love to God or man and not walking in God's Spirit practicing righteoussness?

    ..............

    CONCLUSION: You are part quoting me and making strawman arguments no one is making so your claims are not true as no one has made the claims you are making. Furthermore, the scriptures above are evidence that it is you who is misusing the scriptures.

    ..............

    FINAL CONCLUSION: I believe every one of your claims have been either shown through the scriptures that they are not true and you are making strawman arguments that no one is arguing about and that the evidence provided in the scriptures show it is you who is misusing the scriptures.

    I will comment on this last section of yours as well as I believe it is another false conclusion that is not biblical. There is not one scripture that says we as christians are now free to break any one of God's 10 Commandments. It is very clear through the scriptures from JESUS and the APOSTLES and all the new testament teaches that God's LAW is fulfilled in the new covenant to love and is written on the heat by walking in God's Spirit *HEBREWS 8:10-12; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10; JAMES 2:8-12. As posted earlier we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

    I believe according to the scriptures that SIN (breaking any one of God's 10 commandment) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. Those who practice sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments or not believing and following God's Word) according to the scriptuers are the children of the devil and need to be born again through faith to receive God's Spirit. JESUS says by their fruits you shall know them and is why it is written "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him *1 JOHN 2:3-4.

    Hope this helps
     
    #742 3rdAngel, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Notice, once again, that you make connections that do not exist in the text. Nowhere does it say in Romans 3 that Jews and Gentiles are guilty because they are all 'under the law' [the Ten Commandments].

    You have tried to show, throughout this discussion, that sin is the transgression of the law, by which you mean the Ten Commandments. Sin is transgression of the law, but it has a much wider application that you are prepared to give it. This is why you misinterpret Genesis 26:5, and end up suggesting that Abraham followed the Fourth Commandment. What the passage below shows is that not all people are under the Ten Commandments, or indeed any of the covenant laws made with Moses.

    Here is the proof text.

    Romans 2:13-15.'(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.)

    From this, we can infer that Gentiles, who never kept the Fourth Commandment in the first place, are not suddenly required to start adhering to a religious ordinance that has little meaning within the liberty found in Christ. And I would argue, with Paul, that this applies equally to the Jews who receive Christ as their personal Saviour.
     
    #743 Redemptionsong, Mar 29, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 8:9,10. 'Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:'

    Hebrews 8:9. says, 'Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers', [a reference to the Mosaic covenant, and the Ten Commandments] 'because they continued not in my covenant'.

    This tells us that the new covenant is not the same as the old covenant!! Consequently, verse 10 is not about the written law being written [literally] 'in their hearts'. The law is written in their hearts by LOVE, by the Spirit of grace. This covers both the inward and outward aspects of the moral law, just as Jesus Christ did when he fulfilled the law in righteousness.

    Once again, you have assumed that the righteousness of the law in the New Testament is the written law [the Ten Commandments], when in fact it's CHRIST.
     
    #744 Redemptionsong, Mar 29, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
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  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your response.
    Notice again that you are making claims and accusations that are not true as everything you are quoting from in my post is said word for word in the scriptures and the references in the scriptures where these words are provided are also provided.

    For example where I wrote (underlined)...

    "Both JEWS and GENTILES are all guilty before God "under the law" *ROMANS 3:19 because they are all under sin (v9) and there is none that are righteouss (v10) and none that does good no not one and none seek after God (v11-19)" The supporting scriptures where quoted and found in the very post you are quoting from in written word for word in the scriptures that were provided here...

    ROMANS 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin

    ROMANS 3:10-11 [10], As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.

    ROMANS 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Yep everything in that post is in the scripture quoted. Once again this is simply more evidence that your making false statements and misusing the scriptures and manking claims that are not true.

    I am not trying to do anything. I believe I have only provided Gods' Word and it is Gods Word that says that sin is the transgression of God's LAW not me *1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break any of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. You admit here that sin is the transgression of Gods' LAW in this post. Yet God's 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments and you do not keep it. I suggest you prayerfully read JAMES 2:10-11, ACTS 17:30-31 and compare it to HEBREWS 10:26-27 for your own sake dear friend.

    As posted some time ago we need to be cleaned from the inside out. Unless we are born again to love through faith and walk in newness of life we will not enter into the kinfdom of heaven. If we break one commandment we stand guilty before God of sin. Those who practice sin will not enter into God's Kingdom because all those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God *HERBEWS 10:26-39. Those who practice sin which is defined as breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 and those who do not practice sin (keeping God's Commandments) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 14:12 and REVELATION 22:14.

    Your repeating yourself as this has been addressed in much greater detail throughout the scriptures provided in earlier posts showing that before the written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God showing that all of God's people had God's LAWS before Mt Sinai including the Sabbath which was already known about in EXODUS 16:4-5; EXODUS 16:23-28

    EXODUS 16:4-5 [4], Then said the LORD to Moses, BEHOLD, I WILL RAIN BREAD FROM HEAVEN FOR YOU; AND THE PEOPLE SHALL GO OUT AND GATHER A CERTAIN RATE EVERY DAY, THAT I MAY PROVE THEM, WHETHER THEY WILL WALK IN MY LAW, OR NO. [5], AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT ON THE SIXTH DAY THEY SHALL PREPARE THAT WHICH THEY BRING IN; AND IT SHALL BE TWICE AS MUCH AS THEY GATHER DAILY.

    NOTE: This is in reference to God’s Sabbath law as the preparation day is the sixth day where God provides twice as much food and shown further in…

    EXODUS 16:23-28 [23], And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, TO MORROW IS THE REST OF THE HOLY SABBATH TO THE LORD: BAKE THAT WHICH YOU WILL BAKE TO DAY, AND SEETHE THAT YOU WILL SEETHE; AND THAT WHICH REMAINS OVER LAY UP FOR YOU TO BE KEPT UNTIL THE MORNING. [24], AND THEY LAID IT UP TILL THE MORNING, AS MOSES BADE: AND IT DID NOT STINK, NEITHER WAS THERE ANY WORM THEREIN. [25], AND MOSES SAID, EAT THAT TO DAY; FOR TO DAY IS A SABBATH TO THE LORD: TO DAY YOU SHALL NOT FIND IT IN THE FIELD. [26], SIX DAYS YOU SHALL GATHER IT; BUT ON THE SEVENTH DAY, WHICH IS THE SABBATH, IN IT THERE SHALL BE NONE.
    [27], And IT CAME TO PASS, THAT THERE WENT OUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THE SEVENTH DAY FOR TO GATHER, AND THEY FOUND NONE. [28], And the LORD said to Moses, HOW LONG REFUSE YOU TO KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS?

    These scriptures link in very nicely with GENESIS 26:5

    GENESIS 25:5 [5], Because that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS.

    There is no misinterpretation of GENESIS 26:5. As shown through the scriptures you cannot prove that Abraham did not keep God's law or God's 4th commandment that was given to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden through the spoken Word of God and made at creation *GENESIS 2:1-3; MARK 2:27. Yet it is God's Word not mine that says...

    GENESIS 25:5 [5], Because that ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE AND KEPT MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS AND MY LAWS.

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - LAWS H8451 תּורה תּרה; tôrâh tôrâh From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

    I simply believe God's Word you. It seems you choose not to.

    Once again your "inference" as you admit to here in this section of your post is something you are reading into the scriptures that the scriptures do not say or do not teach therefore is not biblical but you simply trying to read into the scriptures something that is not there. This is simply you admitting to mishandling of the scriptures and reading into the scriptures something that is not in the scriptures.

    For me I see nothing in the claims you have made in relation to ROMANS 2:13-15 as your ignoring context again which says this..

    ROMANS 2:11-16
    [11], FOR THERE IS NO RESPECT OF PERSONS WITH GOD.
    [12], FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT LAW SHALL ALSO PERISH WITHOUT LAW: AND AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW;
    [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.
    [14], FOR WHEN THE GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, THESE, HAVING NOT THE LAW, ARE A LAW TO THEMSELVES:
    [15], WHICH SHOW THE WORK OF THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
    [16], In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

    For me I simply read the scriptures as the scriptures say as there is no need for any inference or reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not teach or say. The key point of these scriptures is that the Gentiles were DOING WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES FROM THE HEART.

    Pauls is saying as many as sinned without the law shall perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law and not the hearers of the law being just before God but the doers of the law being justified *ROMANS 2:12-13 is the context of ROMANS 2:14-16 and ROMANS 2:14-16 does not delete the context which is ROMANS 2:12-13 it supports what Paul is saying that God's LAW is to be written in the heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10 and there is no respect of persons with God wheather JEW or GENTILE *ROMANS 2:11.

    PAULS references in ROMANS 2:14 is simplt demonstrating that the GENTILES were not given God's 10 commandments and the JEWS were but the Gentiles who were obeying God's LAW from the heart were keeping them and the JEWS who who were given God's LAW from the letter were not. There is no inference in what is shared with you here dear friend as everything I have shared here is in the scriptures and context provided that you have left out and read into the scriptures that are not there. Paul says no where that Gentiles are not to keep God's 10 commandment or Sabbath in ROMANS 2:11-16. In fact he is teaching the opposite. I believe you are misusing the sciptures you provide that are not saying what you claim.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #745 3rdAngel, Mar 29, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe from this post you are confused and do not understand what the old covenant is and what the new covenant is. Happy to discuss it with you if you like. In the new covenant there are no more animal sacrifices, sin offerings, Sanctuary service and cermonial laws from the Levitical Priesthood for remission of sins. These MOSAIC laws were "SHADOWS laws OF THINGS TO COME" *COLOSSIANS 2; HEBREWS 10:1-12 from the MOSAIC BOOK of the law *DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 written by Moses in the book of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7.

    The new covenant is not the same as the old as the prophetic type is fulfilled in antitype and the Shadow laws are fulfilled in JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant.

    God's LAW (10 Commandments) are written in the heart THROUGH LOVE *HEBREWS 8:10-12 because LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in the heart in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word *ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 6:1-23; 1 JOHN 3:6-10; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14.

    LOVE is not SEPARATE from God's LAW it fulfills and establishes them and this is why JESUS say "ON THESE TWO GREAT COMMANDMENTS OF LOVE HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. Paul says the same things in ROMANS 13:8-10 as does JAMES in JAMES 2:8-12.

    The choices we make today in not believing God's Word effect our salvation for all eternity. Many are called but few are chosen because the many close their eyes and ears to hearing God's Word when it is the Word of God that becomes our very blessing or curse we should all examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not *2 CORINTHIANS 13:5.

    I am sorry my friend I believe God's Word disagrees with you.
     
    #746 3rdAngel, Mar 29, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    We are both looking to God's Word. The issue is one of understanding, not source!

    Does 1 John 3:4 actually say that sin is the transgression of the Ten Commandments?

    1 John 3:4.'Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.'

    Do you notice that the word 'also' appears in the first part of the sentence? This is because sin is MORE that the transgression of the law. In Romans 15:23 Paul says, 'for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

    Galatians 3:12.'And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.'

    If the law is not of faith, and it's sinful to do anything that is not of faith, then we should walk by faith and not by the law!

    Scripture makes it very clear that the Fourth Commandment is a law. It is not of faith!
     
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really dear friend. I believe you have been proven in error through the scriptures alone in the posts shared with you that show you are simply cherry picking your scriptures taken out of context to subject matter and the overall context to the rest of the bible and that you are reading into the scriptures what they do not say or teach.

    For example you say 1 JOHN 3:4 which says [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Is not talking about God's 10 commandment yet the first three chapters of 1 JOHN are all about sin, confessing sin not practicing sin and the reason why JOHN is writing as it says in 1 JOHN 2:1 is that we SIN not. John goes on to say in [v3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Sin is defined in God's Word as the transgression of God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4 and as Paul says that through breaking God's LAW we receive the knowledge of what SIN is *ROMANS 3:20. Paul makes this very clear that he is talking about God's 10 commandments when he quotes God's 10th commandment *EXODUS 20:17 in ROMANS 7:7.

    JAMES says the same thing in JAMES 2:10-11 [10], For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.

    So if God's Word defines sin as not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23 and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments, why would you claim that 1 JOHN 3:4 which says [4], Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law is saying something that it is not saying?

    I believe your purposely only telling only half the story by cherry picking scripture and ignoring the scriptures you choose not to believe.

    Your confusion continues in Galatians as no one is telling you that we are saved by the law so your making strawman arguments again that no one is talking about. We are only saved only by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not by works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's Word is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith. We are all sinners in need of a Saviour and God's salvation to save us from our sins. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments). Salvation is not that of the false gospel of "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" that teaches we can to continue in sin and still receive God's salvation and his promises *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10.

    So does faith abolish God's 10 commandments?

    ROMANS 3:31 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law. - Nope it establishes God's LAW in those who through faith have been born again to love *JOHN 3:3-7; HEBREWS 8:10; ROMANS 13:8-10; MATTHEW 22:36-40; 1 JOHN 3:6-9

    May you receive Gods Word and be blessed, ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #748 3rdAngel, Mar 30, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    We can both read the scriptures, and we both know that Romans 13:10 states that 'love is the fulfilling of the law'. But it's also clear that we understand this to mean two very different things.

    It's clear that for you the Holy Spirit does not replace the written law as your guide. But for me the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of love, becomes my guide.

    What do you understand this scripture to mean?

    Romans 10:4. 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'
     
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  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Well nothing you have posted here addresses anything in the post and scriptures you are quoting from again. Christ is the end of the law because that is where God's LAW points to and leads us. This does not mean God's LAW (10 commandments) is abolished as that interpretation would have the rest of the bible in the teachings of JESUS and the APOSTLES contradicting themselves.

    For example...

    PAUL who wrote the same scripturs says this about the law which is contradicting your interpretation of ROMANS 10:4..

    1. Paul teaches God's people keep the Sabbath Hebrews 4.
    2. Paul tells gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Corinthians 7:19
    3. Paul tells gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Romans 2:13-16
    4. Paul asks that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Romans 3:31
    5. Paul tells ALL Christians that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:6-8
    6 Paul reaches all Christians under the NEW Covenant that God's LAW as known in Jer 31:31-33 is "written on the heart and mind" Hebrews 8:7-11
    7. Paul tells all Christians that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2 Timothy 3:16
    AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.
    8. Paul tells all Christians that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:1-2 and is binding on all Christians.
    9. God's Law (10 commandments) are holy, just and good (Romans 7:12)
    10. God's Law gives us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; 7:7)
    11. The penalty of breaking God's Law without Jesus is death (Romans 6:23)
    12. If we break God's Law we dishonor God (Romans 2:23)
    13. If we sin we are "under the Law" and guilty before God (Romans 3:19)
    14. We are saved by faith but our faith establishes the Law in us (Romans 3:31)
    15. If we are saved by grace we should not break God's Law (Romans 6:1-7)
    16. We should not break God's Law if we are under grace (Romans 6:15)
    17. We are to serve the Law of God through the mind because that is where sin starts (Romans 6:17; 7:25; 8:4; 12:2)
    18. It is God's Law that brings us to Jesus (Galatians 3:24)
    19. God's salvation frees us from sin so we can be obedient to God's Law and live a life of holiness (Romans 6:22)
    20. We will be judged by God's Law and only those that are obedient will be justified because of their faith (Romans 2:4-13)
    21. God's Law can only be obeyed through love and a changed heart which comes by faith in God's Word (Romans 2:21-29; 13:9-10; Heb 8:9-10)
    22. If we break God's Law and are in unrepentant sin we will be lost and will received God's judgements (Hebrews 10:26-27)

    Now the above examples are only from Paul which contradicts your interpretation of ROMANS 10:4. It is God's LAW that leads us to Christ. That is the meaning of "end". The same view is also expressed by Paul in GALATIANS 3:22-25. If you like I am happy to show you the same from JESUS, JOHN and JAMES which contradicts your interpretation of ROMANS 10:4 just let me know. The above scriptures written by PAUL are not even exhaustive and we have not even started on the scriptures from JESUS, JAMES and JOHN. Does this not concern you? It should. It shows your interpretation of the scriptures are in error or your happy to believe the bible contradicts itself which it does not.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #750 3rdAngel, Mar 31, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    God's Spirit is never given to those who disobey God's LAW as it is written "We are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN TO THOSE WHO OBEY HIM". *ACTS 5:31

    So what it all comes down to is how do we know if we are following God or not following God and who has the truth of Gods' Word and is following it and who does not have the truth of Gods' Word and is not following it. Only God's Word alone can answer this question. So how do we know if we have the truth of God's Word or if we are following lies and deceiving our own selves?

    HOW DO WE KNOW IF WE KNOW GOD AND HAVE THE TRUTH OF HIS WORD?


    1 JOHN 2:3-4 [3], And HEREBY WE DO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.[4], HE THAT SAID, I KNOW HIM, AND KEEPS NOT HIS COMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

    Those who have the truth of God's Word are those who keep God's commandments. Those who say they follow God and do not keep His Commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.

    ...............

    WHAT IS SIN?


    1 JOHN 3:4 [4], WHOEVER COMMITS SIN TRANSGRESSES ALSO THE LAW: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.

    JAMES 2:10-11 [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. Now if you COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

    Sin is breaking any one of God's 10 commandments as well as not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23.

    ...............

    HOW DO WE KNOW THE CHILDREN OF GOD AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL?

    1 JOHN 3:9-10 [9], WHOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT COMMIT SIN; for his seed remains in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD. [10], IN THIS THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE MANIFEST, AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

    Those who are God's children do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) and those who are the children of the devil break God's commandments and practice sin.

    According to the scriptures those who are God's children keep God's Commandments. Those who profess to be God's Children but do not keep God's commandments are liars and the truth is not in them. Here you are teachings not to keep God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments? It is God's Word not mine that says that sin is the transgresison of God's law not me *1 JOHN 3:4. According to the scriptures Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil.

    ...............

    WHO HAS GOD'S SPIRIT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?

    ACTS 5:32 [32], And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM.

    God only gives His Spirit to those who obey His Word.

    ...............

    WHO ARE GOD'S SAINTS ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?

    REVELATION 14:12 [12], HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH (teachings) OF JESUS.

    God's Saints are all those who keep God's Commandments and the teachings of JESUS

    ...............

    WHO ARE THOSE WHO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

    REVELATION 22:14 [14] BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Those who have eternal life are those who do God's commandments.

    ...............

    WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

    ROMANS 1:5 [5] BY WHOM WE HAVE RECEIVED GRACE AND APOSTLESHIP, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS, FOR HIS NAME

    ...............

    Sorry my friend it seems God's Word disagrees with you. May you receive God's Word and be blessed. I believe our salvation depends on it. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. We cannot claim "the Spirit, the Spirit" without believing and following what God's Word says. That is the spirit of the antichrist.

    Hope this helps
     
    #751 3rdAngel, Mar 31, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Well nothing you have posted here addresses anything in the post and scriptures you are quoting from again. Christ is the end of the law because that is where God's LAW points to and leads us. This does not mean God's LAW (10 commandments) is abolished as that interpretation would have the rest of the bible in the teachings of JESUS and the APOSTLES contradicting themselves.

    [I will reply to each point using blue]

    Romans 10:4 does not say that 'Christ is the end of the law', but 'Christ is the end of the law for righteousness'. This means that Christ HIMSELF becomes the righteousness of the law INSTEAD of the written law. You don't continue to follow the letter of the law when you have the SPIRIT of Christ as your guide.

    As I have stated many times before, the law is not abolished but FULFILLED.


    For example...

    PAUL who wrote the same scripturs says this about the law which is contradicting your interpretation of ROMANS 10:4..

    1. Paul teaches God's people keep the Sabbath Hebrews 4.
    We have spoken about this chapter. It is not about the weekly sabbath but about the believer's rest in Christ.
    2. Paul tells gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Corinthians 7:19
    Yes, but time and time again in the New Testament we are told that God's commandments are to LOVE. If we walk by love we cover all that is required by the law.
    3. Paul tells gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Romans 2:13-16
    Yes, by Paul's gospel, the gospel of grace. The doers of the law are those who follow the righteousness of Christ by faith. We will be judged by works of faith. [See James]

    4. Paul asks that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Romans 3:31
    The law is established by faith. This is called 'the law of faith' [see Romans 3:27]. It is distinguished from the law of works. Why is it established by faith? Because the righteousness is not our own; it's the righteousness of Christ, in whom we trust!
    5. Paul tells ALL Christians that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Romans 8:6-8
    The flesh is only overcome by the presence of the Holy Spirit. As it says, 'to be spiritually minded is life and peace.' This is why we must be born again. Thereafter, we walk by the law of liberty in Christ. Once again, this is the law of faith. All the moral laws are covered by this positive commandment to live by faith and grace [by the love of God].
    6 Paul reaches all Christians under the NEW Covenant that God's LAW as known in Jer 31:31-33 is "written on the heart and mind" Hebrews 8:7-11
    When the law becomes written on the heart it is no longer a covenant of law. It has become a covenant in Christ. Otherwise, there is no New Testament.
    7. Paul tells all Christians that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2 Timothy 3:16
    This is true. For even under the gospel of grace the commandments are there as an underpinning of what is right and wrong. Let's not forget that the law is a schoolmaster unto Christ. For those who misuse their freedom in Christ, who do not walk by faith, sin is a reality. Unless a person seek forgiveness, sin has consequences, too.
    AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.
    It's important to recognize that the difference between the Old and New Testament's is the difference between man's righteousness and God's righteousness.
    8. Paul tells all Christians that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" Ephesians 6:1-2 and is binding on all Christians.
    Interesting that you should highlight this commandment. Paul calls it 'the first commandment with promise' because it brings blessing. Clearly it is also a commandment to love. So this means it is applicable as the way in which the Spirit leads us.
    But, tell me, apart from Hebrews 4, which I dispute as a source, where else in the New Testament do we find a specific reference to follow the Fourth Commandment? Could it be, that the reason it is not mentioned is that we now have our rest in Christ? Could it be that the moral and spiritual aspects of the fourth commandment are met in our freedom to abide in Christ at all times?

    9. God's Law (10 commandments) are holy, just and good (Romans 7:12)
    I don't doubt this for a minute. We follow them in the Holy Spirit.
    10. God's Law gives us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; 7:7)
    So does the Holy Spirit [John 16:8].
    11. The penalty of breaking God's Law without Jesus is death (Romans 6:23)
    Since I am now able to abide in Christ, I no longer live in fear. Perfect love casts out fear [1 John 4:18].
    12. If we break God's Law we dishonor God (Romans 2:23)
    As I walk by the Spirit I do not break the law [1 John 3:9]
    13. If we sin we are "under the Law" and guilty before God (Romans 3:19)
    That's why you must be born again, and walk by faith according to the gospel of grace.
    14. We are saved by faith but our faith establishes the Law in us (Romans 3:31)
    Our faith should bring grace, which is not of the law [Romans 4:14-16].
    15. If we are saved by grace we should not break God's Law (Romans 6:1-7)
    If we walk by the Spirit, we don't break God's law [1 John 3:5,6].
    16. We should not break God's Law if we are under grace (Romans 6:15)
    As above.
    17. We are to serve the Law of God through the mind because that is where sin starts (Romans 6:17; 7:25; 8:4; 12:2)
    The Spirit has influence over the mind, such that once we are born again and walk by faith we have our mind gradually changed into the likeness of the mind of Christ [Philippians 2:5].
    18. It is God's Law that brings us to Jesus (Galatians 3:24)
    I agree. Just a pity you have continued in the law after finding Christ. The New Testament doesn't actually begin until after the death of the testator [Hebrews 9:16,17].
    19. God's salvation frees us from sin so we can be obedient to God's Law and live a life of holiness (Romans 6:22)
    Yes, we are free to serve our Lord by the grace that He has given us [2 Corinthians 5:17].
    20. We will be judged by God's Law and only those that are obedient will be justified because of their faith (Romans 2:4-13)
    Those who live under the law will be judged by the law, and will not be justified [Galatians. 2:16]. But 'mercy rejoiceth against judgment' [James 2:13 and Romans 8:1]
    21. God's Law can only be obeyed through love and a changed heart which comes by faith in God's Word (Romans 2:21-29; 13:9-10; Heb 8:9-10)
    Yes, but you must walk by the Spirit, otherwise it is of your own righteousness.
    22. If we break God's Law and are in unrepentant sin we will be lost and will received God's judgements (Hebrews 10:26-27)
    If you walk by the Spirit of God in love you do not break God's laws.

    Now the above examples are only from Paul which contradicts your interpretation of ROMANS 10:4. It is God's LAW that leads us to Christ. That is the meaning of "end". The same view is also expressed by Paul in GALATIANS 3:22-25. If you like I am happy to show you the same from JESUS, JOHN and JAMES which contradicts your interpretation of ROMANS 10:4 just let me know. The above scriptures written by PAUL are not even exhaustive and we have not even started on the scriptures from JESUS, JAMES and JOHN. Does this not concern you? It should. It shows your interpretation of the scriptures are in error or your happy to believe the bible contradicts itself which it does not.

    You're quite right, Paul could be quoted and re-quoted to provide the same gospel of grace!

    What you should listen to are the words of Paul in Romans 7.
    'Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
    For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
    So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
    Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.'

    Are you an 'adulteress', 3rdAngel?


    Hope this helps.
     
    #752 Redemptionsong, Apr 1, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    From our past conversations you interpret fulfilled as abolished because Christ did it so we do not have to. This is not biblical and the same outcome as abolished which is not biblical. For clarification are you saying the fulfilled means that we do not have to obey God's commandments? Or exaclty what are you saying fulfilled means. Detailed scripture response please.
    We have indeed spoken about this chapter. I provided you with the scriptures proving that Hebrews 4 is talking about God's rest which it defines as the "seventh day Sabbath" in HEBREWS 4:1-5 with verse 9 saying the "it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath. I did not get a response back from you to all the scriptures provided that show your interpretation of the scriptures are in error. You simply make a statement here saying it is not so because you say so. Sorry but your words do not supersede Gods Word.
    Sorry my friend but according to God's Word Love is not separate from Gods LAW it fulfills it. This is why JESUS says "On these two commandment hang all the law and the propets. Paul shows the same thing quoting God's commandments in ROMANS 13:8-10 as does JAMES in JAMES 2:8-12. Love is not separated from LAW in the scriptures it establishes and fulfills it in the life of the believer *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9; ROMANS 6:1-23. This is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12
    What are you actually saying here? What does it mean in your view to be a doer of the law? You reponse here makes not sense to the scripture you are quoting from. JESUS did not do the law so that we do not have to. That interpretation would contradict the rest of the bible. See 1 JOHN 3:4-9; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14 etc too many scriptures.
    Goodness see the previous section in point 3. You are trying to twist the scriptures in to something they are not saying. ROMANS 3:31 says that faith does not abolish God's law but ESTABLSIHES GOD'S LAW. Romans 3 context is to God's LAW (10 commandments) giving us a knowledge of what sin is in ROMANS 3:20 and that all of sinned and stand guilty before God of sin *ROMANS 3:9-20. Your ignoring the scriptures and trying to make they say things that they are not saying. Read the scriptures as it reads. "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Romans 3:31 We establsih God's LAW through faith. I can see and believe you are confused here.
    We can only follow God's LAW by walking in God's Spirit through faith in God's Word *GALATIANS 5:16; JOHN 6:63. If we are born again we will not practice sin *1 JOHN 3:6-9. Sin is the transgression of God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4 or breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 or not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23. According to the scriptures if we think we know God and are following God and breaking God's commandments we are lying and the truth is not in us *1 JOHN 2:3-4.
    No it is simply the new Covenant. This is what everything in the old covenant pointed to. Which is JESUS and God's plan of salvation for mankind in the new covenant. The new covenant does not abolish God's LAW it establsihes it through faith in the life of those who believe Gods Word. As posted earlier if we are born again we will not practice sin *1 JOHN 3:6-9. Sin is the transgression of God's LAW *1 JOHN 3:4 or breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11 or not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23. According to the scriptures if we think we know God and are following God and breaking God's commandments we are lying and the truth is not in us *1 JOHN 2:3-4.
    True but the evidence is in the fruit and that is why JESUS says by their fruit we shall know if someone is from God or not from God. Do they by faith keep all of God's commandments or 9 of God's 10 commandments? God's Words says if we keep 9 and break one we are guilty before God of breaking all of them *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath is one of those 10 commandments.

    to be continued...
     
    #753 3rdAngel, Apr 1, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    You simply deny Hebrews 4:9 which says "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" you have not disputed this scripture you have ignored it and the context provided in HEBREWS 4:1-4 defining God's rest of the seventh day Sabbath. JESUS who is our example kept God's Sabbath and also taught us the correct way to keep God's Sabbath as shown in MATTHEW 12:1-12 and stated that he was the creator of it that he created for all mankind in MARK 2:27-28. All the Apostles also followed JESUS in keeping and teaching all of God's 10 commandments all through the new testament scriptures.

    What the new testament teaches about God's 4th commandment?

    1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
    2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27; Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1-3; 14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16-17)
    3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
    4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4:1-12)
    5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
    6. Breaking it is sin (James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4)
    7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; Ezekiel 20:20)
    8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1 Corinthians 11:1; Ephesians 5:1-21; Peter 2:20-22)
    9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10)

    HEBREWS 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

    to be continued...
     
    #754 3rdAngel, Apr 1, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Something we agree on.
    Indeed but only through the Word of God not outside of it. God's Word gives us the knowledge of the truth through Gods Word * JOHN 17:17; JOHN 8:31-36 and God's Spirit is the Spirit of the Word of God that reveals truth through the word of God *JOHN 6:63; JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13
    I believe in times of ignorance God winks at or does not hold us accountable for sin until God brings us a knowledge of the truth *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31. When God brings us a knowledge of His truth he calls all men everywhere to believe and follow His Word. If we reject Gods Word when we have been given a knowledge of the truth and continue in sin (breaking God's commandments) then the scriptures teach there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come because those who reject God's Word and continue in known sin count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the Spirit of Grace. *HEBREWS 10:26-39. God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break it just like any of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11. The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God' dear son (the Word) *JOHN 1:1-4; 14; ROMANS 6:23. By their fruit you shall know them *MATTHEW 7:12-26; 1 JOHN 2:3-4
    I disagree. See previous section with scripture evidence as to why
    Those who are born again do not knowingly practice sin (breaking God's Commandments and believe God's Word). I believe if you have been given a knowledge of the truth and reject Gods Word to continue in sin you need to be born again not to practice sin as sin (breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing his Word *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 14:23 is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:4-10.
    Nonsense Grace through faith does not abolish Gods' LAW the scripture you are quoting from says it ESTABLISHES GOD'S LAW. I believe you are confused as to the reason God has given us His Grace through which we are saved *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. The reason God gives us His GRACE is shown in ROMANS 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name"
    True that is what I just posted through the scriptures. This however includes God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. God's Words says if we keep 9 and break one we are guilty before God of breaking all of them *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath is one of those 10 commandments.
    As per previous section. God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. God's Words says if we keep 9 and break one we are guilty before God of breaking all of them *JAMES 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath is one of those 10 commandments.

    to be continued...
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    True, it is like we are babes that need to grow as we learn more and more of God's Word. If we reject God's Word at any step of the way to continue in known unrepentant sin once we receive a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word we reject JESUS and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-39.
    I believe you are confused here dear friend. It is God's LAW established in the life of those who believe through faith *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4 who are walking in God's Spirit of love *GALATIANS 5:16. 1 JOHN 3:4-10 and have received a new heart to love through the operation of God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10. According to the scriptures if our has no fruit then our faith is dead and we are lying to ourself only having a form of godliness and denying Gods' power of salvation to save us from our sins *JAMES 2:18-20; 26; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9; 2 TIMOTHY 3:5; MATTHEW 7:12-27; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; JOHN 8:31-36.
    Indeed Gods' Grace is for obedience to the faith. It is not a liscence to sin and break any one of God's 10 commandments. If you are still in sin you are not free to serve JESUS in newness of life *ROMANS 6:1-23; 1 JOHN 3:4-9.
    Those who are "under the law" are those who stand guilty before God of breaking the law and are under sin (breaking God's Law) *ROMANS 3:9-19
    God only gives His Spirit to those who obey him *ACTS 5:32. Those who knowingly break God's law and practice sin *1 JOHN 3:4 do not have God's Spirit. Sin is the difference according to the scriptures between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:9-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.
    According to the scriptures if our has no fruit then our faith is dead and we are lying to ourself only having a form of godliness and denying Gods' power of salvation to save us from our sins *JAMES 2:18-20; 26; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9; 2 TIMOTHY 3:5; MATTHEW 7:12-27; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; JOHN 8:31-36.
    Not at all, I believe your confused. Romans 7 is law of the sinful human nature that we are delivered from in Christ and freed to walk in God's Spirit to no longer obey the lusts of the flesh. I suggest you read ROMANS 6:1-23; ROMANS 7 and ROMANS 8 all together. Those who commit adultery in this sense are those who do not believe and follow God's Word. I believe you need to be asking yourself this question.

    Are you an adulteress Redemptionsong? All you have managed to do is to handwaive and ignore the scriptures shared with you that could be a blessing to you if you received them as a gift from heaven.


    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear. It will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.
     
    #756 3rdAngel, Apr 1, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Romans 7:1-4 is central to our disagreement because it distinguishes between being married to the first husband (the Mosaic law, including the Ten Commandments) and the second husband (Christ). Only when we die to the first are we able to live to the second.

    This is what Luther said, 'The false apostles taught this doctrine: Except thou live to the law, thou art dead to God; but Paul saith quite contrary: Except thou be dead to the law, thou canst not live to God.....to live to the law is, in truth, nothing else than to die to God; and to die to the law is nothing else than to live to God.'

    As pointed out before, the law brings blessings and cursings [Deut. 30:15-20], and the law includes the Ten Commandments.
    The responsibility for doing the law, which are called the 'works of the law' falls to those who are under the law [Deut.30:14].

    Now, this is what Paul says to the Galatians. Galatians 3:10-14.
    'For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all the things which are written in the book of the law to do them.'
    But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.'

    To be an 'adulteress', according to Romans 7:1-4, you must still be married to your first husband having married your second husband. Since you have stated that you are still married to the law [the Ten Commandments], and that the law is not dead to you, then you cannot be married to Christ in good faith. Surely, this makes you an 'adulteress' according to Paul's definition?

    Here's another important verse. Galatians 3:19.
    'Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

    The Ten Commandments, which are to be found in the book of the law, were added 'because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made [Christ]'.

    As I see it, we are not transgressors if we walk by Christ's righteousness. So why would we then have to follow the letter of the law again, which is for transgressors?

    If we walk by love, the Spirit of Christ, we do all that is required by the law. There is no more need to look to the letter of the law, as you do with the Fourth Commandment. If we love God by abiding in Christ, and do works of love as the Spirit leads us, we fulfil ALL the law.
     
  18. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Your post here is simply a good example of you not reading what you are quoting from and making arguments no one is making (strawman). If you are not reading and considering what is being shared with you here how can we have a discussion?

    What I believe the problem is, as shown in earlier posts is that you do not believe the good news in relation to salvation from sin which God's Word (not me) defines sin as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; This includes Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. You claim "the Spirit" "the Spirit" yet as shown you through the scriptures already, God's Spirit works through the Word of God as we believe it *JOHN 6:63; JOHN 17:17 and God only gives "His Spirit" to those who believe and obey His Word *ACTS 5:31.

    Those who do not believe and follow God's Word do not receive God's Spirit. If you have God's Spirit you will have a new heart to love and according to Paul LOVE fulfills and establishes God's law in those who believe and follow God's Word *ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:10-12; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36; 1 JOHN 3:6-9. Sin (breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments) *JAMES 2:10-11 and those who practice sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:9-10.

    Your response to these scriptures and the many posts and scriptures provided already is to simply ignore them (handwaive) yet they are Gods Word my dear friend and not my words but God's Word. You deny God's Word with your words which are not Gods Word but yours so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
     
    #758 3rdAngel, Apr 2, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Although you keep denying it, my 'strawman' argument is directed at something you cannot deny, namely, your adherence to a Jewish sabbath. This adherence is a central feature of your Church denomination.

    At the heart of our differences is an understanding of what it means to walk by faith and grace. For you, it clearly means doing what is said in the Ten Commandments, not according to the Spirit of the law, but according to the letter of the law.

    The problem I have with following the letter of the law, as found in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20, is that this is not what the law of liberty teaches. The Apostle Paul is the chief expositor of the Gospel of grace to the Gentiles, and in his writings it is absolutely clear that Gentiles are to walk by the Spirit and not by the letter of the law.

    Let me take each of the first three passages you quote above and look at what they teach.

    YOU SAY THAT SIN IS THE BREAKING OF GOD'S TEN COMMANDMENTS. I ask, IS THIS THE COMPLETE TRUTH?

    Your evidence: Romans 3:31; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

    Romans 3:31. 'Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.'

    According to Romans 3:27, we can understand 'law' to be of two types. There is the law 'of works', referring to those laws that we are to do, and live in, and there is the 'law of faith', which is trust in the righteousness of Christ.

    What is the difference between the two types of law, given that both proceed from God? I answer this by saying that 'of works' means that we do the law by our own righteousness, remembering also that the law was only given because of transgressions. 'Of faith' means that we place our reliance on God by asking him to guide and lead us.

    So then, how does faith 'establish' the law? As the Apostle Paul tells us in Hebrews 11:1, 'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'. And again in verse 6 he says, 'But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.'

    Faith is a response to the living God. When under the law, one does not have to believe 'that he is' to do the law. I can go to Church every Saturday/Sunday (whenever) but not really trust that God is real. I can read the words of the Bible but not hear God's voice. The law is something you DO because the fear of punishment, the fear of sin and death, holds you in bondage. [I should add, that blessings also proceed from the doing of the law]

    When we walk by faith in grace, in the power of the Holy Spirit, we ask God to be our righteousness. It is His love that guides us, not our own self-righteousness. In fact, we become as nothing, for He is to be our all. The long and short of it is that we become God-reliant. We cannot do this if we are trying to do the commandments of God in our own power and righteousness. This is what the 'letter of the law' demands.

    God's way of ensuring that we do not continue to try to do the law by our own righteousness, is to offer us the Spirit as a Comforter and guide into 'all truth'.

    The way of love has a very different character to the law.

    In Hebrews 10:25 Paul says, 'And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    Not forsaking the assembling together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.'

    Paul had every opportunity to say to his hearers, 'make sure you keep the sabbath!' but he didn't. Under the law of liberty, the Church could choose when to meet together. There was no obligation or fear of punishment, just a word of warning to those who would forsake 'the assembling together' and go it alone.

    You also quoted Romans 7:7.
    'What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.'

    My response to this is to say, Amen. The law was given by God, and God is good. But the law was given to transgressors of faith [Galatians 3:19] Paul says 'the law is not of faith' [Galatians 3:12].

    1 John 3:4. 'Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.'

    Sin is the transgression of the law. But the law is more than the Ten Commandments. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 5:21,22 etc. Sin is in 'the heart' as well as in 'the doing', and it takes a new Spirit to change us whilst we live in the flesh.

    I notice that you do not quote 1 John 5:17 as much as you do 1 John 3:4!
    Here is what 1 John 5:17 says, 'ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN', so it is not just the breaking of the Ten Commandments that constitutes sin. It is everything that is not of faith, 'for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'[Romans 14:23]

    Is your righteousness by faith, or of the law?
     
    #759 Redemptionsong, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Not really dear friend. It is Gods' Word alone that denies your claims here not me and you have been shown why your claims are in error through the scriptures. Your response has been to simply ignore and continue to repeat yourself to claims that have already been addressed in detail through the scriptures.

    For example here you claim "Jewsih Sabbath; Jewish Sabbath" Yet you have been shown in GENESIS 2:1-3 which is the origin of the SABBATH that there was no JEW and no ISRAEL when JESUS says in His own Words that the Sabbath was made for all mankind *MARK 2:27 and he is the Lord (creator) of it *MARK 2:28

    As shown you through the scriptures earlier God's 4th commandment is one of Gods 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of sin when broken *JAMES 2:10-11 and all those who continue in known unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth will not enter the kingdom of God because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-39. I believe you are trying to twist the scriptures to your own destruction.
    Nonsense. Please stop telling me a believe something that I do not especially when your not reading what is posted to you. I have already told you exactly what I believe so you really do not have any excuse to try and claim I believe things I clearly do not. As posted to you earlier, that we are only saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.

    OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. According to the scriptures, I believe if your fruit is sin which is defined in Gods Word as breaking any one of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4 then your fruit will lead you to death *ROMANS 6:21-22 because you reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27
    This is where I believe you are either confused or simply seeking once again to make strawman arguments no one is making or believing. No one has said to you we are to follow the letter of the law outside of the Spirit of the law. So your point here is mute as no one has ever said of suggested such things. Where I believe you are confused here though is that it is the letter of the law that leads to the Spirit of the law.

    You cannot have one without the other as God's Spirit works through the letter not outside of the letter, as we believe it as it is written "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" *ROMANS 10:17 and again "It is the Spirit the quickens the flesh profits nothing, the words that I speak unto you they are Spirit and they are life" *JOHN 6:63 and once againt. "Sanctify them through the truth, your word is truth" *JOHN 17:17. There is no Spirit without the letter (the Word of God).

    God's Spirit works through the letter (God's Word) not outside of it
    and is why JESUS says we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God *MATTHEW 4:4 and it is why it is also written, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God has given to them that obey him" If we disobey God's Word we do not have His Spirit we have the Spirit of the children of disobedience *EPHESIANS 2:2 which is not God's Spirit ACTS 5:32 but the Spirit of antichrist.

    Anyone who does not follow God's Word (the letter) through the Spirit does not have God's Spirit dear friend. Sin which is defined in the scriptures as not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23 and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and those who practice sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10 and why it is written "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" *1 JOHN 2:3-4.
    Nonsense, you asked no such question. Please post me the link when I addressed this question posting those three scriptures as an answer to your pretend question. Are you being honest here my friend? Maybe this is simply another example of you not reading my posts and the scriptures shared with you as I have posted no such thing in answer to your made up question. If you read my posts you will know that when I give a definition of what sin is I will show from the scriptures that sin is not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23 and breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4. Please stop claiming things I have never said and trying to build arguments around lies. The rest of your post here is simply repitition already addressed in the posts and scriptures shared with you that you simply ignored, so I feel no need to repeat myself to you. Sorry my friend but as shown through the scritptures alone I believe Gods' Word disagrees with you and I believe you are beggining to see this. Count it as a blessing. God's Word can be a blessing or a curse. It is a blessing if we receive it through faith and follow it or it will be a curse to all those who reject it in order to follow sin and man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God. Behold says JESUS I stand at the door and knock. Who will let him in?

    Hope this helps.
     
    #760 3rdAngel, Apr 3, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
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