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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Goodness read the post you are quoting from. This response and the questions you ask only shows you haven't. The law is what leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith. It gives us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. It shows us we are all under sin and it's penalty *ROMANS 3:9-18 and leads us to the cross of Christ that we might be forgiven through faith.

    LAW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Christ (end) *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 3:22-25.

    Galatians 5:22 does not say there is no law when we come to Christ because if there is no law there is no knowledge of sin ROMANS 3:20. Galatians 5:22 is where the law leads us so that we can receive Gods' forgiveness by faith in God's Word through Christ.

    I believe according to the scriptures, no one has God's Spirit while knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments. As JESUS says by their fruits you shall know them (who are God's followers and who are not) *MATTHEW 7:16-26.

    If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. You cannot separate faith and works according to the scriptures just the same as you cannot separate love and law as OBEDIENCE is the fruit of faith in God's Word which is how love to God and man is expressed in all those who have been born again in the new covenant promise and given a new heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10; ROMANS 13:8-10; MATTHEW 22:36-40; JAMES 2:8-12. See also HEBREWS 11.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
     
    #641 3rdAngel, Mar 13, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You've made it very clear that you live under law and not grace.

    It's just a pity you refuse to listen to the words of Isaiah, who said: 'I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.' [Isaiah 65:1]

    Yet to Israel he says, 'I have spread out my hands all day unto a rebellious people, which walked in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;' [Isaiah 65:2]
     
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  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    3rdAngel, I don't doubt that you love Jesus Christ, but you remind me of Apollos. [Acts 18:24-28]

    If you believed the words of Romans 8:2 'For the law of the Spirit of life hath made me free from the law of sin and death' then you would not feel an obligation to follow the sabbath of the Jews, or indeed, any other holy day. Nor, if you followed the Gospel of grace, would you teach others that they have an obligation to observe the Jewish sabbath, on pain of judgment.

    Romans 10:3,4 says, 'For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

    You can only claim to have taken hold of the new if you have left the old behind. As the scripture says, 'no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better' [Luke 54:37-39]

    Galatians 5:22,23 lists the fruits of the Spirit and they have nothing to do with obedience to the law.

    Galatians 3:24,25 says, 'Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.'

    We are no longer under the law when in Christ. To be in Christ is faith, to be under the law is obedience. But after faith is come, we are no longer under the law.

    Is the Fourth Commandment one of God's laws? Yes. And since we are no longer under God's law, we are no longer under the fourth commandment [if, as Gentiles, we ever were].

    I cannot put it any more plainly.
     
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  4. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "New Covenant" is expounded in Jeremiah 31:31-36 with respect to the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and the conclusion is that if the "sun for light", and if the "fixed order of the moon" "departs", then "all the offspring of Israel" "I will cast off". And it is for "my name", that I will "take you from the nations", "and bring you unto your own land", and "I will give you a new heart and a put a new spirit in you", "then the nations(Gentiles) will know that I am the Lord". (Ez 36:21-26). As for Isaiah, when the LORD settles Israel/Jacob on their own land, "strangers will attach themselves to the house of Jacob", and "the house of Israel" will possess them as an inheritance". (Isaiah 14:1-2). The house of Israel and Judah are under judgment for their rebellion, but in the end, the nations will be destroyed, yet the house of Israel and Judah will only be "chastened" (Jeremiah 30:1-11). And "I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah... and bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they shall possess it."

    As for you false gospel of grace, well, I think as with Paul, Paul's followers will continue to be cursed with the plagues of the daughter of Babylon, and as with Paul, they shall surely die (Jeremiah 31:30 & Revelation 18:4). If you had the faith of a mustard seed, you could throw a mountain into the sea. You apparently have a non applicable faith, as do the demons, but in the teachings of a false prophet who died and became perishable.
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I believe if you understood the scriptures correctly you would see that ROMANS 8:2 is not saying we are free from obeying God's Law. The Law of sin and death is not the 10 commandments it is the sinful nature we all have apart from CHRIST and what we need to be saved from as sinners as stated in ROMANS 7:12-25 .

    THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH IS THE CARNAL MIND OR THE SINFUL NATURE

    ROMANS 7:12-25
    [12], Why THE LAW IS HOLY, AND THE COMMANDMENT HOLY, AND JUST, AND GOOD.
    [13], WAS THEN THAT WHICH IS GOOD MADE DEATH TO ME? NO. BUT SIN (is made death to me), THAT IT MIGHT APPEAR SIN, WORKING DEATH IN ME by that which is good; THAT SIN BY THE COMMANDMENT MIGHT BECOME EXCEEDING SINFUL.

    Note here PAUL says that God’s LAW is holy just and good and in ROMANS 7:7 also says that it is through the law we receive a knowledge of what sin is confirming the same statement in ROMANS 3:20. Paul is stating in ROMANS 7:12-13 that GOD’S 10 COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT DEATH but SIN IS DEATH and that Gods’ law simply shows what SIN is and that SIN is working death in us.


    [14], FOR WE KNOW THAT THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL: BUT I AM CARNAL, SOLD UNDER SIN.
    [15], FOR THAT WHICH I DO I ALLOW NOT: FOR WHAT I WOULD, THAT DO I NOT; BUT WHAT I HATE, THAT DO I.
    [16], If then I do that which I would not, I CONSENT TO THE LAW THAT IT IS GOOD.
    [17], NOW THEN IT IS NO MORE I THAT DO IT, BUT SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME.
    [18], FOR I KNOW THAT IN ME THAT IS, IN MY FLESH, DWELLS NO GOOD THING: FOR TO WILL IS PRESENT WITH ME; BUT HOW TO PERFORM THAT WHICH IS GOOD I FIND NOT.
    [19], FOR THE GOOD THAT I WOULD I DO NOT: BUT THE EVIL WHICH I WOULD NOT, THAT I DO.
    [20], Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, BUT SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME.
    [21], I FIND THEN A LAW, THAT, WHEN I WOULD DO GOOD, EVIL IS PRESENT WITH ME.
    [22], For I DELIGHT AFTER THE LAW OF GOD after the inward man:
    [23], BUT I SEE ANOTHER LAW IN MY MEMBERS, WARRING AGAINST THE LAW OF MY MIND, AND BRINGING ME INTO CAPTIVITY TO THE LAW OF SIN WHICH IS IN MY MEMBERS.

    Note from ROMANS 7:14-20 PAUL is talking about two laws; 1. The law that of sin v21 and v23 and 2. Law of God v22. PAUL is showing that it is sin in us that brings death not the law of God and in ROMANS 7:21-23 PAUL is talking about “ANOTHER LAW” the law of “SINFUL NATURE” the “LAW OF THE FLESH” of “CARNAL MIND” calling it “THE LAW OF SIN


    [24], O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    [25], I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    ………….

    CONCLUSION: The context of ROMANS 8:2 [2], “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the “LAW OF SIN AND DEATH” is ROMANS 7:12-25 which shows that THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH is not God's 10 commandments but another law called THE LAW OF SIN which is SINFUL HUMAN NATURE (ROMANS 7:21-23). This is why the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH in ROMANS 8:2 is not the 10 Commandments. It is THE OTHER LAW being spoken of in ROMANS 7:12-25 which is the law of our "SINFUL NATURE", the "FLESH" or the "CARNAL MIND" that is being referred to in ROMANS 8:2 which is the context of ROMANS 8:2 that is THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. ROMANS 8:2 is stating that salvation frees us from this law by God's Spirit. This is further establsihed by PAUL in GALATIANS 5:16 when he says "walk in the SPIRIT and YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH and again in ROMANS 8:13 where he says "FOR IF YOU LIVE AFTER THE FLESH (Carnal mind or sinful nature) YOU SHALL DIE; but if you through the SPIRIT mortigy the deeds of the body you shall live.

    Please consider the scriptures here brother. May you receive God's Word and blessed.
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    '...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.' [Philippians 2:12]

    Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law, 'Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.' [Leviticus 18:5]

    'And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.' [Deuteronomy 28:14]

    I wish you good works.

    Meanwhile, I'll seek mercy, and take my rest in the righteousness of the One who came to fulfil the law. [Matthew 5:17]
     
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  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Romans 10:4. 'For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

    As much as you choose to twist words around, the plain truth is clear for all to see. 'The law for righteousness' is the whole law, the whole covenant made with Moses. The Ten Commandments lie at the heart of this covenant of law.
     
    #647 Redemptionsong, Mar 14, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
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  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Goodness RS, can I ask you an honest question? Are you reading anything I have shared with you including the scriptures provided? Your response here to me only shows me you have not read my posts but are simply ignoring them. Where have I posted anywhere to you or in this thread of forum that we are saved by what we do and if I have never posted any such thing why are you pretending that I have or that is what I believe? It seems to me you simply ignore the scriptures that have only been shared in love and as a help to you in order to justify sin for which we will all be held accountable to God.

    Actually they have everything to do with obedience to God's law which is the fruit of faith. You need to dig a little deeper my dear friend as surface readers without God's Spirit are like sifting sand going nowhere.

    The fruits of the Spirit are....

    1. RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 8:4; PHILIPPIANS 1:11; ; 2 CORINTHIANS 9:10; ROMANS 3:31. God's Word defines all God's commandments as RIGHTEOUSNESS *PSALMS 119:172 which is the fruit of faith *ROMANS 3:31

    2. LOVE *GALATIANS 5:22. JESUS says on these two great commandments of love to God and man HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40.

    3. PEACE *GALATIANS 5:22. Great peace have they which love your law: and nothing shall offend them *PSLAMS 119:165 this is a fulfillment of JEREMIAH 31:31-36 and HEBREWS 8:10 of God's new covenant promise

    4. JOY comes from trusing in the Lord (the Word) *PSALMS 5:11; In God's presence is fullness of Joy *PSALMS 16:11; Those who are made RIGHTEOUSS (obedient) are full of Joy *PSALMS 32-11. Joy comes from God's salvation through his Spirit *PSALMS 51:12. We are to be clothed with righteousness (obedience to God's law) and shout for Joy PSALMS 132:9 because we are a royal priesthood and a chosen generation *1 PETER 2:9

    Everything else is the fruit of love through faith by God's Spirit. The GREATEST of these however is love.

    It has always been about LOVE but love does not abolish God's law according to the scriptures it fulfills it *ROMANS 13:8-10. We do not follow God's LAW to be saved. We follow God's WORD by faith because we LOVE God which is the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; MATTHEW 22:36-40; JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; JOHN 14:15; EXODUS 20:6.

    According to the scriptures when we are given a new heart to LOVE it is expressed through obedience to God's LAW. You cannot separate God’s Law of love from the 10 commandments because they are connected to each other. There is no need for confusion here. God’s Word makes it very clear.

    Let's look at the scriptures.

    MATTHEW 22:36-40
    [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    [37], Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
    [38], This is the first and great commandment.
    [39], And the second is like to it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
    [40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

    NOTE: Jesus when asked this question from the Lawyer is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Finishes by saying that on the two great commandments of LOVE hang all the law and the prophets.

    What does v40 mean?

    LUKE 10:25-28
    [25], And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
    [26], He said unto him, what is written in the law? how read you?
    [27], And he [the Lawyer] answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.
    [28], And he said unto him, you have answered right: this do, and you shall live.

    NOTE: The lawyer knew what it means to love God and love his neighbore. How? Notice the question that the lawyer starts os by asking Jesus; "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?". Now notice that the very same question is asked again and look how Jesus answers...

    MATTHEW 19:16-19
    [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
    [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, YOU SHALL DO NO MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT LIE, [19], HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and you shall love your neighbour as yourself.
    Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    NOTE: Notice in that the question from the rich young ruler is the very same question as asked by the lawyer "WHAT SHALL I DO TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE?" but both were answered by Jesus in a different way. When the Lawer asked the question he answered his own question by saying LOVE to GOD and LOVE to his neighbor (from Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Jesus said he answered correctly. When the rich yound ruler asked the same question Jesus answered by saying keep the 10 Commandments and starts out quoting them as his duty of LOVE to his neighbor.

    Is this a contradiction of scripture? In no way the answer has already been given in MATTHEW 22:36-40. ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS (LOVE TO GOD and LOVE TO MAN) HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

    When we LOVE GOD and our NEIGHBOUR it is expressed through our actions.

    If we LOVE our neighbor...

    * We will honor our parents,
    * We will not kill them
    * We will not commit adultery with thier spouse
    * We will not steal from them
    * We will not lie to them
    * We will not covet what they own.

    If we LOVE our God...

    * We will not have other Gods
    * We will not make idols and worship them
    * We will not take his name [follow] him in vain
    * We will remember his Sabbath and keep it holy.

    ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS [OF LOVE] HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

    PAUL understood what JESUS was talking about...

    ROMANS 13:8-10
    [8], Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law. [9], For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore, love is the fulfilling [DOING] of the law.

    Notice what PAUL says here? LOVE is fulfilling [doing] God's Commandments. God's Commandments or duty towards your neighbor is summed up as you shall LOVE your neighbor as yourself v9. [On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets Matthew 22:40].

    PAUL agrees with Jesus that if you LOVE you will fulfill God's LAW. What about JAMES?

    JAMES 2:8-12
    [8] If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself [Sums up our duty of love in the 10 Commandments Romans 13:9] , you do well: [9], But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convicted of the law as transgressors. [10], For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. [11], For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. [12], So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

    James is using the second great commandment of LOVE which hangs all the commandments of our duty of love to our neighbour and quotes the commandments showing our duty towards our neighbor. This is why Jesus says “On these two commandments hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets” Matthew 22:40. and again..

    JOHN 14:15 [15], IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

    You cannot separate LOVE from God’s LAW. Love is the FULFILLING of it and is demonstrated by OBEDIENCE to Gods’ LAW as our duty of LOVE to God and man. [“On these two commandments [of LOVE] hang ALL THE LAW and the prophets]

    ...................

    CONCLUSION: It is very clear that JESUS, PAUL and JAMES are all in agreement that the two GREAT COMMANDMENTS of LOVE that JESUS quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 were used and known in the OLD Testament scripture to sum up our duty of LOVE to God and man in the 10 Commandments.... God's LAW (Ten commandments) is not separated from LOVE it demonstrates it. You cannot have LOVE without fulfilling God's Ten Commandments. [On these two Commandments of LOVE hang all the LAW and the prophets].

    .............

    According to the scriptures, God's 4th commandment is one of the ten commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20. It is one of the commandments that show our duty of LOVE to God and how we express our love to God.[/QUOTE]
     
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. We have been freed from the condemnation of the law if we have repented from our sins and by faith received God's forgiveness. GALATIANS 3:22-25 is complimentary to ROMANS 8:1-4 which says
    [1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE IN CHRIST JESUS, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

    The fruit of coming to JESUS is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the LAW is fulfilled in us *ROMANS 8:4 or as PAUL says our faith ESTABLISHES THE LAW IN US *ROMANS 3:31. If you are still in your sins (breaking God's LAW) you are not in the Spirit but in the flesh and PAUL says if you are walking in the flesh you will die *ROMANS 8:13 and tells us to walk in the Spirit (the Word by faith) and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *GALATIANS 5:16

    No one is "UNDER THE LAW" if they through faith have repented and turned away from their sins and have received God's forgiveness. To be "UNDER THE LAW" simply means to be standing guilty before God of BREAKING in the conext of ROMANS.

    ROMANS 3:19 NOW WE KNOW THAT WHAT THINGS SOEVER THE LAW SAYS IT SPEAKS TO THEM THAT ARE UNDER THE LAW; THAT EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD.

    We are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law.

    You cannot put it more plainly because I believe you do not understand the scriptures. According to your reasoning we are now free to lie, steal, commit adltery, murder, use God's name in vain and have other God's. This is not biblical is it? This alone I believe should show you warning signs to your reasoning and that you are in error in departing the faith.
     
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. All your doing is ignoring the scriptures provided to you in post # 641 linked that shows why you are in error and repeating yourself without understanding that the new covenant is Gods law written on the heart to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12 from JEREMIAH 31:31-34 and that love fulfills *ROMANS 13:8-10 and establsihes Gods' LAW through faith *ROMANS 3:31; MATTHEW 22:36-40 in the heart and life of those who believe God's Word and walk in His Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 8:4
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Before taking this any further, I would like to clear up an important difference in our understanding.

    Love is not just the DOING of the law, it is the FULFILMENT of the law. The two things are different. 'Fulfilment' means a perfect completion, such that nothing is missed, not even the subtle nuances of the law. This is why Jesus' comments on the law in Matthew 5 are so important. Jesus did not just keep the outward law, he kept the law inwardly, in Spirit, as well as outwardly! His fulfilment of the law was complete and spiritual.

    Interesting. Apollos, in Acts 18, had repented of sin ['knowing only the baptism of John'] and he was 'instructed in the way of the Lord', so he clearly had faith in Jesus as Messiah. Yet, this same man still needed to be instructed in a more perfect way - the way of grace. Why? Because Apollos had not received baptism in the Holy Spirit.

    At Ephesus [Acts 19:2], Paul found disciples of Jesus and asked them, 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?' Had these disciples shown faith in Jesus? Of course. But they had not received the Holy Spirit, and had not walked by grace. Today, we might say that they were 'religious', still not free of their own obligation to be righteous.

    When you talk about doing the Ten Commandments, you are actually talking about YOUR love for God, and YOUR love for your neighbour. This is YOUR righteousness.

    Through faith and grace [the Holy Spirit], a born again believer is demonstrating GOD'S righteousness, GOD'S love - the fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT.

    It was not OUR love that fulfilled the law, but the love of Christ, GOD'S love that fulfilled the law. Are we now to be filled with our own love, or God's love? To be filled with God's love, we must place our faith in Christ and receive His Holy Spirit.

    Only you can truthfully answer Paul's question, 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?'
     
    #651 Redemptionsong, Mar 15, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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  12. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Your comments here are not a difference at all. It simply shows you are not reading my posts which go into this subject that we need to be saved from the inside out *MATTHEW 5 in detail in post # 611 linked that you ignored and did not respond to.

    Love is the power and motive and reason and what is changed for doing God's Law and is why JESUS says "ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS of love to God and man HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40. JESUS says you cannot separate love and law because it is only be love that God's law is fulfilled and established in the life of the believer through faith *ROMANS 3:31. PAUL takes up this same thought in ROMANS 13:8-10 and shows this very exact theme you deny and agrees with JESUS by saying [8], Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.

    Note: the Greek word used here for FULFILLED G4137 πληρόω; plēroō means to execute and to satisfy; to accomplish; to perfect; to complete; to perfect or to supply or give. The context is the law nomos; application and context is the 10 commandments.

    [9], For this, YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT KILL, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, YOU SHALL NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. [10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

    Note: Paul is showing that our love to our neighbore is summed up in the second six commandments of the 10 commandments and directly qoutes them in support of what JESUS says; On these two commandments (love to God and man) hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:36-40
    ACTS 18:24-28 [24], And a certain Jew named APOLLOS, born at Alexandria, AN ELOQUENT MAN, AND MIGHTY IN THE SCRIPTURES, came to Ephesus. [25], THIS MAN WAS INSTRUCTED IN THE WAY OF THE LORD; AND BEING FERVENT IN THE SPIRIT, HE SPOKE AND TAUGHT DILIGENTLY THE THINGS OF THE LORD, knowing only the baptism of John. [26], And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, THEY TOOK HIM TO THEM, AND EXPOUNDED TO HIM THE WAY OF GOD MORE PERFECTLY. [27], And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brothers wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace. [28], FOR HE MIGHTILY CONVINCED THE JEWS, AND THAT PUBLICLY, SHOWING BY THE SCRIPTURES THAT JESUS WAS CHRIST.

    Note: The scriptures say that he only knew the Baptism of John but was instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervant in the Spirit. According to the scriptures, Apollos already had God's Spirit. He was only being instructed more perfectly in the understanding of them by Aquila and Priscilla. The scriptures do not say as you suggest that Apollos did not have God's Spirit or do they say that Apollos received God's Spirit after Aquila and Priscilla instructed him more perfectly in the understanding of scriptures. Your reading into the scriptures things that are not there while ignoring what the scriptures say .
    "Since ye believed" was in reference to the baptism and teachings of John and repentance. ACTS 19:2 gives the reason why these disciples had not have God's Spirit. It was because these disciples had not heard of God's Spirit or did they know about JESUS who JOHN was pointing to and when they received Christ they received God's Spirit *ACTS 19:4-6. We receive God's Spirit when we recieve Christ by faith and believe his promise of salvation *EPHESIANS 1:13
    Love and Grace all come through faith in God's Word and given to those who believe by God's Spirit. This is God's righteousness through God's promises in the new covenant *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Those who are born again to love do not practice sin (breaking God's commandments) *1 JOHN 3:6-9. Sin is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil * 1 JOHN 3:10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14; MATTHEW 7:16-26. God's righteousness is obedience to God's law *PSALMS 119:172. It is not disobedience to God's LAW.
    I believe you are confused here dear brother. Apart from JESUS we have no love in us unless we have been born again to love. This is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10 and why it is written in the scriptures; "But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you" *JOHN 5:42. We cannot love God or our fellow man if God has not changed our heart to love through the new covenant promise of a new heart as it is written again; "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" *ROMANS 2:28-29.

    May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.
     
    #652 3rdAngel, Mar 15, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Let's start with Matthew 22:36-40. This appears to be the premise on which your argument is built.

    Verse 40 says, 'On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.'

    So we are talking about the law, not grace. These two commandments, namely, to love God and our neighbour, are from the law. We know this for sure, because Jesus is responding to the question, 'Master, which is the great commandment in the law?'

    God gave these commandments to Israel. He is telling Israel how He wants them to behave 'under the law'. The love has to be, therefore, THEIR love. It is not God's love. I hope we can agree on this.

    All the commandments are for Israel to DO. These two commandments summarise what Israel is to do. All the law and the prophets boil down to these two commandments. If you can truly love God and your neighbour, you will surely fulfil the law.

    Did anyone under the law [and the prophets] truly manage to love God and his neighbour? With the exception of Jesus, it would appear not. For 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God'.

    So Jesus Christ was the only one to fulfil the law in love [Note 'pleroo', 'perfectly']. It was not because others had not kept the Ten Commandments. Take, for example, the story of the 'certain ruler' of Luke 18:18. When asked by Jesus if he kept the [ten] commandments , he answered, 'All these have I kept from my youth up.' In other words, he had loved God and his neighbour according to the law. Yet, Jesus places additional demands on him by saying, 'Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor', and then he adds, 'and come, follow me.' It was the final commandment to sell up that left the man 'very sorrowful: for he was very rich.' Is there a commandment under the law that says you should not be rich? Not that I'm aware of. So, what Jesus is doing is setting the standard of perfect obedience, which goes beyond the written law! This is telling us that to walk by the Spirit is greater than any obedience to the written law!

    The demands of God's kingdom are for perfect obedience to all aspects of the law, both outward and inward. The only person who has managed to show perfect obedience is the Son of God. He showed perfect obedience under the law, and then, after baptism, perfect faith through the Holy Spirit.

    We are called to walk by faith in the Holy Spirit because it is more perfect than the letter of the law. This is what Jesus meant when he said, 'come, follow me'. This does not mean that the law is abolished or made void, because walking by the Spirit means you do MORE than is required by the law, just as Jesus Christ did more. The law tells us not to commit adultery, the Spirit helps us not to look upon a woman/man lustfully!

    And it was 'the way of God more perfectly' that Aquila and Priscilla expounded unto Apollos! Now, Apollos was not fervent in the Holy Spirit but in his own spirit! If you don't believe me then look up Luke 1:80. Here we read that Jesus, as a child, 'waxed strong in spirit'. This was not the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not, as a child, been baptized with the Holy Spirit. This teaches us that we each have our own spirit, and it is not God's Spirit! God's Spirit, the Holy Spirit has to be received [by us] through repentance and faith!

    Grace is only grace when you see that it is a free gift and not something earned by good works.
     
    #653 Redemptionsong, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
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  14. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense. Your post is a mute point and not true, trying to argue the scriptures were only relavant to ISRAEL. I believe the scriptures in the new covenant define God's true ISRAEL as all those who believe and follow God's Word so your application to the scriptures being to ISRAEL only supports the scriptures shared with you that the church according to the scriptures are Gods' ISRAEL in the new covenant. Scripture support provided here....

    1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
    2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
    3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
    4. What about the nation of Israel?
    5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

    GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)

    There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

    EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

    GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

    God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

    ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

    God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

    ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

    COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

    ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

    The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

    EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

    and again...

    JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Paul proclaims it here...

    HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

    If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

    ............

    God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.

    Now let's look at the meaning of the name that God gave to his people. The name "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" God gave this name to his people and it means that they shall rule with God. Take a look at the following scriptures from REVELATION speaking of God's people.

    REVELATION 1:5-6 [5], And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6], And HAS MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    and again...

    REVELATION 5:10 And HAVE MADE US TO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS; AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

    Peter speaking of God's people says it this way...

    1 PETER 2:9-10 [9], But you [God's people] are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD [KINGS AND PRIESTS], an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

    Sound familar? "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" WHY?

    JESUS is our great HIGH PRIEST ministering on our behalf in the HEVENLY SANCTUARY *HEBREWS 4:14. JESUS is the KING of KINGS *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16

    HE WILL RULE WITH GOD WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "ISRAEL" is the name given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because JESUS will make them to rule with him as PRIESTS and KINGS.

    Notice also in REVELATION 7:3-8 just before the judgements of God are poured out on the world God's people are sealed with God's Spirit and 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

    REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL. [5], Of the tribe of JUDAH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of REUBEN were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of GAD were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of ASHER were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of MANESSAH were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of SIMEONwere sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of LEVI were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of ZEBULON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of JOSEPH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of BENJAMIN were sealed twelve thousand.

    If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL, you have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentile believers are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-26. What does all of the above mean? All scriptures is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness *2 TIMOTHY 3:16 and we are to live by every word of it *MATTHEW 4:4.

    May you receive God's Word and be blessed. Ignoring it does not make it disappear.
     
    #654 3rdAngel, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    How can you say it is 'nonsense' that God made the covenant of law with Israel?

    Deuteronomy 27:9,10. 'And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the LORD thy God.
    Thou shalt therefore obey the voice of the LORD thy God, and do his commandments and his statutes, which I command thee this day.'

    When the covenant of law was made between God and Israel, the Church did not exist, so this is not an argument about whether or not the Church is part of 'God's true Israel'. This is simply a statement about the children of Israel being given the law, which is what happened under the Old Testament.

    The New Testament is not a covenant of law, but a covenant of grace. This is something you continue to deny by your insistence that we keep the old law. As Paul says, 'if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.'

    By insisting that people follow the fourth commandment, you are asking them to go back to the law and their own righteousness. This is not grace, but works. Christ has already fulfilled all the laws, both outwardly and inwardly, and it is HIS SPIRIT that we now follow.
     
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  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Because it is nonsense. Your trying to argue that God only gave His law (10 Commandments) to ISRAEL. I believe this is true but who does God's Word define as God's ISRAEL? I believe the new covenant scriptures I already provided to you in the post that you are quoting from that you refuse to address and ignored clearly states that God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word.

    Now let's be honest now my dear friend and this was already stated in the post you are quoting from that you ignored, who did God make the new covenant promise of Grace with?

    Let's read it again...

    HEBREWS 8:10-12 [8], For finding fault with them, he said, BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, SAID THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: [9], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, said the Lord. [10], FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAID THE LORD; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: AND I WILL BE TO THEM A GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE TO ME A PEOPLE: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.[12], FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR INIQUITIES WILL I REMEMBER NO MORE.

    Yep there it is ISRAEL! The new covenant promise is to ISRAEL. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL you have no part in the new covenant promise. Gentile believers are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27,

    As shown in the post you are quoting from God's ISRAEL is only a name given by God to all those who profess to believe and follow God's Word as already shown in EPHESIANS 2:11-13; GALATIANS 3:28-29; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13.

    All your post says to me is that you either did not read or understand the scriptures posted to you, as you addressed nothing in that post accept the first word that started off the post which was me saying that your previous post was nonsense. You simply ignored the rest of the post and scriptures showing why I called your post nonsense. I do not believe you read any further then the word nonsense as you did not address anything else within the post that showed why I believed your post was nonsense and in error.

    I am being honest with you my dear friend. When I say to you that no one enters into God' Kingdom when they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and rejects it in order to follow known unrepentant sin. According to God's Word I believe that sin is defined as the transgression of God's LAW (10 commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:10-11.

    God's 4th commandment is one of God's ten commandments (EXODUS 20:8-11) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break it and if we knowingly break it just like any other one of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin (JAMES 2:8-12). If we do not seek God in repentance and forgiveness when we have been given a knowledge of the truth *ACTS 17:30-31 we are in danger of the Judgement because there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgment to come *HEBREWS 10:26-27.

    Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. I believe Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (MATTHEW 15:2-9)

    There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

    Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God? Something to think about as I believe this is the great test that has come to our world. That is, who do we choose to believe and follow; God or man?

    This is a question I believe we must all consider when we examine ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith or not *2 CORINTHIANS 13:5
     
    #656 3rdAngel, Mar 17, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You're mushing OT and NT texts together. That can't be done and maintain any sort of exegesis of either.
     
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  18. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    This is a weak argument, since it's predicated on Paul's concept of the Church being grafted in, and Paul himself says that we are no longer under the law. I think your concept of what it means to be "grafted" differs from what Paul means. You're going to have to do some real exegesis -- not just quote-mine and claim that you've followed the exegetical process.
     
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  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Those who believe and follow God's Word being God's ISRAEL (the Church) is not a weak argument whatsoever. It is supported by a multitude of scripture linked here...

    1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
    2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
    3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
    4. What about the nation of Israel?
    5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?

    I believe you are confused. To be "under the law" according to ROMANS 3:10-20 means to be guilty before God of breaking it.

    Hope this helps
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Of course it is.

    No, that’s not it.
     
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