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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Well we are getting side tracked a little from the OP here but anyhow we can talk about it a little if you like. Your claim here is impossible. I will explain why in a bit more detail shortly but for now, Antiochus died about 170 years before Christ was born, while this was a power that was to compass Jerusalem with armies at a period still future, when Christ spake the words we are considering. Of course it could not refer to a power which had ceased to be, two hundred years before. It is therefore certain that the 2300 days in the eighth of Daniel, unto which this abomination was to continue, since they referred to this abomination, could not have been fulfilled in Antiochus. Since, therefore, they refer to the Romans, they must have denoted years, instead of literal days, as many claim; and since the time appointed reaches to the end of indignation, when the sanctuary shall be cleansed, the 2300 days must measure the time of pagan and papal Rome, at the end of which the Ancient of days shall come, with his fiery flame, and his wheels of burning fire, and the body of the beast shall be slain and given to the burning flame. Thus shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
     
    #381 3rdAngel, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    The little horn of Daniel 8 does not symbolize Antiochus Epiphanes, but it does symbolize Rome. To prove this is easy. If people would only treat interpretations of prophecy as they treat bank-bills, that is, compare them with the detector to see if they are genuine, there would be no trouble. Our only wonder is that any one could ever have supposed the application to Antiochus to be genuine.

    Why do I say the above??? For very good reason. Please follow....

    1. This horn came out of one of the four horns of the goat. Verse 9. It was therefore another horn separate and distinct from any of the four. One of these four horns, as we have seen, was the kingdom of Syria, founded by Seleucus, from whom sprung the famous line of kings known in history as the Seleucidae.

    Of these there were twenty-six, in order as follows:- 1. Seleucus Nicator. 2. Antiochus Soter. 3. Antiochus Theus. 4. Seleucus Callinicus. 5. Seleucus Ceraunus. 6. Antiochus the Great. 7. Seleucus Philopater. 8. Antiochus Epiphanes. 9. Antiochus Eupator. 10. Demetrius Soter. 11. Alexander Bala. 12. Demetrius Nicator. 13. Antiochus Theos. 14. Antiochus Sidetes. 15. Zebia. 16. Seleucus, son of Nicator. 17. Antiochus Grypus. 18. Antiochus the Cyzicenian. 19. Seleucus, the son of Grypus. 20. Antiochus Eusebes. 21. Antiochus, second son of Grypus. 22. Philip, third son of Grypus. 23. Demetrius Eucheres. 24. Antiochus Dionysius. 25. Tigranes. 26. Antiochus Asiaticus, who was the last of the Seleucidae, and who, after an insignificant reign of four years, was driven from his dominions by Pompey, the Roman, B.C.

    It will thus be seen that Antiochus Epiphanes was simply one of the twenty-six kings who constituted the Syrian horn of the goat. He was for the time being that horn; hence he could not be at the same time a separate and independent power, or another remarkable horn, as the little horn was. Rome was such a separate horn, and, from the stand-point of this prophecy, came out of one of the horns of the goat, thus answering exactly to the prophetic description. In the year 161 B.C., Rome became connected with the Jews by the famous Jewish League, 1 Mac. 8; Josephus' Antiq., b. xii., chap. x., sec. 6; Prideaux, vol. ii., p. 166. Nations are noticed in prophecy when they become connected with God's people. Right here the conquering legions of the Roman power came into the prophet's view. But just seven years before this, B.C. 168, Rome had conquered Macedonia (one of the four horns of the goat), adding it to its empire. And as if coming from that horn, the prophet beholds it from that point pursuing its triumphant career. It is therefore spoken of as coming forth from that horn.

    2. Were we to apply the little horn to any one of these twenty-six Syrian kings, it should be to the most illustrious and powerful one of them all. But this was not Antiochus Epiphanes. For historians inform us that his name, Epiphanes, the illustrious, was changed to Epimanes, the fool, on account of his vile and extravagant folly. The little horn cannot apply to Antiochus, but must signify the Roman power, because,

    3. This little horn, in comparison with the preceding kingdoms, Media and Persia, waxed "exceeding great." There is in the prophecy a regularly increasing gradation of power: great, very great, exceeding great. Applying the little horn to Antiochus, the following result is presented: 1. "Great," Persia. True. 2. "Very great," Grecia. True. 3. "Exceeding great," Antiochus. Nonsense.

    The Persian empire is simply called "great," though it ruled "from India even unto Ethiopia, over an hundred and twenty and seven provinces." Grecia, still more extensive and powerful, is called "very great." Then comes the power in question, which is called "exceeding great."

    Was Antiochus great in comparison with Alexander, who conquered the world? or with the Romans, who conquered vastly more than all of Alexander's dominions?? The kingdom of Antiochus was only a portion of the empire ruled by the goat. Is a part more than the whole? Of the relation between Antiochus and the Romans, the Religious Encyclopedia says: "Finding his resources exhausted, he [Antiochus] resolved to go into Persia to levy tributes and collect large sums which he had agreed to pay to the Romans."

    Can any king be said to have waxed exceeding great, when he left his kingdom no larger than he found it? But Sir Isaac Newton testifies that Antiochus did not enlarge his dominions. He made some temporary conquests in Egypt, but immediately relinquished them when the Romans took the part of Ptolemy and commanded him to give them up. It surely cannot take any one long to decide which was the greater power, the one which evacuated Egypt or the one which commanded that evacuation; the one compelled to pay tribute, or the one to whom he was compelled to pay it.

    One was Antiochus; the other was Rome. With Rome as the third member of the series, we have this result: 1. "Great," Persia. True. 2. "Very great," Grecia. True. 3. "Exceeding great," Rome. More emphatically true than either or both the others.

    4. The little horn was to stand up against the Prince of princes, by which title, without doubt, our Lord is meant. But Antiochus died 164 years before Christ was born. There was a power, however, which did stand up against the Saviour. Rome was then in the zenith of its glory. And Rome, in the person of Herod, endeavored to destroy the infant Jesus. Subsequently, when Pilate was its mouth-piece in Judea, it nailed him to the cross. The same work is attributed to the great red dragon of Rev.12, a symbol referring so evidently to Rome that none care to dispute the application. Antiochus answers not one specification of the prophecy; and here we may
    therefore dismiss him. But, for a more full elucidation of the prophecy, we may
    further say of Rome:-

    5. This horn was "little" at first. So was Rome, but it "waxed," or grew, "exceeding great" in three several directions. What better terms could be used to describe the course of that power which from a small beginning rose to be the mistress of the world?

    6.
    It gathered dominion toward the south. Egypt was made a province of the Roman empire B.C. 30, and continued such for over six centuries.

    7. It marched its conquering legions toward the east. Rome subjugated Syria B.C. 63, and made it a province of the empire.

    8. It set its face toward the pleasant land. Judea is so called in many scriptures. Ps.106:24; Zech.7:14; etc. First by a league of assistance and friendship the Romans took under their influence the holy land and people. They subsequently made Judea a Roman province, and finally destroyed the city of Jerusalem, burned their beautiful temple with fire, and scattered the Jews over the face of the whole earth to be gathered no more till time shall end.

    9.
    It waxed great even to the host of heaven. These terms, used in a symbolic sense in reference to earthly scenes, must denote persons of illustrious character or exalted position. The great red dragon, Rev.12:4, Pagan Rome, is said to have cast down a third part of the stars of heaven to the ground. This is the same power, and we think the same work, referring to its acts of oppressing the Jews and deposing their rulers.

    10.
    By him the daily (not daily sacrifice, as our translators have supplied, but daily desolation, which is paganism) was taken away, and the transgression of desolation, the papacy, was set up.. Chap.11:31. Rome, and Rome alone, did this. While Rome was ruler, the religion of the empire was changed from paganism to that corrupted form of Christianity known as the papacy. And the place where paganism had long had its sanctuary, Rome with its Pantheon, or temple of all the gods, was cast down, or degraded to the second rank, by the removal of the seat of government to Constantinople, in A.D. 330. So in Rev.13:2, the dragon, Pagan Rome, gave to
    the beast, Papal Rome, his seat, the city of Rome, and great authority.

    11. An host was given him against the daily. The barbarians that subverted the Roman empire became converts to that nominal Christianity before which they were thus brought face to face, and were soon transformed into willing instruments whereby their former religion, paganism, was dethroned. No other power has in any respect fulfilled this prophecy.

    12.
    In the interpretation, verse 23, it is called a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences. Such was emphatically Rome, with its warlike paraphernalia, and its strange language which the Jews did not understand. Moses uses similar language, referring, as all agree, to the Romans. Deut. 28:49,50.

    13. It was to stand up in the latter time of their kingdom, when the dominion of the four horns of the goat was drawing to an end. There Rome appeared.

    14.
    It was to destroy wonderfully. Hear all opposing powers, which it so rudely overthrew, testify, Thus did Rome.

    15.
    Rome has destroyed the mighty and holy people, the people of God, more than all other powers combined. A many-tongued voice from the blood of more than fifty millions of martyrs, goes up to testify against it. 16. And it has "practiced,"-practiced its deceptions upon the people, and its schemes of cunning among the nations, to gain its own ends, and aggrandize its
    power.

    17.
    And it has "prospered." It has made war with the saints, and worn them out and prevailed against them.

    18.
    It has run its allotted career, and is to be "broken without hand." Verse 25. How clear a reference to the stone cut out without hand which is to smite the image upon its feet and dash it to pieces. So the papacy is soon to perish in the consuming glories of the second coming of our Lord. Thus Rome fulfills all the specifications of the prophecy. No other kingdom meets even one. Rome is the power in question. No other can be.

    In view of all these facts, if any one still affirms that Antiochus was the little horn, or if he even hesitates to admit its application to Rome, all we can do is to take such person by the hand, and exclaim, with the deepest commiseration for his unfortunate condition,

    "Non compos mentis. Farewell."
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Sorry.

    Temple of Jerusalem | Judaism | Britannica
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Temple-of-Jerusalem
    During the Persian and Hellenistic (4th–3rd century bc) periods, the Temple generally was respected, and in part subsidized, by Judaea ’s foreign rulers. Antiochus IV Epiphanes, however, plundered it in 169 bc and desecrated it in 167 bc by commanding that sacrifices be made to Zeus on an altar built for him.

    Media was northern Iran (Persia) and Antiochus IV was king of that too.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry, all you have provided me is historical links to Antiochus Epiphanes of which I am already aware. These links in no way connect to the prophecy of Daniel 8's little Horn and you have failed to show how Daniel 8 connects to Antiochus Epiphanes. The reasons why Antiochus Epiphanes does not fit the prophecies of Daniel 8 is shown in the 18 + points in post # 381 and post # 382 linked showing why he does not fit the scriptures. Now if you disagree that is ok but do not say sorry and provide me another historical link when you cannot connect the historical links to the fulfillment of the scriptures in Daniel 8. If you disagree please address the linked posts provided here that show why it is impossible for Antiochus Epiphanes to be the little horn of Daniel 8. If you cannot then you would have to agree that there are problems with your interpretation of the scriptures. All you have provided is a Catholic and Protestant teaching that is not supported by the scriptures. :)
     
    #384 3rdAngel, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  5. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    Looking at Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Epimanes, the mad one], and the failure of this person to fulfil the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn':

    "... He was not deficient in capacity or vigour of mind to make a figure in war; but [31] such perversity and indiscretion prevailed in his whole conduct and behaviour, that they soon changed the surname which they had given him, and instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes, or madman; for many were the acts of folly ar madness which he committed. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    "... Wherefore to many he appeared not to know what he was doing; some said that he acted from a silly sportive temper; others, that he was evidently mad. ..." Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XX [20] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    There are some who attempt, from the apocryphal books of Maccabees, to demonstrate that Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfills the prophecies of Daniel 8's 'little horn', but now let us examine that source and see for ourselves that the claim cannot be defended.

    For instance in, we see that Epiphanes had 'ben a pledge at Rome' [1 Maccabees 1:11, Bishop's Bible 1568] [ie Hostage in youth at Rome, against his Father Antiochus III].

    "... About this time, Antiochus, son to Antiochus the Great, who had been for a long time a hostage at Rome, came into possession of the kingdom of Syria, on the death of his brother Seleucus. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XIX [19] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    It only gets worse from here on out... as even according to history he [Antiochus IV] did not wax “exceeding great” by any standards, in Egypt [South], Jerusalem [Pleasant Land] or East [Medo-Persia], as his Father Antiochus III had, etc.

    A lone Roman ambassador [Gaius Popillius Laenas from the Roman Senate] and some guards put him to flight in Egypt [ca. 168 BC], rescuing Egypt completely out of his hands:

    "... XI. In the mean time, Antiochus, after a fruitless attempt against the walls of Alexandria, had retired; and being now master of all the rest of Egypt, he left, at Memphis, the elder Ptolemy, whose settlement on the throne was the pretended object of his armament, though, in reality, he meant to attack him, as soon as he should have vanquished his competitors; and, then, he led back his army into Syria. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XI [11] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    "... XII. When the time fixed for the suspension of hostilities, was elapsed, Antiochus ordered the commanders of his fleet to sail up the mouth of the Nile to Pelusium, while he himself entered Egypt, through the deserts of Arabia. He was amicably received by the people about Memphis, as he was, afterwards, by the rest of the Egyptians; some being led by inclination, others by fear; and he proceeded thus, by short marches, down to Alexandria. He had just crossed the river at Eleusine, four miles from that city, when he was met by [249] the Roman ambassadors. At their coming, he saluted them, and held out his right hand to Popillius; but Popillius putting into his hand a written tablet, desired him first to peruse that. On reading it, he said, that he would call his friends together, and consult what was to be done; on which Popillius, with that roughness which generally marked his character, drew a line round the King, with a wand which he held in his hand, and said, “Before you go out of that circle, give such an answer as I may report to the senate.” Astonished at such a peremptory injunction, the King hesitated for some time; but, at last, replied, “I will do as the senate directs.” Popillius then thought proper to stretch out his right hand to him; as to a friend and ally. Antiochus having retired out of Egypt, on a day prefixed, the ambassadors employed their influence in establishing concord among the royal family, on a more firm basis than it had yet acquired; and then sailed to Cyprus, from whence they sent home the ships of Antiochus, and which had fought and defeated an Egyptian fleet. This embassy attracted a great share of respect from all nations; having manifestly rescued Egypt out of the hands of the Syrian, when he had it within his grasp, and restored to the race of Ptolemy, the kingdom of their forefathers. ..." - Titus Livius; Livy's History of Rome, Volume 6, Book XLV [45] Chapter XII [12] - The History of Rome, Vol. 6 - Online Library of Liberty

    Even the Jews [Judas Maccabees, etal. according to the apocryphal books of [1-4] Maccabees] threw him [his armies] out of Jerusalem, in the Maccabean revolt. And nowhere could it be said that he waxed exceeding great in the east [Media-Persian, area], dying there in great heaviness [sorrow/sadness] and dishonour [1 Maccabees 6:3-6, Bishop's Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

    1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

    1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,

    1 Maccabees 6:6 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And how that Lysias went foorth first with a great power, and was dryuen away of the Iewes, how that they had wonne the victory, and gotten great goodes out of the hoastes that perished,​

    Further more:

    1 Maccabees 6:8 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So it chaunced, that when the king heard these wordes, he was afrayde, & greeued very sore: Wherefore he layde him downe vpon his bed, and fell sicke for very sorowe, and all because it had not happened as he had deuised.

    1 Maccabees 6:9 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And there continued he long: for his griefe was euer more and more, so that he sawe he must needes dye.

    1 Maccabees 6:10 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore he sent for all his friendes, & saide vnto them: The sleepe is gone fro myne eyes for the very sorowe and vexation of heart that I haue.

    2 Maccabees 9:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - At the same time came Antiochus againe with dishonour out of Persia.

    2 Maccabees 9:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For when he came to Persepolis, and vndertoke to robbe the temple, and to subdue the citie, the people ranne together and defended them selues, insomuch that he and his were faine to flee with shame: and so after that flight it happened that Antiochus came againe with dishonour.​

    and, by his own words, as given in 1 Maccabees, he dies, a miserable failure, in a “straunge lande” of the “east”, or just outside of Persia [and apparently, whose body, did Phillip bring down into Egypt, 2 Maccabees 9:29 Bishop's Bible 1568]:

    1 Maccabees 6:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - I know that these troubles are come vpon me for the same cause: and behold, I must dye with great sorowe in a straunge lande.

    1 Maccabees 6:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So the king Antiochus died there, in the hundred fourtie and nine yere.

    2 Maccabees 9:28 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Thus that murtherer and blasphemer of God was sore smitten: and like as he had intreated other men, so he died a miserable death in a straunge countrey vpon a mountayne.​
     
  6. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    Apparently, in 2 Maccabees, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has a repentant heart, desires to repair all of the wrongs, rebuild the temple and become a Jew himself, and preach to the world, and sends a 'letter' as such [though dies miserably still], which is also not in harmony with the scriptural account of the “little horn”, which never repents:

    2 Maccabees 9:13 Bishop's Bible 1568 - This wicked person prayed also vnto the Lorde, who nowe woulde haue no mercie vpon him:

    2 Maccabees 9:14 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as for the citie that he came vnto so hastyly, to bring it downe to the ground, and to make it a graue for dead men, now he desireth to deliuer it free:

    2 Maccabees 9:15 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And as touching the Iewes, whom he had iudged not worthy to be buried, but woulde haue cast them out with their children, for to be deuoured of the foules and wilde beastes, [saying that he woulde haue destroyed both olde and young:] now he promysed to make them like the citezins of Athens:

    2 Maccabees 9:16 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And where as he had spoyled the holy temple afore, nowe he maketh promyse to garnishe it with great giftes, to encrease the holy ornamentes, and of his owne rentes to beare the costes & charges belonging to the offringes:

    2 Maccabees 9:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Yea and that he would also become a Iewe hym selfe, to go through euery place of the worlde that was inhabyted, and to preache the power of God.

    2 Maccabees 9:18 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But when his paynes would not ceasse, (for the ryghteous iudgement of God was come vpon hym) out of a very dispayre he wrote vnto the Iewes a letter of intercession, conteyning these words:

    2 Maccabees 9:19 Bishop's Bible 1568 - The king and prince Antiochus, wisheth vnto the vertuous citezins of the Iewes much health and good prosperitie.

    2 Maccabees 9:20 Bishop's Bible 1568 - If ye and your children fare well, and if all thinges go after your minde, we geue great thankes.

    2 Maccabees 9:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - In my sicknesse also do I remember you louyngly: for as I came out of Persia, & was taken with sore disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common wealth:

    2 Maccabees 9:22 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Neither dispaire I in my selfe, but haue a good hope to escape this sickenesse.

    2 Maccabees 9:23 Bishop's Bible 1568 - But considering that my father led an hoast somtime in the higher places, and shewed who should raigne after him,

    2 Maccabees 9:24 Bishop's Bible 1568 - That if there happened any controuersie, or any hard thing were declared, they in the lande might knowe their chiefe Lorde, that there should be no insurrection.

    2 Maccabees 9:25 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Againe, when I ponder with my selfe, how that al the mightie men and neighbours rounde about are laying wayte, & loke but for oportunitie to do harme: I haue ordeined that my sonne Antiochus shall raigne after me, whom I oft commended to many of you, when I was in the higher kingdomes, & haue written vnto him as it foloweth hereafter.

    2 Maccabees 9:26 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Therfore I pray you and require you to remember the benefites that I haue done vnto you generally and in especiall, and that euery man wil be faythfull to me and my sonne.

    2 Maccabees 9:27 Bishop's Bible 1568 - For I hope that he shalbe of sober and louing behauour, and if he folowe my deuice, he shalbe indifferent vnto you.​

    Furthermore, many who [incorrectly] proclaim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a fulfillment of Daniel 8:9's “little horn” seem, also, to not closely consider the context or the exact order of events described therein with actual historical accounts. For instance, we read [KJB; bold red brackets added]

    Daniel 8:9 - And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward [1st] the south, and [2nd] toward the east, and [3rd] toward the pleasant [land].​

    The scripture [KJB] is perfectly given in “order” [1 Corinthians 15:23; Colossians 2:5 KJB], in its proper “courses” [Judges 5:20; 1 Kings 5:14; 2 Chronicles 31:2, 8:14 KJB]. There are numerous Biblical [KJB] examples that may be given upon request.

    Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not wax “exceeding great”, by any known historically comparable standards, in any direction [in the south/Egypt, any territory he might have gained was immediately given up to Rome for fear of their entering into Battle against him, in Judaea, there were some temporary victories, but short-lived if at all, and ultimately humiliated by being utterly defeated by a band of rebellious Jews, and he ends up dying alone in great sadness in the east [at least in one book of Maccabees]], let alone do so in the proper course and order in which the “little horn” would do in [1] the south, [2] the east and [3] the pleasant land as the scripture [KJB] gives in Daniel 8:9. Instead, we read, even from the apocryphal [non-scriptural] source [Maccabees, as elsewhere], that he [Antiochus IV Epiphanes] attempted to gain territory in the [1] south, [2] pleasant land, [3] east, not being the order given in scripture [KJB]. For instance:

    [1] south [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 1:17 Bishop's Bible 1568 - So when Antiochus began to be mightie in his kingdome, he went about to obtayne the lande of Egypt also, that he might haue the dominion of two realmes.​

    [2] pleasant land [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 1:21 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And after that Antiochus had smitten Egypt, he turned againe in the hundred fourtie and three yere, and went toward Israel,​

    [3] east [according to 1 Maccabees, Bishop's Bible]:

    1 Maccabees 3:31 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherfore he was heauy in his minde, and thought to go into Persides for to take tributes of the lande, and so to gather much money.

    1 Maccabees 6:1 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Now when king Antiochus trauailed thorough ye hie countries, he heard that Elymas in Persia was a noble and plenteous citie in siluer and golde,

    1 Maccabees 6:2 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And that there was in it a very rich temple, where as were clothes, coate armours, and shieldes of golde, which Alexander the sonne of Philip king of Macedonia that raigned first in Grecia had left behinde him.

    1 Maccabees 6:3 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Wherefore he went about to take the citie & to spoyle it, but he was not able: for the citezins were warned of it, and fought with him:

    1 Maccabees 6:4 Bishop's Bible 1568 - And so he fled, and departed with great heauinesse, and came againe into Babylon.

    1 Maccabees 6:5 Bishop's Bible 1568 - Moreouer, there came one which brought him tidinges in Persia, that his hoastes which were in the lande of Iuda were driuen away,​

    Thus, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, fails in fulfilling the prophecy [Daniel 8:9 KJB] in its specific and plainly given order [one may also consider 2 Maccabees 5:2,5,11, 9:1-28], as well as any claim to “exceeding great”, in any direction, or by any standards.
     
  7. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    ProteSDAnt
    To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    Looking further, in Daniel 8:23 KJB, we read of further identification, which cannot possibly be fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes IV:

    Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.​

    For [1], Antiochus IV Epiphanes, was not in the “latter time”, but in the very early midst of it, being about the 7th King [175-164 BC], among many more [unto Antiochus XIII Asiaticus, 69-64 BC, some 100 years later], see “The House of Seleucus” image:

    Bible - Daniel 08 - The Seleucid (Greek) King List.jpg


    And [2], the “transgressors” [of the covenant and Law of God] are the Jews, in the days of Jesus, in the time of the Romans, for He said [KJB]:

    Matthew 23:32 KJB - Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.​

    Their [nation of Israel] cup of iniquity was not yet full during the era of Greece, but it was soon to be in the era of Rome [and their Temple and city to be destroyed], for their 490 years [Daniel 9, 70 weeks] was almost up [and that generation [AD 31], within 40 years later, would see it, AD 70], some sooner than others [like the Highpriests, etc]. Paul speaks about this further:

    1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJB - Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.​

    And [3], the “king of fierce countenance” is a fulfillment of the “Iron” [Daniel 2:33,40, 7:7,19,23 KJB], Roman Empire [whose standard was the 'eagle', and came from afar, from the west, and besieged them in all their lands], as it is given in scripture [KJB] itself:

    Deuteronomy 28:48 KJB - Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:49 KJB - The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;

    Deuteronomy 28:50 KJB - A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:

    Deuteronomy 28:51 KJB - And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:52 KJB - And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

    Deuteronomy 28:53 KJB - And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:​

    Also [4], the “understanding dark sentences” deals with the second major phase of the Roman element [as per Daniel 8:10 KJB], that of Papal Rome, for it means, according to scripture [KJB], to speak and understand parables, proverbs, ie religious/spiritual matters:

    Psalms 49:4 KJB - I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.

    Psalms 78:2 KJB - I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

    Proverbs 1:6 KJB - To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

    Ezekiel 17:2 KJB - Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel;

    Matthew 13:34 KJB - All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

    Mark 4:13 KJB - And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

    Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

    See also “mystery” and “mysteries” in Matthew 13:11; Mark 4:11; Luke 8:10; Romans 11:25, 16:25; 1 Corinthians 2:7, 4:1, 13:2, 14:2, 15:51; Ephesians 1:9, 3:3,4,9, 5:32, 6:19; Colossians 1:26,27, 2:2, 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 Timothy 3:9,16; Revelation 1:20, 10:7, 17:5,7.

    See also “riddle” in Numbers 12:8; Judges 14:12-19.

    See also “hard questions” in 1 Kings 10:1; 2 Chronicles 9:1.

    See also “...take up a parable … a taunting proverb...” Habakkuk 2:6;p.​

    To speak in proverbs is to speak in symbols,

    John 16:29 KJB - His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.​

    Thus, as it is written,

    Proverbs 25:2 KJB - [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.​

    We are those “kings”.​
     
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  8. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    Just looking at the discrepancies of Maccabees, the apocryphal [non-Scriptural KJB] materials in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes:

    "... The Three Deaths of Antiochus Epiphanes in three locations in as many ways:

    1) First death - Antiochus’ first death is found in 1 Maccabees 6:1-16. According to this report he is in Persia and dies while in his own bed due to grief over military losses.

    a) Location: Persia - 6:5
    b) Place: in bed - 6:8
    c) Cause: dies from a broken spirit due to military
    reversals - 6:8, 9
    d) People involved: friends - 6:10, Philip - 6:14
    e) Dies: 6:16
    f) Text: 1 Mac. 6:14 - 16

    14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, whom he made ruler over his realm.

    15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom.

    16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

    2) His second death - The “second” death of Antiochus is found in 2 Maccabees 1:14-17. In this passage he is also in Persia, but is in the temple of a false goddess Nanea during his wedding ceremony. He is supposedly assassinated by the priests of the goddess who drop huge stones down on him from above and then cut his body in pieces.

    a) Location: Persia - 1:13
    b) Place: the temple of the goddess Nanea during his
    wedding - 1:13 - 15
    c) Cause: crushed to death by stones hurled down from
    the ceiling and then dismembered - 1:16
    d) People involved: Antiochus' attendants & the priests
    of Nanea who kill him - 1:15
    e) Dies: 1:16
    f) Text: 2 Mac. 1:14 - 16

    14 For Antiochus, as though he would marry her, came into the place, and his friends that were with him, to receive money in the name of a dowery.

    15 Which when the priests of Nanea had set forth, and he was entered with a small company into the compass of the temple, they shut the temple as soon as Antiochus was come in:

    16 and opening a privy door of the roof, they threw stones like thunderbolts, and struck down the captain, hewed them in pieces, smote off their heads, and cast them to those that were without.

    3) His third death - The amazingly durable Antiochus dies his third and final time in 2 Maccabees 9:1-29. This time he is on his way to Jerusalem to wage war on the Jews. According to the text, God curses him and he is eaten by worms. Before he dies he repents of his evil intentions and writes a letter of peace to the Jews.

    a) Location: the road to Jerusalem - 9:3 - 7
    b) Place: on a mountain road - 9:8, 28
    c) Cause:

    1. God's curse on him - 9:5
    2. He falls from his chariot - 9:7
    3. worms eat him & his skin rots off - 9:9, 10
    d) People involved: his chariot driver, his army - 9:4, 9
    e) Dies: 9:28
    f) In this account he repents and becomes a Jew and
    then writes a letter of peace to the Jews.
    g) Text: 2 Mac. 9:28
    28 Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died in a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains. ..." - Sam Gipp's 24 Hour Seminar Notes, pages 78-80, reformatted.

    We haven't even gotten to 3 and 4 Maccabees yet, but I will leave those for now, and return to Daniel 8 & 11's history as time allows ...
     
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  9. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    To attempt to teach that Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the 'little horn' of Daniel 8, is Jesuit Preterism - The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

    Some attempt to reduce the 2,300 into an imaginary (nowhere to be found in the scripture of Daniel 8) 1150.

    I ask, source please for 1150. There is none.

    The scripture does not relate either of those propositions in its plain reading, in any given place. However, considering these attempts in eisigesis, they cannot but fail in its [scripture's, KJB] specificity also, for Antiochus' 3 years time or 3 ½ [Josephus, a traitor, turncoat, to the Jews, and one who did not accept Jesus Christ as Messiah, thus cannot understand the fulfillment of prophecy in relation to Him, as Daniel 8 and 9, etc is] does not specifically come to 2,300 nor 1,150 [physical days, for it comes to 3 years and slightly over 2 months [70 days]] either. There is no rational mathematical process that will ever make the history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes to fit either of those physical times, not even according to Maccabees:

    1 Maccabees 4:41-43, 1 Maccabees 1:54 [early Dec 167 BC], 1 Maccabees 5:52-54 [so-called '1150', Dec. 14th 164 BC, St. Joseph's [Roman Catholic] Edition of New American Bible with Apocrypha, notation], Bishops' Bible:

    1 Maccabees 1:54 Commaunding al the cities of Iuda to do sacrifice vnto idols.

    1 Maccabees 4:41 Then Iudas appoynted certayne men to fight against those which were in the castle, till they had clensed the sanctuarie.
    1 Maccabees 4:42 So he chose priestes that were vndefiled, such as had pleasure in the lawe of God:
    1 Maccabees 4:43 And they clensed the sanctuarie, and bare out the defiled stones into an vncleane place.

    1 Maccabees 5:52 Then went they ouer Iordane into the playne fielde before Bethsam.
    1 Maccabees 5:53 And Iudas helped those forward that came behinde, and gaue the people good exhortation al the way through, til they were come into the lande of Iuda.
    1 Maccabees 5:54 Thus they went vp vnto the mount Sion, where they offered burnt offeringes with mirth and thankesgeuing, because there were none of them slaine, but came home againe peaceably.

    Notice the two given notation dates, which do not make up more than 3 years, and especially not 3 years and a little over 2 months [70 days]. Therefore, according to the historical records, Antiochus IV Epiphanes fails in this also.

    Furthermore, we can compare what Antiochus IV Epiphanes [Greek king] did in the approximate 3 years [167 BC – 164 BC] in Judaea, with the specific amount of time given in the 2,300 “days” [Daniel 8:14], for the “vision” of the “evening and morning” [Daniel 8:26], [if we bypass the fact that the “vision” of the “daily” begins in the Persian empire, when the Temple itself was restored to full use] and see clearly it does not fit at all, for 2,300 [physical days] is 6 years and somewhat over 4 months [140 days] [where some get the information that it equals 6 years, three months and 18 days seems to be based upon the commentary of John Gill [Calvinistic] at Daniel 8:14, and his non-scriptural two conclusions [“... from the fifteenth day of the month Cisleu, in the year 145 of the Selucidae ...” and/or “... others begin from the defection of the people from the pure religion by Menelaus, Anno 141 …”, which do you subscribe to specifically, so we may test it historically?], yet scripturally [KJB] and especially in prophecy, a month is 30 days, and a year 360 days, see the section below, [A Month Is 30 Days]].

    30 days = 1 month, 12 months [360 days] = 1 year:

    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    360 days = 1 year
    ---------------
    2160 days = 6 years

    2300 – 2160 = 140 days left

    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    30 days = 1 month
    ----------------------
    120 days = 4 months

    140 – 120 = 20 days left.

    Thus physically, 6 years, 4 months and 20 days, according to the scriptural 30 day month and 360 day year. You do admit that Daniel 8 is prophecy, yes?, and would therefore not go by the standard solar year of 365.25 of today?

    Even still, brother “Albert Barnes”, himself says in his notes [Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible, Daniel 8:14]:

    “... The time mentioned by Josephus is three years exactly from the time when “their Divine worship was fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use,” until the time when the lamps were lighted again, and the worship restored, for he says that the one event happened precisely three years after the other, on the same day of the month - Ant. b. xii. ch. vii. Section 6. In his Jewish Wars, however, b. i. ch. i. Section 1, he says that Antiochus “spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months.” ...”

    “... The 2,300-day prophecy witnessed an amazing fulfillment during the terrifying reign of Antiochus. According to the Jewish calendar, the 2300 days works out to be six years, three months, and 18 days. This is the time period in which Antiochus took the daily sacrifices away, and at the end of the 2300 days, was eventually defeated. ...”

    You say “2300” but, even given your own timing [as others also borrowed from John Gill] , “... six years, three months, and 18 days ...” does not fit specifically with any given historical timeframe in regards Antiochus IV Epiphanes, in any given historical source [and John Gill's commentary doesn't help either, as he speculates without evidence in the last portion of the time, does not use scripture to explain the scripture at this point, and does not follow the scriptural 30 day months, 360 day years].

    You may look for yourself, and I will be awaiting for such a source to be given in demonstration, and to see the work shown in the time. The word “eventually” is very telling also, for it is clear that all who present such have a sliding time scale/events and not a precise one.
     
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  10. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    The real Lord's day as identified by scripture:

    Kanye West's "Christian" - "Sunday Service" - Jesus is King Album, Chick Fil-A & the Real Lord's Day

    What is the Lord's day? Let the Bible speak:

    The "Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.

    Genesis 2:1-3,4 - 'the seventh day', 'God', 'day', 'the LORD God' [… God [the LORD] … day …]

    Exodus 16:23 - "the LORD", "to morrow [the seventh day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD' [... the LORD ... [day] ...]

    Exodus 16:25 - 'to day [the seventh day]; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day' [... the LORD ... day]

    Exodus 20:8-11 - 'the sabbath day', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God', 'sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day ...]

    For instance:

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    Exodus 31:15 - 'the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD ... the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

    Exodus 35:2,3 - 'the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD', 'the sabbath day' [… the LORD … day …]

    Leviticus 23:3 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD'

    Deuteronomy 5:12,14 – 'the LORD', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God' [… the LORD … day …]

    Psalms 92:1 - 'A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD'

    Isaiah 56:6 - 'Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant' (context new covenant) [... the LORD ... sabbath [day] ...]

    Isaiah 58:13 - 'the sabbath ... my [the LORD's] holy day ... the holy [day] of the Lord' [... [the LORD's] ... day]

    For instance, in Isaiah 58:13, in many 'modern' translations, the phrase "the LORD's holy day" appear - Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

    "Holy" is merely the adjective.​

    Isaiah 66:22,23 – 'the LORD', 'one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD' [… the LORD … [day] …]

    Jeremiah 17:21 - 'saith the LORD... on the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

    Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

    Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

    Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]' [... the ... Lord ... [day]]

    Revelation 1:10 - 'the Lord's day'

    There is no such thing as 'Sunday sacredness' in all of Scripture, except as a Mark of the Beast (Daniel 7:25).
     
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  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Goodness, somone who knows history and the bible. Welcome and very nice posts. :)
     
  12. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Malo, 3rd Angel. I would desire that people put away their prejudices, their apriori, and go back to basics studying the Bible (KJB) for what it says, rather than what others attempt to make it say, or not say, and also study history in the light of God's word, and prophecy. No history in this earth can truly be understood outside of that Light, for without that light all connections to each other are ultimately lost.
     
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  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    We can only hope. As I have said to you before this the the wild wild west of religion here. Mainly dominated by the faith of athiesm even in many who call themselves "christian". There are few here that even believe the scriptures and many here trying to prove them untrue. Thanks for sharing the truth here :)
     
    #393 3rdAngel, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  14. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Another thing I have found, is that people attempt to define "the Lord's day" by the so-called "ECF" (easily confused fellows; of the 1-4th century AD, etc), instead of going back to the real "fathers"; the Patriarchs and Prophets of Scripture themselves, like John, James and Peter and Paul, and even further back unto Abraham, Moses, David, and those like them, and have those "fathers" tell us, as mouthpieces for God. I find them in the inspired and preserved words of God, and I do not find people like spurious Ignatius, imaginary Didache, self-refuting pseudo Barnabas, etc.

    They would place those persons in afteryears above the definition that Jesus gave.
     
    #394 coconut theology, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    “Spurious” Ignatius? “Imaginary” Didache? You’ve got a very strange take on history — quite revisionist, and an unusual way of mushing the texts together, while completely divorcing them from the rest of apostolic teaching. It renders your conclusions here particularly farcical.
     
  16. coconut theology

    coconut theology coconuts for Jesus

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    Yes, Spurious, Imaginary, etc:

    That is false. Their writings are often forged (like Ignatius) and also abused, you may see that here - Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

    The Bible says:

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

    God even warned you that they would "think" to "change times and laws" (of which the 4th Commandment, the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD is both time and law) of the Most High God:

    Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

    Notice some of the fraud:

    Here is the long form of the citation, since there are several conflicting:

    "... For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8.

    But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.

    It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.

    These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ . . . .—ch. 11. ..." - ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Let's examine the longer form first, with which the reader will immediately notice a severe problem. The very quote that is supposed to prove that "Christians . . . never [worshipped] on the Sabbath" actually commands "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath without being guilty of Judaizing!

    The words "and after the observance of the Sabbath" were intentionally deleted from the quote. Another example of fraud?

    Now to the other shorter form. The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - Link or Link.

    Amazing, having to rely upon spurious writings, pseudo-works, which are forgeries.

    The original Greek (Didache 14:1) does not have the word for "day" anywhere in that sentence and secondly, neither is the word "Sunday" present.

    "... 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ..." - The Twelve Apostles-Didache

    Where is the word for "day" (hemera)? Where is the word for "Sunday"? Where is the word "first"?

    It literally reads, "κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου" (Lord of Lord).

    The translation that most propose to prove Sunday sacredness or that it is the 'Lord's day' is imaginary.

    So far, we have spurious and imaginary.

    Then they attempt Pseudo Barnabas:

    According to pseudo-Barnabas (ought we to really trust a letter that claims to be from another, didn't Paul warn about such letters being circulated? 2 Thessalonians 2:2), we are too wicked (Christians are too wicked???) at present to keep the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns (so we are going to keep Sabbath again in the New Heavens and New Earth, that doesn't sound like people use this quote for). Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday instead. What good does this reasoning do for the cause of Sunday sacredness or holiness if we are too wicked?

    Pseudo Barnabas also teaches the earth ends in the 7,000th year from creation. Do you accept this also?

    You can also see the forgery of Justin Martyr here - Doctrine - Sabbath - William H Shea - The Justin Martyr Forgery About Sabbath And Sunday The First Day Of The Week : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    What do you think spurred the Maccabean Revolt?
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    @coconut theology

    "Francisco Ribera
    (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation."

    The above is all about Ribera writing to counter Martin Luther's accusation that Rome was the Whore of Babylon.
     
  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    He's a protestant. Odds are very high that he's never even heard of the Maccabean Revolt. If it's not in their Bible, they sometimes think it never happened. They certainly don't think it had any significance. Catholics are that way too, but strangely, they have the Maccabean books in their Bibles.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    What Daniel calls the Abomination of Desolation.
     
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