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Featured The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019.

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  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Right but as you said per the Hebrew calendar it's just a number, day 7.
    Some Christian beliefs see this a arbitrary. You choose which day to start your week, work for 6 days a rest on the 7th be it Tuesday, Wednesday, etc... The Roman calendar is incidental. To say the 7th day is Saturday is giving into Pagan traditions.
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yep good point. There will be controversy here I guess but from a Christian viewpoint and for those who believe also in the new testament, JESUS says that the Sabbath was made for man *Mark 2:27 and there was no sin, no jews, no Israel and no plan of salvation and no torah when the Sabbath was made as part of the finished work of creation *Genesis 2:1-3
     
  3. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    If you aren't going top follow all of the old laws and commandments, you should not harp on this one,
     
  4. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    You've already done this: Man made traditions from the Church or the Word of God - Who do you believe and follow?
     
  5. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    I see your point, but accordng to the scripture as shown earlier it is not arbitary. The seventh day of the creation week has been kept unbroken from the beginning to JESUS the creator of the Sabbath, the Apostles after the death and ressurrection of JESUS to all the disciples to this very present day. There is no arbitary day of rest. That is not biblical if you believe and follow God's Word.
     
    #25 3rdAngel, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    No need to top up anything. What is the OP about?
     
  7. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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  8. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Typo....not top, but "to"
     
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  9. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Jesus, in speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, and of the world (see vs 2-3), and shows that persons will still be keeping sabbath the 7th day, from then until now, Jews and others:

    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    Luk_21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.​

    The sabbath of the LORD has always been the 7th day, from the beginning:

    Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    Thus, in the NT, the peoples were still keeping the sabbath, the 7th day:

    Luk_4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.​

    After Jesus rose from the dead, even the Gentiles that repented began to keep sabbath, as foretold (Isaiah 56:1-8; John 10:16, etc):

    Act_13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

    So, when we read in the NT, that Jesus arose on "the first [day] of the week", it is the day which follows the 7th day, the sabbath, and the sabbath follows the preparation day, the 6th day (Exodus 16:5):

    Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
    Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

    Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
    Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
    Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
    Luk 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

    Joh 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
    Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.​

    The timeline is as follows:

    [the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

    Jesus at Lazarus' house in Bethany [Mt. Olivet] – [John 12:1]​

    [the first [day] of the week]

    Jesus Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem, "the next day" from leaving Lazarus' house, Hosanna! - [John 12:12,13; Matthew 21:10; Mark 11:11], goes to the Temple, and after looking around, leaves, since it was close to evening back out unto Mt. Olivet.​

    [the second [day] of the week]

    Jesus comes back, curses the fig tree, goes to the Temple, and cleanses the Temple for the Second [last] time of the Money Changers - [Matthew 21:12,13,17; Mark 11:12,15,16,17,19], and Jesus goes back out.​

    [the third [day] of the week]

    Jesus comes back, the Fig tree is withered up from the roots, goes to the Temple, and has the final teachings to the Pharisees, etc - [Matthew 21:18,23; Mark 11:20,27].

    This was the "two days" before the "Passover" - [Matthew 26:1-2; Mark 14:1; Luke 21:37-38, 22:1].

    Jesus tells the Jewish nation, that their house is forever left desolate, no more fruit again - [Matthew 23:37-39; Luke 13:32-35].

    Jesus said, that He still had to do "cures" and "cast out devils" "to day, tomorrow and the third day" and be done - [Luke 13:32,33]

    Jesus had been "daily" in the Temple - [Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47, 22:53; John 18:20]

    The "today" [Luke 13:32,33]​

    [the fourth [day] of the week]

    The "tomorrow" [Luke 13:32,33]​

    [the fifth [day] of the week]

    The "Third Day" [Luke 13:32,33], being done.​

    [the sixth [day] of the week; preparation]

    Gather twice as much, Christ Jesus the anti-typical Manna, Exodus 16:25,26

    The "spices" "had been" [Mark 16;1] purchased sometime after the Crucifixion and before burial so that they could "prepare" [Luke 23:56] them to bring on the "first [day] of the week" [Luke 24:1], even as we see Joseph of Arimathaea doing for the linen - [Mark 14:46]

    1st Evening Part - [Matthew 26:31,34; Mark 14:27,30]
    1st Morning [Light] Part - [Matthew 27:21; Mark 15:1]

    Abib/Nisan 14th; Christ Jesus our Passover is Sacrificed for us - [1 Corinthians 5:7],​

    [the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD thy God]

    Jesus remained in the Tomb all Sabbath - anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:29,30

    The Disciples were keeping the Sabbath according to the Commandment - [Exodus 20:8-11; Luke 23:54,56]

    2nd Evening and 2nd Morning Parts - [Matthew 27:58-66, 28:1; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:52-53,54; John 19:38-42]

    Abib/Nisan 15th - Seasonal Feast Sabbath [First Day of Unleavened Bread, without corruption] - [Leviticus 23:5-8]​

    [the first [day] of the week]

    Christ Jesus, preserved and Risen - Anti-type Manna - Exodus 16:32-34

    3rd Evening and 3rd Morning Parts, Christ Risen and shown alive - [Matthew 28:1-10; Mark 16:2-20; Luke 24:1-29; John 20:1-23]

    AbibNisan 16th; Christ the Firstfruits/Wavesheaf Offering, Anti-Type Resurrection - [1 Corinthians 15:20,23].

    Jesus was walking with the disciples on the Road to Emmaus on the "first [day] of the week", as the day was closing out, being "the third day since these things" were done [Luke 24:21],​

    [the second [day] of the week]

    Jesus was still walking with the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus as the first [day] of the week was closing, and it becomes Evening - [Luke 24:29,35, etc]
    There is no other way it can be, unless the scripture and timeline, and even history be broken.
     
    #29 Crosstian, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Well-Known Member

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    Yep nice post linking old and new scriptures. Why do you think that the Sabbath is an important issue today in relation to Christianity?
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    So how does this relate to the Roman pagan calendar?
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    OK, this is clearly too specialised for me. I'll leave you to it.
     
  13. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    God foretold to us, the final events of this world, and of the issues which would literally "plague" it.

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
    Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
    God warns us that people would willingly forget their Creator in the last days, and tamper with God's Law, His Commandments, especially the one which points to His authorship of all creation.

    Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

    When people willingly forget God, their Creator, "plagues" will come, for they willingly transgress and seek to change God's Law, as Pharaoh of old did:

    Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.
    Exo 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
    Exo 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
    Exo 5:9 Let there more work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard vain words.
    Those who tamper with God's Law, touch the Ark:

    Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


     
    #33 Crosstian, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  14. calm

    calm Active Member

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    No, it doesn't.
    According to the Bible, the Sabbath is on different days, sometimes on a Saturday, sometimes on a Wednesday and sometimes on a Monday.
    For more information:
    The Sabbath Day is Wrong

    (and besides, the day begins when the sun rises and not when it sets)
     
  15. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    You didn't ask for Roman Pagan, you asked from the Bible. - The Lord's Day, is it really Sunday?


    The Jews even today still keep the 7th day, as Christians have all this time. - 1st Century

    Yet, if you want historical cross-over:

    The Roman Historical record of their dealings with Jews:

    http://thesourcehh.org/sabbath.htm#books

    Sabbath in the East - old version

    Romans:

    S. Julii Frontini (c. AD 40 - AD 103), written in C. AD. 84, see - Libri quatuor Strategematicon : Frontinus, Sextus Julius : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    Libri Quator; Strategematicon; cum notis integris; Francisci Modii, Godescalci Stewechii, Petri Scriverii, & Samuelis Tennulii. His accedunt, cum P. Scriverii, tum aliorum Doctorum ineditae observationes. Curante Francisco Oudendorpio, Qui & suas adnotationes, variasque MStorum lectiones adjecit. Editio Altera, multo auctior & emendatior. Lugduni Batavorum, Apud Sam. et Joann. Luchtmans, MDCCLXXIX [1779].

    "XVII. Divus Augustus Vespasianus Judaeos 54 Saturni die, quo 55 eis nefas est quidquam seriae rei agere, adortus superavit. ...

    ...54 Saturni die] Sic & Pompejus Hierosolyma expugnavit, quia Judaei nolebant se defendere Sabbato, Dione teste in pompejo. Sabbatum quia praecipua caeremonia colebant, etiam jejunio sacrasse [ut ait Justinus 1 [Page 178-179] XXXVI. C. 2.). ..." Page 178-179 - https://archive.org/stream/libriquat...e/178/mode/1up

    https://archive.org/stream/libriquat...e/179/mode/1up

    Translated rendition:

    ""17. Augustus, Vespasian, the Jews on the day of Saturn, 54, 55 in which it is illegal for them to do anything serious matter, attacked them, and overcame them. ...

    ... Saturday, 54] Thus Pompey captured Jerusalem, because the Jews refused to defend himself on a Saturday, a witness in the Dio Pompejo. Sabbath worship ceremony for the chief, even fasting sacrasse [as the Justin 1 [Pages 178-179] 36. C. 2). ... ""​

    Cassius Dio (AD 155 – AD 235)

    Dio's Roman History III

    Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, III; London: William Heinemann; New York: The Macmillan CO. MCMXIV [1914].

    Battle of c. 63 BC

    "... [Page 142-144; Internally Page 125-127] Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty. For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it. As it was, they made an exception of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing [Page 142-144; Internally Page 125-127; Greek text is inbetween; Page 126] no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall. The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously. Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defence, and all the wealth was plundered. The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away.

    This was the course of events at that time in Palestine; for this is the name that has been given from of old to the whole country extending from Phoenicia to Egypt along the inner sea. They have also another name that they have acquired: the country has been named Judaea, and the people themselves Jews. I do not know how this title came to be given them, but it applies also to all the rest of mankind, although of alien race, who affect their customs. This class exists even among the Romans, and though often repressed has increased to a very great extent and has won its way to the right of freedom in its observances. They are distinguished from the rest of mankind in practically every detail of life, and especially by the fact that they do not honour any of the usual gods, but show extreme reverence for one particular divinity. They never had any statue of him even in Jerusalem itself, but believing him to be unnamable and invisible, they worship him in the most extravagant fashion on earth. They built to him a temple [Page 143-145; Internally Page 127-129; Greek text on Page 128] that was extremely large and beautiful, except in so far as it was open and roofless, 1 and likewise dedicated to him the day called the day of Saturn, on which, among many other most peculiar observances, they undertake no serious occupation. ..." [Pages 142-145; Internally Pages 125-129; Greek text is inbetween; Page 126,128] - https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi.../n141/mode/1up

    https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi.../n143/mode/1up

    https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi...y+of+Saturn%22

    Dio's Roman History V

    Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, V; London: William Heinemann LTD; Cambridge, Massachusetts Harvard University Press. MCMLV [1955].

    Battle of c. 36 BC

    "... [Page 398; Internally Page 387]The Jews, indeed, had done much injury to the Romans, for the race is very bitter when aroused to anger, but they suffered far more themselves. The first of them to be captured were those who were fighting for the precinct of their god, and then the rest on the day even then called the day of Saturn.1 And so excessive were they in their devotion to religion that the first set of prisoners, those who had been captured along with the temple, obtained leave from Sosius, when the day of Saturn came round again, and went up into the temple and there performed all the customary rites, together with the rest of the people. These people Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern ..." [Page 398; Internally Page 387] - https://archive.org/stream/L082Cassi.../n398/mode/1up

    Dio's Roman History VIII

    Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, VIII; London: William Heinemann; New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons. MCMXXV [1925].

    Destruction of Jerusalem; AD 70. [even up to the time of Cassius Dio]

    "... [Page 281; Internally 271] Thus was Jerusalem destroyed on the very day of Saturn, the day which even now the Jews reverence most. From that time forth it was ordered that the Jews who continued to observe their ancestral customs should pay and annual tribute of two denarii to Jupiter Capitolinus. ..." [Page 281; Internally Page 271] - https://archive.org/stream/L176Cassi.../n280/mode/1up

    Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 - after AD 117)

    The Histories of Tacitus; Books III, IV, And V. with introduction and notes by A. D. Godley, M.A. Fellow of Magdalen College, Oxford. London Macmillan and Co., Limited; New York: The Macmillan Company. 1907.

    Historarium Lib. V. [Line 15 and onward]

    "... [Page 148; Internally Page 127; IV. Line 15; Beginning 3rd Word] alii honorem eum Saturno haberi, seu principia religionis tradentibus Idaeis, quos *** Saturno pulsos et conditores gentis accepimus, seu quod de septem sideribus, quis res mortales reguntur altissimo orbe et praeceipua potentia stella Saturni feratur ac pleraque caelestium vim suam et cursus setptenos per numeros compleant. ..." [Page 148; Internally Page 127] - https://archive.org/stream/histories.../n148/mode/1up

    "... [Page 290; Internally 269] Notes, V. Chap. 4. ... 17. Saturno: the Greeks and Romans had adopted the Egyptian custom of naming days after the planets, and the day of Saturn corresponded to the Jewish Sabbath. ..." [Page 290; Internally 269] - https://archive.org/stream/histories.../n290/mode/1up

    English translation – Sourced - Beware of the "Lunar Sabbath"

    “... They are said to have devoted the seventh day to rest, because that day brought an end to their troubles. Later, finding idleness alluring, they gave up the seventh year as well to sloth.

    Others maintain that they do this in honor of Saturn; either because their religious principles are derived from the Idaei, who are supposed to have been driven out with Saturn and become the ancestors of the Jewish people; or else because, of the seven constellations which govern the lives of men, the star of Saturn moves in the topmost orbit and exercises peculiar influence, and also because most of the heavenly bodies move round their courses in multiples of seven. ...”​
     
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  16. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures are non-Jews commanded to keep Shabbat.
     
  17. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Thanks for the education. :)
     
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  18. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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  19. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    Isaiah 56:1-8.
     
  20. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    This is talking about converts.
     
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