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Featured The LORD is my shepherd

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, and Jerome, who translated the Hebrew scriptures to Latin in the 4th century C.E, was no great expert in the Hebrew language, and translated the Hebrew 'almah' as 'VIRGO,' and biblical uneducated people, who have never studied the scriptures, in any great detail, believe Jerome's translation meant 'VIRGIN.' Those poor ignorant souls would believe anything.

    “The Greek word parthenos (παρθένος) is ambiguous but the Hebrew term “Almah” [Unmarried Female] is absolute, and is erroneously translated from Isaiah 7: 14, to Greek in Matthew 1:23; as “virgin,” whereas according to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, the Hebrew term “Almah,” carries the meaning, (Concealment---unmarried female.)”

    The word “Virgin” in reference to the mother of Jesus was not introduced until the Latin Bible ‘The Vulgate’ was translated to English, when the Latin word ‘VIRGO’ was translated to Virgin. For just like the early Greek language, the Latin did not have a specific term for ‘VIRGIN’, their word “Virgo” refers to any young woman of marriageable age, whether or not she had previous sexual relations with a man.

    Isaiah 7: 14; Jewish Translation: “Therefore the Lord, of his own, shall give you a sign; behold the 'almah,' ‘YOUNG WOMAN’ [IS WTH CHILD] and she shall bear a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.”

    A young unmarried woman (An almah) can be a virgin, but an almah, unmarried woman who is pregnant cannot be a virgin.

    In translating the Hebrew words of the prophet Isaiah, that an “Almah” an “unmarried female” 'WHO IS PREGNANT' and will bear a son,” into Greek, which unlike the Hebrew language, does not have a specific term for ‘virgin,’ the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, correctly used the Greek word ‘Parthenos,’ which carries a basic meaning of ‘girl,’ or unmarried youth, and denotes ‘virgin’ only by implication.

    To translate something from the Hebrew to the Greek, or from any language to another, one must not lose the essence of the original, and the original was, that “An unmarried woman IS WITH CHILD and will bear a son, etc.”

    In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible. A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England, all translate Isaiah 7: 14; “A young Woman IS WITH CHILD, and she will bear a son.”

    Also The Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition, with imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon reads, Isaiah 7: 14; “A young woman WHO IS PREGNANT will have a son, etc.”

    As these religious bodies, all now accept that Isaiah was not referring to a virgin in that famous passage, they must now accept that the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, who were forced to use the Greek term “Parthenos” in reference to Isaiah’s prophecy, were in no way implying that the pregnant Mary, was still a virgin.

    Matthew 1: 22-23; should now read; ‘Now all this happened to make come true what the Lord had said through the prophet [Isaiah],’ “An unmarried woman, [an almah] who is pregnant will bear a son, etc.

    Mark, who is believed to be the son of Peter, and John the beloved disciple, both ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant, and begin their account of the salvation, with the baptism when he was filled with the spirit of the Lord God our savior, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, this day I have begotten thee."

    Galatians 4: 29; At that time, the child born according to the flesh [Ishmael] despised and persecuted him, [Isaac] who was born according to God’s promise and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

    Isaac, who is the prototype of Jesus, was born of a brother/sister relationship and born of God’s promise according to the power/workings of the Holy Spirit, and Isaac was the biological son of Abraham and his half sister Sarah, who were both sired by Terah: just as Jesus, who was born of God’s promise according to the power of the Holy Spirit, was the biological son of Joseph and his half sister Mary, who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli.

    Isaac, was offered up as a sacrifice by his father on the same mountain that Jesus, who had been chosen as the heir to our Fathers throne, was offered up. But both lived on, as God had prepared a replacement sacrifice for them. The replacement for Isaac, was a sheep, the replacement for Jesus, was the one-year old unblemished lamb of God, [Enoch] who, at the age of 365, the number of days in a calendar year, was taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as his successor, to serve God before the body of Adam/mankind into all eternity.

    Just as Isaac the promised seed of Abraham was born through the union of Abraham and his half-sister Sarah according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, so too, the man Jesus, the reality of God’s promise to Abraham, was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit and born of the union of Mary and her half-brother Joseph, who were both sired by Heli=Alexander Helios.

    Would you care to see how Isaac, who is a prototype of Jesus, was born of God’s promise according to the workings of the Holy Spirit?
     
    #161 The Anointed, Jul 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    We adhere to the Hebrew meaning of the word. The young woman was a "maiden". What is a "maiden voyage"? They understood the meaning of the word....a virgin.

    Because virginity was so important in Israel, proof of it had to be offered on the wedding night....and kept by the girl's parents as proof that she was indeed a virgin when she married and her husband could not later claim that she was not a virgin when they married. (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)

    So it stands to reason that this unmarried girl would of necessity be a virgin. Such was the respect that Joseph had for this special blessing bestowed upon his wife, that he did not have marital relations with Mary until after she gave birth to Jesus. (Matthew 1:25) The life implanted in Mary's womb was placed there by God who transferred the life of his son from heaven to the earth. You think he can't do that?

    She can most certainly be a virgin if God's spirit was upon her....do you doubt God's ability to produce a human son to achieve the fulfillment of his purpose....are you placing some kind of limitation of God? If so...why?
     
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Deeje wrote: "do you doubt God's ability to produce a human son to achieve the fulfillment of his purpose?"

    Nope! Our Lord God and savior, (The Son of man and only begotten son of God) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, chose the man Jesus as his heir and successor on the day that he was baptised, when the spirit of the Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my son, This Day I have begotten thee."

    Just as the man Enoch was chosen as the heir and successor to the throne of the Most High in the creation. (The Lord of Spirits is the son and heir of the Lord of creatures) Enoch was chosen to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity.

    Enoch the most high in the creation, who was in the valley of man (the spiritual dimension that co-exists within our three dimension universe) for three days, or rather three thousand years, was reborn on earth by the human parents, Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios= Heli,

    But you can continue to believe that God has never been able to resurrect a human being to everlasting life, but only his immortal son, who is believed by those who have been deceived into believing in the false teaching of the virgin birth, to be an immortal being, who was the co-creator of this boundless cosmos, while I believe that God has raised a human being, who is a descendant of Adam. and will raise all those who are united to that man also.

    Jesus was the collective consciousness of all the righteous spirits who had paid the blood price for any mistakes that the had made while developing in the flesh. and had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham, those spirits dwelt behind the veil of the flesh, within the innermost sanctuary of their earthly Temple 'The Man Jesus.'

    Jesus, in who slept the spirits of the righteous, who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham, was resurrected on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits,” HE was not the first fruit (Singular) but the first fruits (Plural) to be harvested from the body of mankind. He was the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, who is the Spirit, that according to our concept of one direction linear time, is still currently developing within the androgynous body of mankind, and who pays the penalty for the sins of the body in which he develops, as all must do.

    When on the cross, Jesus gave up his spirit, Enoch, who can never die, and who was the compilation of all those righteous spirit, and who was the duplication of the man Jesus, ceased to be an individual entity by releasing all those spirits upon which he (The cornerstone to the Earthly temple of God on earth,) did, by releasing all those righteous spirits, whose graves were opened, and three days later, those saints came out of their graves and entered the city and revealed themselves as the risen body of Christ. 'The most high in the creation,' the one who had been anointed as the heir to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and they will rule with Jesus for the thousand year Sabbath, which is the future reality of the weekly Sabbath.
     
    #163 The Anointed, Jul 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    My goodness...where on earth do you get this stuff? Did you make it up or do you have others who believe this? Who are our brotherhood?
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    I get it all from the Holy Scriptures. Why? From where do you think the first fruits that were harvested from the body of mankind came from.

    I seem to remember that you gave some ridiculous explanation as to the saints who came out of their graves three day after Jesus was crucified, and went into the city and revealed themselves.to many.

    Would you mind repeating that ridiculous statement, otherwise i will have to go back through the forum and find it myself/
     
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well I guess you'll have to go and find it unless you'd like to identify your brotherhood so that I can research their doctrines and figure out how many there are of you who share these views.....:D
    I have never heard of half the stuff you post....its not from any scripture that I am familiar with.
     
  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    My beliefs may not be familiar to those who are confined to the limited scripture compiled in the canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, but my beliefs are based on the words of the Lord.

    According to the OT canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, Gen 11:12, and 1 Chronicles 1: 18; state that Arpachshad is the father of Shelah, whereas Luke 3: 35-36, reveals that Kainam/Cainam, is the father of Shelah. Do you accuse Luke of Lying. or do you accept, that for Luke to find the truth, he had to search the scriptures, that the church of Constantine would reject in the compilation of their sacred canon?

    And I seem to remember that your explanation of the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind, who were resurrected, and came out of their graves on the first day after the weekly Sabbath that followed the Passover, which is the festival of “First Fruits, weren't actually resurrected at all, but that their dead bodies were spat out of the graves by the supposed earthquake at that time, which was not an earthquake at all, but an air blast from the explosion of the incoming heavenly object, that had remained between the sun and Jerusalem, casting its shadow over the city for three hours, before exploding some 5 to 10 miles above the earth.at the precise moment that Jesus gave up his spirit, causing the mountains and the temple to rock, tearing the curtain to the Holy of holies from top to bottom.

    My brotherhood, as you call them, have no name, we are merely a community of serious biblical students who meet on most weekends, drinking and eating, and with great Joy praising the lord as we share our beliefs,
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree with much of what you say here. But for Jesus Christ to be given the qualities of his Father, such as goodness, faithfulness, judgment, and even life [John 5:26], the conclusion must be that Jesus Christ is no ordinary man. He was a sinless man who possessed the 'fulness of the godhead bodily' [Colossians 2:9]. This makes him a unique being, the one and only mediator between God and man.

    A mediator is not a mediator of one. A mediator must stand in the middle. How does Jesus stand in the middle between God and men? The answer is given by saying that God [the Spirit of Christ, the Word] occupies the body of a righteous human being, namely Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus, of course, had no human father, which enabled him to avoid inherited sin, but he was, nonetheless, a man of flesh and blood.

    Once resurrected, and incorruptible, Jesus Christ is truly our Lord and God, as Thomas realized.

    'And there was given him [Jesus Christ] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations,and languages, should serve him:' [Daniel 7:14]

    Who is it that we should 'serve'?

    The big problem I have with unitarianism is that it denies that God has come to earth to dwell amongst men. God cannot truly be called our saviour and redeemer without coming to earth, IMO. I believe God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I'm a trinitarian because the Holy Spirit has led me to this understanding of the scriptures. I am not an apologist for the behaviour of other men!

    I think it's also important to clarify a few points. To start with, I am not one of those who believe that Mary is the mother of God. Mary was the mother of Jesus; and Jesus is the name given to her baby son. This means that Jesus is not the eternal Word of God. He was born body, soul and spirit like any other man, but with the difference that his true father, the giver of life, overshadowed Mary to bring about her conception.

    The point at which the Spirit of Christ [the Word] enters the body of Jesus is baptism, when Jesus is about thirty years old. Up until baptism, Jesus lived as an obedient Jew under the law. It is at baptism that the Spirit of God comes to earth to dwell in the temple. From the time of baptism, Jesus Christ becomes the mediator, both Son of man and Son of God as one.

    I believe Jesus spent about thirty three and a half years in a corruptible body, dwelling amongst men on earth. At crucifixion, he died, and the Spirit that had come upon Jesus at baptism returned to the Father. Three days and nights later, the Spirit of God returned to raise Jesus from the dead, and Jesus was raised up an immortal body, but with the same human soul and spirit as before. In his resurrected body, Jesus Christ ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. It is from the heavenly throne of God that the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father and Son to those who repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. As such, it is through the Holy Spirit that God's plan of redemption is achieved.

    It's important for me to make these points if I am to answer all the questions you raise. Understanding the viewpoint of the mediator is crucial to understanding Jesus Christ's relationships. Sometimes Jesus Christ speaks from the perspective a man, but sometimes [usually in John's Gospel] from the perspective of the son of God.

    Bearing this in mind, which question would you like me to attempt to answer first?
     
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Tell me, is the worship that is accorded the Father different (in the Greek text) to the worship accorded the Son? If you compare John 4:23,24 with say Matthew 2:11 or Mark 5:6, you'll see that the same Greek word (proskun) is used for 'worship'. As Deeje admits, it's only context that can make a difference as to how one views the worship; which to me amounts to an admission that the text is being interpreted subjectively when you distinguish between 'service' and 'sacred service'.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply. Yes, agree God ' gave ' immortality to Jesus as per John 5:26. This to me was 'after' God resurrected dead Jesus - Acts 2:27.
    Yes, Jesus was No ordinary man like the rest of us sinners. Jesus having his God as Father meant Jesus was born with perfection as per Hebrews 4:15 B.
    As Adam was created without sin, however Adam used his free-will choice to break God's Law, whereas Jesus was faithful - Hebrews 9:24-28.
    Romans compares Jesus with Adam - Romans 5:12-21
    Yes, Jesus is our Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5

    Often we hear a person say, "Oh my God ! " in front of a news reporter, and we know that person is Not calling the Reporter as being their God.
    Thomas already knew the verse at John 20:17 B before he said the words at verse 28.
    To me, the resurrected Jesus is clear that he would be ascending to his Father and to his God .....
    This is why later the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to John at Revelation 3:12.

    Yes, agree ' serve ' Jesus as per Daniel 7:14, but ' serve ' does Not have to mean worship .
    Jesus instructed as to who to worship at John 4:23-24.
    Jesus and his disciples ' served ' when Jesus instructed to ' serve ' bread and fish to the crowds.
    When we obey Jesus' instructions as found at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 we are serving Jesus' spiritual interests in doing God's will.
     
    #171 URAVIP2ME, Jul 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Again, thank you for your reply. However, No I do Not find the same Greek word at the ^ above ^ posted verses.
    I find the word for ' obeisance ' is used at Matthew and Mark. Obeisance does Not have to mean worship but a respectful bowing down.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    IOW, you don't share many of Christendom's teachings....? So what "words of the Lord" are you referring to?

    Is it your belief that the Bible (as the world knows it) is not correct in all its teachings and that those who subscribe to your beliefs are of the opinion that scripture is only of benefit if it agrees with your own interpretation of things....? Do you pick out what supports your beliefs and ignore the rest?

    The Roman Church by its very name is a product of man. No church that identifies with any nation on earth can possibly be "Christian" and no "church (denomination or whatever you want to call it) that doesn't have an international brotherhood can be either. Jesus said we were to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations" before the foretold "end" would come. (Matthew 24:14) No local group can do that. So tell me a bit more about this brotherhood of yours.....does it exist anywhere but where you live?

    Your explanation does not take into account the true reason for why the temple curtain was "rent in two from top to bottom"....nor does it align with what is said in the Bible.
    The symbolic significance of this is not something to ignore because, with his death and resurrection, the way to heaven was opened for others to follow Jesus. Remember that he said that 'where he was going they could not come'? (John 7:33-34) That curtain was the barrier between the Holy and the Most Holy compartments of the Temple....an earthly arrangement that pictured the grand spiritual Temple in heaven where Christ returned to offer up the value of his sacrifice. Flesh was the barrier between heaven and earth. With his death, Christ removed the barrier because he was "the firstborn from the dead"....no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

    Hebrews 9:24....
    "For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf."

    As to the "firstfruits".....those who were anointed to rule with Christ in heaven had to wait until the last days for the resurrection to begin. They "slept" in their graves until Christ was to come back for them. That means that no one was resurrected on the day Jesus died. He did not return to heaven for 40 days.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....
    "Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

    That is, I am sure, very enjoyable for you all....but who leads you in worship? Who determines your beliefs and who authorizes the sources from which you glean them? If they were the truth then surely wouldn't they be available to all.....I have never seen half of what you post written in the Bible....so for you, it is obviously NOT the complete word of God. When Jesus said "it is written", he always pointed to only one source. How many sources do you point to?

    Can you tell me why he did not supply this knowledge to everyone? How many people on this planet cannot access the Bible? How many people in the world even know that your group exists?
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    By transferring the life of his son in heaven to the womb of a Jewish virgin, God made Jesus a perfect equivalent of the once sinless Adam. After all, redemption was only necessary because of the debt that Adam left to all his offspring.....a debt that no other man could pay.
    God's law was that equivalency is what balanced the scales of justice, so a perfect sinless life was required to be offered for the perfect sinless life that Adam lost for his children.

    He possessed all the qualities of his heavenly Father at whose side he had learned everything he knew. He was "before all things", meaning that there was no one created before him. He then assisted his Father in the wonderful project of creation.

    Using the scriptures, what do you believe is the purpose of our existence here?

    What I cannot understand is how Jesus can be God AND a Mediator between God and men....?
    If Jesus is God then why do we not need a mediator between us and him as the one who delivers our prayers to God?

    Why do we need a Mediator in the first place?

    We should serve the same God that Jesus served....the same God who gave Jesus all his authority. (Matthew 28:18) Why would God need to give authority to himself?

    As Mediator, Jesus is the one through whom the reconciliation must come. (2 Corinthians 5:18-19) He sent out his apostles with a ministry of reconciliation, offering obedient ones a way to come back to God even in their sinful state.
    Since Jesus is the "servant" of God, and we also serve the same God, how can Jesus BE God? It makes no sense. (Acts 3:13)

    Since both God and the one he sent are both saviors, the one who sends the savior must be the principle one.

    Jesus was the son of God from his birth according to Gabriel's words to Mary. So at his baptism, he entered the last phase of his life as a human being. When the heavens were opened and he received God's spirit, it must have been an amazing revelation to him of his former life with the Father. He went in to the wilderness for 40 days and nights to prepare for this final mission.

    If Jesus was in a corruptible body, then the ransom is not paid. This was God's most trusted son, one he could rely on to rescue Adam's children born into sin and death through no fault on their part. He had to be the absolute equivalent of Adam to redeem mankind. If God had paid the ransom that would have been a ridiculous overpayment....besides which fact that mere humans cannot kill an immortal God.

    He had free will and could have disobeyed his God, as satan did.....but it was unthinkable to selfishly fail to rescue the very ones he had helped to create.....he loved them like God did. (John 3:16)

    This is where you depart from scripture and into invented ideas....IMO.
    Where does it speak of Jesus' soul and spirit, or being given an immortal physical body?
    How long was it before Jesus returned to heaven?
    Please tell me how God's plan of redemption works if Jesus was God? And please use scripture to explain.

    Who resurrected Jesus? (Acts 2:24)

    Jesus said that he would be "in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and nights". Did Jonah leave the fish and go somewhere else? Or was he inside that fish the whole time?

    Jesus' resurrection was exactly as the scriptures had foretold. He was dead, "forsaken" by his Father so that at that final moment he could pay the ransom for mankind. He was placed in a tomb and a huge stone rolled at the entrance with guards posted so that no one could steal his body and claim he had been resurrected, but by the third day, the stone was rolled away, the guards were nowhere to be seen and Jesus later appeared to Mary M in the garden.

    Jesus was not raised as a human, but as a spirit, according to Peter. (1 Peter 3:18)
    Spirits as we know, are invisible unless they materialize....as seen when Gabriel delivered his message to Mary, and the visit of the angels to Abraham at Mamre. So Jesus, as a spirit, materialized as well after his resurrection, "appearing" to them on many occasions, but not always in the same body. On one occasion his disciples recognized him by the way he broke the bread and he literally disappeared before their eyes. (Luke 24:31)
    After spending three and a half years as their constant companion, Jesus did not dwell with his apostles after his resurrection. He was no longer a human, but because of God's laws concerning communication with spirits, he always appeared as the angels did, in human form.

    Jesus was both...the "son of man" means that he was God's son in human form.
    And I agree that his role as Mediator needs to be clearly understood.

    From post #136....if you'd like to....I've thrown in a few more but its up to you.....

    "According to Jesus, when he comes as judge, many who think that they are sheep will be completely rejected by him (Matthew 7:21-23).....but how is that possible? Jesus says that 'he never knew them'.....NEVER means "not ever". So from what point are these ones no longer recognizable as his own?

    What is there about these ones that they all have in common? Could it be that they are worshipping the wrong God and relying on "powerful works" and such to prove their "Christianity"?....but failing in their Christians assignment?

    Why do you think that their view of themselves so different to how Jesus views them?

    What does it mean to "do the will of the Father" that these ones have failed to do?

    Why are there "few" on the road to life"? (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

    We have to know the answers to these questions....don't we?
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Response to post #173.

    You are correct in saying that I don’t share many of the teaching of the Roman Church of Emperor Constantine, the mother of so many daughter so-called Christian denominations, which were spawned from her false teachings before breaking away from their mother body to create families of their own

    And you are correct in stating that it is my belief that the Bible (as the world knows it) is not correct in all its teachings. For although Jesus said we were to "preach the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to ALL the nations" before the foretold "end" would come. After he left this earth and ascended to the throne of our heavenly Father, where he must remain until God puts all enemies at his feet, John the beloved disciple warned us in 1 John 4: 1; “My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit, (My words are spirit) but test them to find out if the spirit [teachings] they have come from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc.”

    Then in the 2nd letter of John verses 7-10; he says; “Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ.”

    And we know where to find the teaching that Jesus was not a true human being, “Born of the seed of Adam” which has been spread ALL OVER THE WORLD.

    Deeje wrote: “The Roman Church by its very name is a product of man. No church that identifies with any nation on earth can possibly be "Christian" and no "church (denomination or whatever you want to call it) that doesn't have an international brotherhood can be either. (Matthew 24:14) No local group can do that.

    Matthew 15: 24; But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    According to you, [No church that identifies with any nation on earth can possibly be "Christian"] Amazing the stuff that you believe. We know where we can find an international brotherhood of those disciples of the Antichrist, who reject the fact that Jesus came as a human being descended from the seed of Adam

    But please tell us this, “Where would we find the international brotherhood of Jesus, the bio son of Joseph the son of Heli, who is a descendant of Nathan the Levite, son of Bathsheba and adopted son of King David?

    John 3: 13; And no one has gone up to heaven, except he who had walked with God, and at the age of 365 was taken by God, and was anointed as the heir to the throne of the Most High in the creation and translated in order that he should not experience death, who later descended from his high point in time and was chosen by Abraham as his God, who then said to Abraham, ”In blessing, I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply you.” From that day, all the spirits of the righteous, who had paid the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made while in the flesh, were separated from the unrighteous spirits, to find rest in the bosom of Abraham.

    Over these who dwelt within the innermost sanctuary, behind the veil of the flesh of the body of the man Jesus, the earthly temple, that was filled with the spirit of the anointed one, the second death had no power.

    Where do you think that those saints, (The first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind) who came out of their graves three days after Jesus was crucified, which was the day of the festival of first fruits and entered the city and revealed themselves as the risen anointed one, are today?

    The Good News was preached to them by the spirit of the dead body of Jesus, in order that they might live in their spiritual lives like that of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But this is beyond the ability to comprehend by one who is as yet still being fed milk.

    Deeje wrote: “When Jesus said "it is written", he always pointed to only one source. How many sources do you point to?”

    From which source did Luke discover that Kainam was the father of Shelah? Not from your canon.

    Perhaps Luke may have studied from scripture that is not included in your canon, such as the book of Jubilees [Chapter 8] 1 In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu’eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she 2 bare him a son in the third year in this week, and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for 3 himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and 4 stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was 5 afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year he begat a son, and 6 called his name Shelah; for he said: ’Truly I have been sent.’

    The author of Hebrews 11: 5; says that it was by faith that kept Enoch from dying. Instead he was taken up to God and translated in order that he should not experience death. From where did the author of Hebrews source that information? Not from your canon.

    "The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

    And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

    And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation: CHRIST=The anointed one]

    And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones. Enoch the Lord of spirits is the heir and successor of the Lord of creatures, and it is he who serves God before the body of Adam into all eternity.

    Jude the half brother to Jesus Quotes verbatim from the book of Enoch, which todays so-called Christians have rejected.

    From where did the disciples source the information that the sons of God. who abandoned their own original habitat, are now chained in darkness?

    Enoch was escorted to the ends of time, where he witnessed the heavens burn up and fall like massive columns of fire, beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss, which Enoch describes as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which there was absolutely nothing.

    Peter speaks of this universe that is destined to be burned in 1 Peter 3: 10; “But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that Day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up and be destroyed, and the earth with everything in it will vanish.” From where did Peter source this information?.

    I could go on and on, but why should I waste my time?


     
    #175 The Anointed, Jul 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your comments.

    There are, however, a number of things I disagree with here.
    John 5:26 is saying more than that God gave immortality to Jesus. John 5:26 is saying that Jesus Christ can give life to others; life is his to give, just as the Father has life to give.

    As regards the comparison of Adam with Jesus, 1 Corinthians 15:45-50 provides an interesting distinction.
    'And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    As is the earthy, such are they that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.'

    Then, there is the question of Thomas. I am quite sure Thomas' exclamation, My Lord and my God, is not a vacuous remark. God's inspired word is far too meaningful to contain throw away remarks.

    As regards 'service', I think the repeated use of the same word in Greek is self-explanatory. 'Service' means following and doing the will of another. A servant follows and does the will of his master. Daniel 7:14 although written in Aramaic, makes it absolutely clear that we are to follow Jesus Christ and do his bidding. What is worship if it is not service from the heart?

    I have said to Deeje that I will try to answer some of his questions and objections. These questions may be similar to the one's you have raised.
     
    #176 Redemptionsong, Jul 22, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Hi Deeje,
    You asked about the purpose of our existence.
    I believe that our purpose is to do the will of God [Ephesians 5:1,2], which is the will of Jesus Christ. If we abide in Christ, we do the Father's will [John 15:4].
    I believe that, day to day, we should follow the lead of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit leads us in love and truth [1 Thessalonians 4:1-12]

    You asked why we need a mediator.
    We need a mediator to bring in a better covenant [Hebrews 8:6; 12:24]. The covenant of Jesus Christ is a covenant of mercy and grace, and a covenant of salvation [Luke 2:30]. This cannot be said of the law, which acts only as a schoolmaster [Galatians 3:24].

    You asked why God would give authority to himself.
    The Father passes authority to the Son because they are both of the same Spirit. Jesus, in his soul, listens to the Word and acts on it [John 8:28-32]. Jesus receives the authority of the Father through the indwelling Spirit.

    You asked how Jesus could be the servant of God, and God.
    The answer is that as 'mediator', Jesus is fully man (servant, Son of man) and fully God (Son of God). [Galatians 3:20]

    You asked where scripture speaks of Jesus as having a soul (mind) and spirit.
    All men have a body, soul and spirit. Job 32:8 says, 'But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding'. In Luke 1:80, we are told that Jesus 'waxed strong in spirit', a reference to Jesus' own spirit (of understanding) because the Holy Spirit of God had not been given at that time.

    You asked if Jesus was in a corruptible body.
    A natural corruptible body is a body made of flesh and blood. It is born, and it usually dies [1 Corinthians 15:42-44]. Jesus most definitely experienced death of the body. Jonah chapter 2 gives an account of Jesus' soul in death.

    You asked if Jesus had an immortal 'physical' body.
    After resurrection, Jesus had a spiritual body, which I would not like to call physical, except in the sense that for a while (forty days) he could be touched, and could even eat fish and honeycomb [Luke 24:36-53]. In this same passage, the risen Lord is worshipped [proskun] by the disciples [verse 52].

    You asked who it is that 'knows' Jesus, and does the will of the Father.
    To begin with, we can see the equality in knowledge between Father and Son from the words, 'As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father:' [John 10:15].
    1 Corinthians 2:11 takes us further in understanding our relationship with the Son and Father. 'For what man knoweth the things of a man , save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but [by] the Spirit of God.'
    If you read the rest of this chapter [1 Corinthians 2] you will see that it's impossible to know and please God without having received the Spirit of God into your heart. Hence the teaching that to please God we must worship ('serve') in 'spirit and in truth'. To do this we must be 'born-again', and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Hello Redemptionsong, and thank you for your responses and the sincerity with which you posted them. :) It is much appreciated.

    I will break my responses up so that we can concetrate on one point at a time, if that's OK with you...?

    My questions go much deeper than your comments unfortunately. I am an avid researcher so I never take anything at face value....I have to dig deep to the roots...to get at the heart of the matter. Surface knowledge is not a firm basis for building our beliefs, IMO. In fact the old saying is true...."a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

    In asking the purpose of our existence, I was going back to Eden.
    e.g. what was God's mandate to the first humans whom he created? Why were they there and what did he tell them to do. From this platform, I believe everything else is grown.
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Again my question is much deeper than that.
    I want to know why, if sin is the barrier between God and man, then why is sin not a barrier between us and Jesus, if he is God's equal?

    God had a close relationship with Adam whilst he was educating him in the garden...it was one on one, with no need for a mediator. So digging deeper, if Adam and his wife had simply obeyed their Creator and told satan to 'get lost' like Jesus did, (as possessors of free will they had that option) would the services of a redeemer have ever been necessary? This again ties in with our purpose here and why that purpose was interrupted by an act of disobedience?

    If we understand what happened in Eden, then we can build an understanding of what would have happened if sin had not taken place...this then forms a picture of God's first purpose...the very reason for our existence. I hope you can follow my reasoning here...

    If the Father needs to "give" authority to his son, then the son is not equal to his Father. The one bestowing authority is greater than the one receiving it. If Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time, his receiving authority from the Father makes no sense. He would already have full authority as God.

    I hope you can see how illogical that is. A servant is not greater than his Master. A servant is commanded by his Master who has absolute authority over him. There can be no equality here.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Jesus was 100% human because he had to be. Your username incorporates "redemption" so can you tell me how redemption works in your understanding....how the law on redemption in Israel was understood in connection with Jesus Christ?

    Sons of Adam have a corruptible body made of imperfect flesh, subject to sin and death....Jesus as a creation of his Father both in heaven and on earth, was perfect and sinless, just like Adam was when God created him.

    Jesus is called the "last Adam" because he alone had the "price" to pay the ransom. A perfect, sinless life was lost for all of Adam's children. Adam died for his own sin, but there was no perfect sinless life to redeem his offspring, left a debt than none of them could pay....hence why Jesus had to come from outside the now defective human race.

    I have to ask if you understand the ransom and how Christ's death, redeemed all those born of Adam's inherited sin? (Romans 5:12)

    So you can subscribe to the idea that Jesus was raised in a spirit body, able to materialize so that his disciples could touch him and be in his physical presence, but only when he "appeared" to them?
    Angels (spirit beings) had done this for centuries, so is it beyond the realms of possibility for you?

    We have already discussed "proskyneo"......scripturally, it does not always mean worship. Jesus directed all worship to his Father. In his reply to the devil Jesus said... “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Luke 4:5-8)
    He was quoting Deuteronomy 10:20, where the tetragrammaton is clearly seen. He directed worship to Jehovah, not to himself.
     
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