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The LORD is my shepherd

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Where does it say in scripture that Jehovah is 'the principal savior'? Certainly, Isaiah 43:11 says nothing of the sort. It says, 'I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.'

There is no saviour beside God. Yet, you say that Jesus Christ is your saviour. How can this be?

Now look carefully at the words you use to explain this difficulty. You say, 'Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called "our savior", even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah'.

'AGENT OF JEHOVAH'? What's that all about?!

I'm clear in my own mind that the Spirit upon Jesus in the synagogue in Nazareth [Luke 4:18] was the Spirit of the Lord without 'measure' [John 3:34]. How can Jesus have had the Spirit without measure and not have been acting with the full authority of his Father? This was, indeed, the presence of God in a temple of God's own making.

When Jesus was resurrected, Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God'. Was this a mistake?

How can you honour the Father as your LORD, if you don't honour Jesus as your Lord? How can you honour Jesus Christ as your Lord unless God be in him?

John 5:20-23. 'For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.'

Thomas Didymus Jude, the half brother to Jesus, did say 'My Lord and my God,' which was a mistake, because on the day that our Lord God and savior had resurrected the temple in which he revealed himself to us, the risen Jesus, who was the compilation of all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham and over whom the second death had no power, said to his wife, Mary Magdalene, in John 20: 17, "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet ascended to 'THE' Father, (Our Father who is in heaven) but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. Do you believe Jesus or Thomas Jude who is said to be the 'TWIN?"

Just as mankind developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too, the 'Son of Man' develops within the womb of the androgynous body of Eve, who has become the body of mankind. As long as the body of mankind lives, Eve Lives.

All have sinned and all must die once (The death of the body, which is the first death) then go off into judgement. The righteous spirits who have paid the blood price for any mistakes that they have made while in the flesh, for which they are truly repentant, are separated from the unrighteous spirits/ minds, and find rest in Christ, 'The anointed one,' over these the second death, which is that of the Mind/Spirit that had developed within the physical womb that was returned to the elements from which it was created, has no power.

We all must pay the blood price for the sins of the flesh in which we developed. And the death of 'The Son of Man' who is born sinless, is the sacrifice that pays the penalty for the sins of the flesh in which he developed, as the prophet said in Psalms 51: 5; while in the power of the spirit; "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me."

It was 'The Son of Man' who chose the man Jesus as his heir and successor and filled him with his words as revealed in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19, The words that Jesus was commanded to say, which were the words of 'The Son of Man.'

While on the cross as Jesus the servant of our Lord God and savior, the Most High in the creation, Jesus, who was obedient even to his cruel death on the stake, gave up his spirit crying out, "My God, my God why have you abandoned me, 'The Son of Man' who cannot die, ceased to be an individual entity by releasing all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to him, (The cornerstone) to the new temple of light, which is to replace God's old physical tent, wherein, behind the veil of the flesh, within the innermost sanctuary, dwells our spiritual son, who evolves on the parental spirits that are gathered to him.

At the moment that Jesus gave up his spirit, the graves of the saints were opened, and three days later, they came out of their graves and entered the city and showed themselves as the risen Christ, who had been taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as the heir and successor to the Most High, and translated in order that he should never see death.

From the book of Enoch the prophet 37: 4; "Til the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given to me."

Enoch, who was in the valley of Man for three days, or rather, three thousand years, before being reborn on earth and over him, the second death had no power.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Hi Deeje,

I was thinking about the implications of your belief, and the following passage came to mind; 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.'

In the light of this verse, do you believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of worship now?

Well, since this was the the words of Jesus to the devil after his request for Jesus to give him one act of worship in exchange for "all the kingdoms of the world".....no.

Jesus in saying "it is written" was quoting OT scripture to answer the devil's temptations. In this instance he was quoting Deuteronomy 10:20 which in the Tanakh says....

"You shall fear the Lord, your God, worship Him, and cleave to Him and swear by His Name. כאֶת־יְהֹוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֶ֛יךָ תִּירָ֖א אֹת֣וֹ תַֽעֲבֹ֑ד וּב֣וֹ תִדְבָּ֔ק וּבִשְׁמ֖וֹ תִּשָּׁבֵֽעַ:"

Since the Tanakh incorporates the divine name in the Hebrew, (יְהֹוָ֧ה) Jesus is saying that it is Jehovah יְהֹוָ֧ה we must serve and "him only" that we should serve. Jesus is not Jehovah.

I understand that the word often rendered "worship" in Greek (proskyneō) has two meanings....1) worship given to the true God....and 2) obeisance given as an act of honor and respect to someone deserving of it. To apply only one meaning can make a right mess of our understanding of whom we are supposed to worship.

Proskyneō corresponds closely with the Hebrew shachah to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures, and to worship given to God or a deity.

It is used to describe what Abraham rendered to the sons of Heth....
Genesis 23:7..."And Abraham arose and prostrated himself to the people of the land, to the sons of Heth." (Tanakh) Here the Hebrew shachah is clearly not "worship".

Another example...Matthew ch 2 where the Babylonian magi were bringing gifts to Jesus after following "his star". They had already said that they were searching for the new King of the Jews which enraged Herod, who then plotted to kill the child who looked to be a threat to his own dynasty.
So when the magi found the child in a house with his parents, they did "proskyneō" to him. Were they searching for a god, or were they bringing gifts to a royal child, as was their custom? Clearly they did not render worship to an infant.

So my interpretation of scripture is founded on well researched information, not on biased renderings in translations that do not keep up with information related to how various verses in the scriptures should be understood in the light or original language meanings. This, I believe is very important. The devil is out to mislead and misinterpretation of scripture has many "Christians" barking up the wrong tree IMO......I used to be one of them. I am now an avid researcher and I love it.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Well, since this was the the words of Jesus to the devil after his request for Jesus to give him one act of worship in exchange for "all the kingdoms of the world".....no.

Jesus in saying "it is written" was quoting OT scripture to answer the devil's temptations. In this instance he was quoting Deuteronomy 10:20 which in the Tanakh says....

"You shall fear the Lord, your God, worship Him, and cleave to Him and swear by His Name. כאֶת־יְהֹוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֶ֛יךָ תִּירָ֖א אֹת֣וֹ תַֽעֲבֹ֑ד וּב֣וֹ תִדְבָּ֔ק וּבִשְׁמ֖וֹ תִּשָּׁבֵֽעַ:"

Since the Tanakh incorporates the divine name in the Hebrew, (יְהֹוָ֧ה) Jesus is saying that it is Jehovah יְהֹוָ֧ה we must serve and "him only" that we should serve. Jesus is not Jehovah.

I understand that the word often rendered "worship" in Greek (proskyneō) has two meanings....1) worship given to the true God....and 2) obeisance given as an act of honor and respect to someone deserving of it. To apply only one meaning can make a right mess of our understanding of whom we are supposed to worship.

Proskyneō corresponds closely with the Hebrew shachah to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures, and to worship given to God or a deity.

It is used to describe what Abraham rendered to the sons of Heth....
Genesis 23:7..."And Abraham arose and prostrated himself to the people of the land, to the sons of Heth." (Tanakh) Here the Hebrew shachah is clearly not "worship".

Another example...Matthew ch 2 where the Babylonian magi were bringing gifts to Jesus after following "his star". They had already said that they were searching for the new King of the Jews which enraged Herod, who then plotted to kill the child who looked to be a threat to his own dynasty.
So when the magi found the child in a house with his parents, they did "proskyneō" to him. Were they searching for a god, or were they bringing gifts to a royal child, as was their custom? Clearly they did not render worship to an infant.

So my interpretation of scripture is founded on well researched information, not on biased renderings in translations that do not keep up with information related to how various verses in the scriptures should be understood in the light or original language meanings. This, I believe is very important. The devil is out to mislead and misinterpretation of scripture has many "Christians" barking up the wrong tree IMO......I used to be one of them. I am now an avid researcher and I love it.

The title "wise men" is translated from the original Greek word magos. The word refers to a priest of the Persian religion Zoroastrianism. These priests, or magi, frequently looked to the stars for signs of the future and gained an international reputation for astrology and revelation/divination.

It is more than probable that the "wise men" were in fact Zoroastrian priests from Persia. And as there was a sizable Jewish presence in Babylon at that time, they obviously studied the old Hebrew scriptures. (Historians estimate that there were about 6-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire (plus another 1 million from Persia.)

Although the history of the Jews in Iraq in the 5th century BCE is largely unknown, we know that the exiles were allowed to practice their religion while in Persia, and that they would have established schools/colleges in which to teach the children born while they were in exile. Many Jewish men and women who had married Persian partners never returned to Israel

The Bible also states that when the magi found the child Jesus, they "fell down and worshiped him." This verse references or indicates bowing, kneeling or prostration, which was generally viewed by both the ancient Jews and Romans as undignified, and in Jewish tradition was reserved for their God alone. However, for Persians, bowing or kneeling was a sign of respect generally directed toward kings.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Where does it say in scripture that Jehovah is 'the principal savior'? Certainly, Isaiah 43:11 says nothing of the sort. It says, 'I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.'

There is no saviour beside God. Yet, you say that Jesus Christ is your saviour. How can this be?

The one who sends the savior is also a savior.....if you have to be rescued from a dangerous situation and you call 911 (or whatever emergency number applies in your country) then the savior who arrives is not the only one involved in saving you. Without the ones who arranged for the rescue, the call operator, the dispatcher, and the rescue team....there would have been no rescue. Without God "sending" his son, no salvation would have been possible for any of us.

Judges 3:9 notes another savior or deliverer (yasha`) that God sent. It is not an exclusive term.

Now look carefully at the words you use to explain this difficulty. You say, 'Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called "our savior", even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah'.

'AGENT OF JEHOVAH'? What's that all about?!
Have you never heard of "agency"?

The Apostle Paul in Colossians 1:15-17 said of Jesus....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (ESV)

What do you see there? At a cursory reading and if one was a trinitarian, I am sure that the details would escape without notice.....but look closely at what he says....
Jesus is "the image" of the invisible God....Is an 'image' the real thing or only a reflection of the real thing?

If he is "the firstborn of all creation", then he himself is a created being. (Revelation 3:14) He is "before all things" meaning that he was the very first of his Father's creations and the one and only thing created by God alone. That is why he is called "only begotten" when he is not the only "son of God".

He is responsible for creation and yet he is not the Creator. The creation came "through" him...not "from" him. That is "agency". It was also created "for" him....so how can this be speaking about God?

Proverbs 8:22-23; 30-31, long believed to be speaking about the pre-mortal Jesus, as personified wisdom, says....

"The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. . . .
then I was beside him, like a master workman;
and I was daily delight, rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men."


This pre-mortal Jesus was at his Father's side in creation, the "beginning of his work" long before the earth was created. This "Master Workman" was the "us" and "our" of Genesis 1:26.

This is what scripture says if you study it, and correlate its truths with other passages. It is all God's word so it must of necessity not contradict itself.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The title "wise men" is translated from the original Greek word magos. The word refers to a priest of the Persian religion Zoroastrianism. These priests, or magi, frequently looked to the stars for signs of the future and gained an international reputation for astrology and revelation/divination.

Since astrology and divination were forbidden by God's law, it is reasonable to conclude that these were not worshippers of Jehovah. No one else is said to have seen the star but them. By the time they arrived, probably from Babylon, Jesus was a young child and living in a house. The star sent them straight to Herod but after he had been alerted, and hatched his murderous plot, it led them straight to the house where Jesus lived.
This star was not from God, but from his enemy in an attempt to destroy the Christ child before he even had a chance to grow up. The magi were dupes, proven by the fact that God sent them home via another route.

It is more than probable that the "wise men" were in fact Zoroastrian priests from Persia. And as there was a sizable Jewish presence in Babylon at that time, they obviously studied the old Hebrew scriptures. (Historians estimate that there were about 6-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire (plus another 1 million from Persia.)

Although the history of the Jews in Iraq in the 5th century BCE is largely unknown, we know that the exiles were allowed to practice their religion while in Persia, and that they would have established schools/colleges in which to teach the children born while they were in exile. Many Jewish men and women who had married Persian partners never returned to Israel

It matters little in the big scheme of things. Their presence simply confirms that satan was bound and determined to do away with this one who was prophesied to give him a fatal head wound. (Genesis 3:15) God revealed the birth of his son to Jewish shepherds out in their fields at night. He would never have brought such important news to pagan astrologers who practiced what he condemned.

The Bible also states that when the magi found the child Jesus, they "fell down and worshiped him." This verse references or indicates bowing, kneeling or prostration, which was generally viewed by both the ancient Jews and Romans as undignified, and in Jewish tradition was reserved for their God alone. However, for Persians, bowing or kneeling was a sign of respect generally directed toward kings.

Yes.....they were simply paying respect to a royal child, as was their custom...with expensive gifts.

The magi are often portrayed in Christendom as attending the stable at the time of Jesus birth, which is not true.....by the time of their arrival, Jesus was about two years old. That is the age of the children Herod had put to death....two years old and under.
When Mary and Joseph presented Jesus at the Temple, for circumcision, (at 8 days old) the law stated that they had to make an offering to God. (Luke 2:21-24) Their offering was two turtle doves...the offering of the poor. If they had been in possession of gold, frankincense and myrrh, they would have offered a more valuable sacrifice.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Thomas Didymus Jude, the half brother to Jesus, did say 'My Lord and my God,' which was a mistake, because on the day that our Lord God and savior had resurrected the temple in which he revealed himself to us, the risen Jesus, who was the compilation of all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to the bosom of Abraham and over whom the second death had no power, said to his wife, Mary Magdalene, in John 20: 17, "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet ascended to 'THE' Father, (Our Father who is in heaven) but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. Do you believe Jesus or Thomas Jude who is said to be the 'TWIN?"

Just as mankind developed within the bodies of our animal ancestors, so too, the 'Son of Man' develops within the womb of the androgynous body of Eve, who has become the body of mankind. As long as the body of mankind lives, Eve Lives.

All have sinned and all must die once (The death of the body, which is the first death) then go off into judgement. The righteous spirits who have paid the blood price for any mistakes that they have made while in the flesh, for which they are truly repentant, are separated from the unrighteous spirits/ minds, and find rest in Christ, 'The anointed one,' over these the second death, which is that of the Mind/Spirit that had developed within the physical womb that was returned to the elements from which it was created, has no power.

We all must pay the blood price for the sins of the flesh in which we developed. And the death of 'The Son of Man' who is born sinless, is the sacrifice that pays the penalty for the sins of the flesh in which he developed, as the prophet said in Psalms 51: 5; while in the power of the spirit; "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me."

It was 'The Son of Man' who chose the man Jesus as his heir and successor and filled him with his words as revealed in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19, The words that Jesus was commanded to say, which were the words of 'The Son of Man.'

While on the cross as Jesus the servant of our Lord God and savior, the Most High in the creation, Jesus, who was obedient even to his cruel death on the stake, gave up his spirit crying out, "My God, my God why have you abandoned me, 'The Son of Man' who cannot die, ceased to be an individual entity by releasing all the righteous spirits who had been gathered to him, (The cornerstone) to the new temple of light, which is to replace God's old physical tent, wherein, behind the veil of the flesh, within the innermost sanctuary, dwells our spiritual son, who evolves on the parental spirits that are gathered to him.

At the moment that Jesus gave up his spirit, the graves of the saints were opened, and three days later, they came out of their graves and entered the city and showed themselves as the risen Christ, who had been taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as the heir and successor to the Most High, and translated in order that he should never see death.

From the book of Enoch the prophet 37: 4; "Til the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given to me."

Enoch, who was in the valley of Man for three days, or rather, three thousand years, before being reborn on earth and over him, the second death had no power.

The Book of Enoch is not part of the canon of scripture, and we should be careful what we extract from it. The Bible tells us that Enoch 'walked with God' and was translated, and since he was the seventh from Adam, it could well be that this is a foreshadowing of the rapture of the saints [the body of Christ]. This is given additional weight by the fact that in Jude 14 it says that Enoch prophesied the coming of the Lord 'with ten thousands of his saints'.

But the question that occupies me here relates to the person of Jesus Christ. You seem to be claiming that he was the Son of Man but not the Son of God, which is not scriptural. He was both.

I also believe that you are wrong about the statement of Thomas. Like all the disciples who followed Jesus, Thomas was trying to work out for himself exactly who Jesus was. Was Jesus a false Messiah? His moment of exclamation was the moment his doubts evaporated. God's inspired words are not thrown around carelessly! When Thomas exclaimed, My Lord and my God', he meant it. Nor did Jesus make any attempt to correct him.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Well, since this was the the words of Jesus to the devil after his request for Jesus to give him one act of worship in exchange for "all the kingdoms of the world".....no.

Jesus in saying "it is written" was quoting OT scripture to answer the devil's temptations. In this instance he was quoting Deuteronomy 10:20 which in the Tanakh says....

"You shall fear the Lord, your God, worship Him, and cleave to Him and swear by His Name. כאֶת־יְהֹוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֶ֛יךָ תִּירָ֖א אֹת֣וֹ תַֽעֲבֹ֑ד וּב֣וֹ תִדְבָּ֔ק וּבִשְׁמ֖וֹ תִּשָּׁבֵֽעַ:"

Since the Tanakh incorporates the divine name in the Hebrew, (יְהֹוָ֧ה) Jesus is saying that it is Jehovah יְהֹוָ֧ה we must serve and "him only" that we should serve. Jesus is not Jehovah.

I understand that the word often rendered "worship" in Greek (proskyneō) has two meanings....1) worship given to the true God....and 2) obeisance given as an act of honor and respect to someone deserving of it. To apply only one meaning can make a right mess of our understanding of whom we are supposed to worship.

Proskyneō corresponds closely with the Hebrew shachah to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures, and to worship given to God or a deity.

It is used to describe what Abraham rendered to the sons of Heth....
Genesis 23:7..."And Abraham arose and prostrated himself to the people of the land, to the sons of Heth." (Tanakh) Here the Hebrew shachah is clearly not "worship".

Another example...Matthew ch 2 where the Babylonian magi were bringing gifts to Jesus after following "his star". They had already said that they were searching for the new King of the Jews which enraged Herod, who then plotted to kill the child who looked to be a threat to his own dynasty.
So when the magi found the child in a house with his parents, they did "proskyneō" to him. Were they searching for a god, or were they bringing gifts to a royal child, as was their custom? Clearly they did not render worship to an infant.

So my interpretation of scripture is founded on well researched information, not on biased renderings in translations that do not keep up with information related to how various verses in the scriptures should be understood in the light or original language meanings. This, I believe is very important. The devil is out to mislead and misinterpretation of scripture has many "Christians" barking up the wrong tree IMO......I used to be one of them. I am now an avid researcher and I love it.


Jesus actually tells us what is meant by worship, here and elsewhere. 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve'.

If we 'serve' with our heart then we are performing an act of worship. In John 4:24, Jesus adds, 'God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth'. Add the two together and you have this definition; the worship of God means serving Him in spirit and truth.

Jesus refused to serve Satan. Instead, he served his Father obediently, in spirit and in truth.

The question I ask you follows on from this. Do you serve Jesus Christ? If he is not God, then you should not serve him.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Jesus actually tells us what is meant by worship, here and elsewhere. 'Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve'.

We should serve the same God as Jesus did.....the Father...Yahweh....Jehovah. He sought no worship for himself but directed all worship and glory to his God and Father.

If we 'serve' with our heart then we are performing an act of worship. In John 4:24, Jesus adds, 'God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth'. Add the two together and you have this definition; the worship of God means serving Him in spirit and truth.

What do you think it means to “serve” God? How do mere mortals do that? What can we give God, even in our sinful state, that he cannot give himself?

True worship of the Creator should embrace every aspect of an individual’s life. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “Whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory.” (1 Corinthians 10:31) Everything we do to obey God is a service to him.

Jesus refused to serve Satan. Instead, he served his Father obediently, in spirit and in truth.
Yes he did....every appeal to self interest was met with a scripture.
We have to know the scriptures well so that we too can answer any temptation satan may throw at us.

The question I ask you follows on from this. Do you serve Jesus Christ? If he is not God, then you should not serve him.

Since Jesus is not God, we observe his teachings and follow his example in serving his God in good times and bad times.

When he taught us the model prayer, he addressed God as “our Father”.....his father is our Father....his God is our God.

We serve God alongside Jesus.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
What do you see there? At a cursory reading and if one was a trinitarian, I am sure that the details would escape without notice.....but look closely at what he says....
Jesus is "the image" of the invisible God....Is an 'image' the real thing or only a reflection of the real thing?

If he is "the firstborn of all creation", then he himself is a created being. (Revelation 3:14) He is "before all things" meaning that he was the very first of his Father's creations and the one and only thing created by God alone. That is why he is called "only begotten" when he is not the only "son of God".

He is responsible for creation and yet he is not the Creator. The creation came "through" him...not "from" him. That is "agency". It was also created "for" him....so how can this be speaking about God?

What you have written above gets close to the heart of the matter.

We agree that Jesus Christ is described as the image and countenance of God. We know why. Jesus was the Son of man, born of a woman. What was hidden from our earthly view was the Spirit of God that lay behind the image and countenance. This was the Son of God. Some people, gifted with spiritual insight, were able to discern the glory of the Father in the Son.

Jesus healed a man who was blind [he also cured his spiritual blindness]. Here's the story;
'Jesus heard that they had cast him [the healed blind man] out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Doth thou believe on the Son of God?
He [the blind man] answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
And he [the blind man] said, Lord I believe. And he [the blind man] worshipped him [Jesus Christ]'. [John 9:35-38]

The question about 'the firstborn of all creation' is a question about the Word of God. Is the Word that proceeds out of the Father's will a 'creation'? It only becomes a creation the moment it makes 'form' out of 'will'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
We should serve the same God as Jesus did.....the Father...Yahweh....Jehovah. He sought no worship for himself but directed all worship and glory to his God and Father.



What do you think it means to “serve” God? How do mere mortals do that? What can we give God, even in our sinful state, that he cannot give himself?

True worship of the Creator should embrace every aspect of an individual’s life. The apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “Whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory.” (1 Corinthians 10:31) Everything we do to obey God is a service to him.


Yes he did....every appeal to self interest was met with a scripture.
We have to know the scriptures well so that we too can answer any temptation satan may throw at us.



Since Jesus is not God, we observe his teachings and follow his example in serving his God in good times and bad times.

When he taught us the model prayer, he addressed God as “our Father”.....his father is our Father....his God is our God.

We serve God alongside Jesus.

What this demonstrates, IMHO, is that you are still living in the times of the Gospels. You haven't yet entered the Christian Age. Pentecost is with us, it doesn't lie in the future!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And he [the blind man] said, Lord I believe. And he [the blind man] worshipped him [Jesus Christ]'. [John 9:35-38]

People did not worship Jesus. “Proskyneo” only means worship when it is directed to a god. Jesus never accepted worship, but he did accept respectful honour (obeisance) as the son of God.

In Australia, which is under the British judicial system, judges used to be called “Your Worship” which is the equivalent to the American address of “Your Honor”. This is based on the meaning of that word in the Bible.
This is a word that needs context to interpret it correctly. Relating to Jesus it is not worship because he is not God.

The question about 'the firstborn of all creation' is a question about the Word of God. Is the Word that proceeds out of the Father's will a 'creation'? It only becomes a creation the moment it makes 'form' out of 'will'.

It doesn’t need explaining....”firstborn” means just that.....the first of many “sons”. Monogenes is “only begotten” which is the same word as is used elsewhere in the Bible to describe an “only child”....it means that as a firstborn son, he was begotten by his Father in a unique way.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”. There is no ambiguity in scripture....only in trying to make scripture conform to a false and blasphemous doctrine, IMO.

What this demonstrates, IMHO, is that you are still living in the times of the Gospels. You haven't yet entered the Christian Age. Pentecost is with us, it doesn't lie in the future!

You are going to have to explain this one.....Pentecost is long past and it accomplished all that God intended it to, giving people a live demonstration of the future blessings of the kingdom. The difficult times we are experiencing at present is demonstrating fulfillment of prophesy as we speak. We are experiencing the beginnings of the final part of the days.....the great tribulation lies just ahead of us.

We will all answer to the same judge. Jesus is expecting excuses from the goats who think that they are sheep, but they won’t hold water. He will let us know who has been doing the will of the Father and who hasn’t. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Time for me to hit the hay.....back tomorrow.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
The Book of Enoch is not part of the canon of scripture, and we should be careful what we extract from it. The Bible tells us that Enoch 'walked with God' and was translated, and since he was the seventh from Adam, it could well be that this is a foreshadowing of the rapture of the saints [the body of Christ]. This is given additional weight by the fact that in Jude 14 it says that Enoch prophesied the coming of the Lord 'with ten thousands of his saints'.

But the question that occupies me here relates to the person of Jesus Christ. You seem to be claiming that he was the Son of Man but not the Son of God, which is not scriptural. He was both.

I also believe that you are wrong about the statement of Thomas. Like all the disciples who followed Jesus, Thomas was trying to work out for himself exactly who Jesus was. Was Jesus a false Messiah? His moment of exclamation was the moment his doubts evaporated. God's inspired words are not thrown around carelessly! When Thomas exclaimed, My Lord and my God', he meant it. Nor did Jesus make any attempt to correct him.

You are correct, the books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, are not a part of the Roman canon of limited scriptures, that were quoted from by the apostles,

From where do you believe that Luke received the information that Shelah was not the son of Arpachshad, but the son of Cainam/Kainam who was the son of Arpachshad, see Genesis 11: 12. 1; Chronicles 1: 18, and Luke 3: 35-36. Not from your Catholic canon, that's for sure.

In the book of Enoch the prophet, which was written in ancient Egypt, it is recorded that Azazel, one of the sons of God who descended in those days of Jared the physical father of Enoch, and who defiled themselves with the daughters of man, was the son of God who taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

Those sons of God were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) making Jesus the eleventh of the seventh born sons. Ten completes the cycle, ten plus one begins the new cycle, Jesus is the second Adam,
but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: TO HIM ASCRIBE ALL SIN.

It was from the records of Enoch that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God to whom all sin is to be ascribed. See Leviticus Chapter 16,

But why waste my time revealing the truth to those who are only interested in protecting their false beliefs, I have much better things to do in the service of my Lord God and savior, who raised the man Jesus from death and will raise all those who are united to him also.

In Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles mentioned there, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa, who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great. And Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD, his death is recorded in Acts 12: 21-23. The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord. [ADELPHOS (Ἀδελφός):] the Greek term, meaning "born of the same womb.”

According to the Subject Guide in Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, Cleopas ‘The husband of Mary,’ and Alphaeus are one and the same person,

From “JESUS THE EVIDENCE” by Ian Wilson; “And of James the son of Alpheaus, who was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, we learn from Josephus, Eusebius, and Hegesippus, that he was murdered in 62 AD, at the instigation of one of the same Sadducee sect that had his brother Jesus murdered, and that James the righteous was succeeded by Simeon of Cleophas/Alpheaus.

Simeon a half-brother to Jesus, was succeeded by 13 other Bishops of the circumcision, among who, several others, like Simeon and James, appear to have been blood relatives of Jesus. In 132 AD, with the second Jewish revolt, the line was extinguished. Epiphanius of Salamis, in his Panarion, mentions Judah Kyriakos, the great grandson of Jude, as the last Jewish Bishop of Jerusalem that lived beyond Bar Kokhba’s revolt.

It was not uncommon for men of Galilee in those days to carry three names, one in Hebrew, one in Greek, and one in Aramaic. The son, or adopted son of Matthat and Alexandra, the should have been Hasmonian Queen, was ‘Alexander Helios III,’ who, IMO was the son of Athony and Cleopatra, and who sired Joseph the biological father of Jesus, would have been seen as a father of renowned. Alpheaus and Cleophas, in Young’ s Analytical Concordance Subject Guide, are said to be one and the same person: From the Subject Guide; “Cleophas, husband of Mary, also called Alpheaus.”

Joseph, the biological father of Jesus, was the son of Alexander Helios/Heli a father of renowned who was murdered by Herod the Great in 13 BC. Cleophas, the Masculine form of Cleopatra, carries the Greek, meaning: “Of a renowned father,” and Alpheaus, is the Aramaic of the same meaning: “Of a renowned father.”

Thomas=Tau’ma, the Aramaic for twin, is also called Didymus, which is the Greek for twin, he is Thomas/twin, Didymus/twin, Jude, the half-brother of Jesus and the son of the carpenter.

Excerpts from “The Acts of Thomas-Wikipedia.”

Acts of Thomas is a series of episodic Acts (Latin passio) that occurred during the evangelistic mission of Judas Thomas ("Judas the Twin") to India. It ends with his martyrdom: he dies pierced with spears, having earned the ire of the monarch Misdaeus (Vasudeva I) because of his conversion of Misdaeus' wives and a relative, Charisius. He was imprisoned while converting Indian followers won through the performing of miracles.

Thomas is often referred to by his name Judas (his full name is Thomas Judas Didymus), since both Thomas and Didymus just mean twin, and several scholars believe that twin is just a description, and not intended as a name. The manuscripts end "The acts of Judas Thomas the apostle are completed, which he did in India, fulfilling the commandment of him that sent him. Unto whom be glory, world without end. Amen.".

A local tradition of eastern Syria identifies the Apostle Jude with Jude Thomas who was called ‘The Twin’ also known as Thomas (Aramaic), Didymus (Greek), and Jude (Hebrew.)

Knowing that in ART, Thomas Didymus Jude, the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, is depicted with a, carpenter’s rule and square. In "The Acts of Thomas, sometimes called by its full name, we read; "The Acts of Judas Thomas," 2nd-3rd century CE, "The Apostles cast lots as to where they should go, and to Thomas, brother to Jesus fell India. Thomas was taken to King Goddophares the ruler of Indo-Pathian Kingdom as an architect and carpenter by Habban.”

Jude, the brother of the Lord according to the flesh, both having the same father, Joseph-Cleophas-Alphaeus, who was the son of Alexander Helios/Heli, but born of different wombs, was called the apostle of many names, as he was also called Thaddaeus and Lebbeaus, the Greek and Aramaic words for ‘courageous.’ So Jude the brother of the Lord is the courageous apostle called ‘The Twin,’ and he should not be confused with the apostle whose actual name was ‘Thomas.’

‘We must now ask the question, "Who is the Carpenter to whom Mary was married at that time, when her family consisted of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Was it Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah, who was her first legitimate husband, or was it Alpheaus/Cleophas the second husband of Mary and the Father of James the younger, the biological son of Mary and the youngest boy in the family, plus Simon and Judas, who is also called Thomas Didymus Jude, meaning twin?

Hegesippus, mentions descendant of Jude living in the reign of Domitian, 81-96 AD.

In his book, “Historia Ecclesiae” Eusebius wrote; “But when the same Domitian had commanded the descendants of David should be slain, an ancient tradition says that some of the heretics brought accusations against the descendants of Jude (Said to have been a brother of the saviour according to the flesh) on the grounds that they were of the lineage of David and were related to Christ himself.

Hegesippus relates these facts in the following words; “Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude (The Twin) who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.

Although the bible calls Thomas Jude, ‘The twin,” it is not known if he was an actual twin, or if he simply held a striking resemblance to one of the sons sired by his father Joseph/Alpheaus/Cleophas.

Thomas Jude the twin, and half brother to Jesus, was the only apostle not present on the night when Cleophas the husband of Mary returned from the town of Emmaus and entered the darkened room where the disciples were hiding, which disciples included Simon the Patriot and Simon Peter, and cried out, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon, who recognised him by the manner in which he broke the bread at Emmaus,

It was then that he, who the disciples (Excluding Tomas the twin) saw Jesus, who entered the darkened room.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
People did not worship Jesus. “Proskyneo” only means worship when it is directed to a god. Jesus never accepted worship, but he did accept respectful honour (obeisance) as the son of God.

In Australia, which is under the British judicial system, judges used to be called “Your Worship” which is the equivalent to the American address of “Your Honor”. This is based on the meaning of that word in the Bible.
This is a word that needs context to interpret it correctly. Relating to Jesus it is not worship because he is not God.



It doesn’t need explaining....”firstborn” means just that.....the first of many “sons”. Monogenes is “only begotten” which is the same word as is used elsewhere in the Bible to describe an “only child”....it means that as a firstborn son, he was begotten by his Father in a unique way.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”. There is no ambiguity in scripture....only in trying to make scripture conform to a false and blasphemous doctrine,
IMO.



You are going to have to explain this one.....Pentecost is long past and it accomplished all that God intended it to, giving people a live demonstration of the future blessings of the kingdom. The difficult times we are experiencing at present is demonstrating fulfillment of prophesy as we speak. We are experiencing the beginnings of the final part of the days.....the great tribulation lies just ahead of us.

We will all answer to the same judge. Jesus is expecting excuses from the goats who think that they are sheep, but they won’t hold water. He will let us know who has been doing the will of the Father and who hasn’t. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Time for me to hit the hay.....back tomorrow.

I do not see in Rev 3:14 any mention of the man Jesus who, in Acts 3: 13; is called the servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and was given divine glory by the God of our ancestors. Perhaps it is you who is trying to make scripture conform to a false and blasphemous doctrine,
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You are correct, the books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught, are not a part of the Roman canon of limited scriptures, that were quoted from by the apostles,

From where do you believe that Luke received the information that Shelah was not the son of Arpachshad, but the son of Cainam/Kainam who was the son of Arpachshad, see Genesis 11: 12. 1; Chronicles 1: 18, and Luke 3: 35-36. Not from your Catholic canon, that's for sure.

In the book of Enoch the prophet, which was written in ancient Egypt, it is recorded that Azazel, one of the sons of God who descended in those days of Jared the physical father of Enoch, and who defiled themselves with the daughters of man, was the son of God who taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

Those sons of God were then to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke 3: 23-38) making Jesus the eleventh of the seventh born sons. Ten completes the cycle, ten plus one begins the new cycle, Jesus is the second Adam,
but Azazel was punished separate from the others, See the Book of Enoch the Prophet 10: 4-9; “And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5) in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7) not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: TO HIM ASCRIBE ALL SIN.

It was from the records of Enoch that Moses received the regulations, rules and laws, of the new religion, which included the religious regulation where Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel, the Son of God to whom all sin is to be ascribed. See Leviticus Chapter 16,

But why waste my time revealing the truth to those who are only interested in protecting their false beliefs, I have much better things to do in the service of my Lord God and savior, who raised the man Jesus from death and will raise all those who are united to him also.

In Matthew 10: 1-4; Among the Apostles mentioned there, is James the son of Zebedee, who was put to death by Herod Agrippa, who succeeded Herod Antipas the son of Herod the Great. And Herod Agrippa ruled from 37 to 44 AD, his death is recorded in Acts 12: 21-23. The other James who was an Apostle named in Matthew 10: 1-4; is James the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, who Paul names as the brother of the Lord. [ADELPHOS (Ἀδελφός):] the Greek term, meaning "born of the same womb.”

According to the Subject Guide in Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, Cleopas ‘The husband of Mary,’ and Alphaeus are one and the same person,

From “JESUS THE EVIDENCE” by Ian Wilson; “And of James the son of Alpheaus, who was the first to sit on the Episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, we learn from Josephus, Eusebius, and Hegesippus, that he was murdered in 62 AD, at the instigation of one of the same Sadducee sect that had his brother Jesus murdered, and that James the righteous was succeeded by Simeon of Cleophas/Alpheaus.

Simeon a half-brother to Jesus, was succeeded by 13 other Bishops of the circumcision, among who, several others, like Simeon and James, appear to have been blood relatives of Jesus. In 132 AD, with the second Jewish revolt, the line was extinguished. Epiphanius of Salamis, in his Panarion, mentions Judah Kyriakos, the great grandson of Jude, as the last Jewish Bishop of Jerusalem that lived beyond Bar Kokhba’s revolt.

It was not uncommon for men of Galilee in those days to carry three names, one in Hebrew, one in Greek, and one in Aramaic. The son, or adopted son of Matthat and Alexandra, the should have been Hasmonian Queen, was ‘Alexander Helios III,’ who, IMO was the son of Athony and Cleopatra, and who sired Joseph the biological father of Jesus, would have been seen as a father of renowned. Alpheaus and Cleophas, in Young’ s Analytical Concordance Subject Guide, are said to be one and the same person: From the Subject Guide; “Cleophas, husband of Mary, also called Alpheaus.”

Joseph, the biological father of Jesus, was the son of Alexander Helios/Heli a father of renowned who was murdered by Herod the Great in 13 BC. Cleophas, the Masculine form of Cleopatra, carries the Greek, meaning: “Of a renowned father,” and Alpheaus, is the Aramaic of the same meaning: “Of a renowned father.”

Thomas=Tau’ma, the Aramaic for twin, is also called Didymus, which is the Greek for twin, he is Thomas/twin, Didymus/twin, Jude, the half-brother of Jesus and the son of the carpenter.

Excerpts from “The Acts of Thomas-Wikipedia.”

Acts of Thomas is a series of episodic Acts (Latin passio) that occurred during the evangelistic mission of Judas Thomas ("Judas the Twin") to India. It ends with his martyrdom: he dies pierced with spears, having earned the ire of the monarch Misdaeus (Vasudeva I) because of his conversion of Misdaeus' wives and a relative, Charisius. He was imprisoned while converting Indian followers won through the performing of miracles.

Thomas is often referred to by his name Judas (his full name is Thomas Judas Didymus), since both Thomas and Didymus just mean twin, and several scholars believe that twin is just a description, and not intended as a name. The manuscripts end "The acts of Judas Thomas the apostle are completed, which he did in India, fulfilling the commandment of him that sent him. Unto whom be glory, world without end. Amen.".

A local tradition of eastern Syria identifies the Apostle Jude with Jude Thomas who was called ‘The Twin’ also known as Thomas (Aramaic), Didymus (Greek), and Jude (Hebrew.)

Knowing that in ART, Thomas Didymus Jude, the son of Alpheaus/Cleophas, is depicted with a, carpenter’s rule and square. In "The Acts of Thomas, sometimes called by its full name, we read; "The Acts of Judas Thomas," 2nd-3rd century CE, "The Apostles cast lots as to where they should go, and to Thomas, brother to Jesus fell India. Thomas was taken to King Goddophares the ruler of Indo-Pathian Kingdom as an architect and carpenter by Habban.”

Jude, the brother of the Lord according to the flesh, both having the same father, Joseph-Cleophas-Alphaeus, who was the son of Alexander Helios/Heli, but born of different wombs, was called the apostle of many names, as he was also called Thaddaeus and Lebbeaus, the Greek and Aramaic words for ‘courageous.’ So Jude the brother of the Lord is the courageous apostle called ‘The Twin,’ and he should not be confused with the apostle whose actual name was ‘Thomas.’

‘We must now ask the question, "Who is the Carpenter to whom Mary was married at that time, when her family consisted of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Was it Joseph the son of Jacob from the tribe of Judah, who was her first legitimate husband, or was it Alpheaus/Cleophas the second husband of Mary and the Father of James the younger, the biological son of Mary and the youngest boy in the family, plus Simon and Judas, who is also called Thomas Didymus Jude, meaning twin?

Hegesippus, mentions descendant of Jude living in the reign of Domitian, 81-96 AD.

In his book, “Historia Ecclesiae” Eusebius wrote; “But when the same Domitian had commanded the descendants of David should be slain, an ancient tradition says that some of the heretics brought accusations against the descendants of Jude (Said to have been a brother of the saviour according to the flesh) on the grounds that they were of the lineage of David and were related to Christ himself.

Hegesippus relates these facts in the following words; “Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude (The Twin) who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.

Although the bible calls Thomas Jude, ‘The twin,” it is not known if he was an actual twin, or if he simply held a striking resemblance to one of the sons sired by his father Joseph/Alpheaus/Cleophas.

Thomas Jude the twin, and half brother to Jesus, was the only apostle not present on the night when Cleophas the husband of Mary returned from the town of Emmaus and entered the darkened room where the disciples were hiding, which disciples included Simon the Patriot and Simon Peter, and cried out, "He has risen, he appeared to Simon, who recognised him by the manner in which he broke the bread at Emmaus,

It was then that he, who the disciples (Excluding Tomas the twin) saw Jesus, who entered the darkened room.

What you say makes interesting reading, but the point that I made about the scriptures stands true. The 66 books that make up the canon of scripture for Christians should be treated as the judicial scales on which all additional information is weighed. Where information is consistent, it may give additional insights into material revealed in the canonical books.

Am I right in thinking that you do not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God?
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
People did not worship Jesus. “Proskyneo” only means worship when it is directed to a god. Jesus never accepted worship, but he did accept respectful honour (obeisance) as the son of God.

In Australia, which is under the British judicial system, judges used to be called “Your Worship” which is the equivalent to the American address of “Your Honor”. This is based on the meaning of that word in the Bible.
This is a word that needs context to interpret it correctly. Relating to Jesus it is not worship because he is not God.



It doesn’t need explaining....”firstborn” means just that.....the first of many “sons”. Monogenes is “only begotten” which is the same word as is used elsewhere in the Bible to describe an “only child”....it means that as a firstborn son, he was begotten by his Father in a unique way.

Revelation 3:14 calls Jesus “the beginning of God’s creation”. There is no ambiguity in scripture....only in trying to make scripture conform to a false and blasphemous doctrine, IMO.



You are going to have to explain this one.....Pentecost is long past and it accomplished all that God intended it to, giving people a live demonstration of the future blessings of the kingdom. The difficult times we are experiencing at present is demonstrating fulfillment of prophesy as we speak. We are experiencing the beginnings of the final part of the days.....the great tribulation lies just ahead of us.

We will all answer to the same judge. Jesus is expecting excuses from the goats who think that they are sheep, but they won’t hold water. He will let us know who has been doing the will of the Father and who hasn’t. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Time for me to hit the hay.....back tomorrow.

Welcome back!

Understanding what is meant by 'worship' is clearly very important.

Let's go back to Deuteronomy and look at the Shema. In Deuteronomy 6:5 it says, 'And thou shalt
love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might'.

Is this not worship 'in spirit and truth'?

How then is this kind of worship manifest on earth, day by day? In verses 13, 14 it goes on to say, 'Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;'

Now let's try applying this to Jesus Christ. Should I love Jesus with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my might? I think so.

And should I 'fear' and 'serve' the Lord Jesus Christ? Most definitely, seeing that he will be my judge.

As Jesus makes clear in Matthew 25:31. 'When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:'

So, Jesus Christ will be my judge. As he says, 'Inasmuch as ye have done it [good deeds] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it [good deeds] unto me'.

How can you possibly claim that Jesus Christ is NOT your Lord and your God? He will be your judge!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Understanding what is meant by 'worship' is clearly very important.
It is paramount. We can render honor and respect to Jesus (proskyneo) without worshipping him.

Let's go back to Deuteronomy and look at the Shema. In Deuteronomy 6:5 it says, 'And thou shalt
love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might'.

Is this not worship 'in spirit and truth'?
Yes indeed....but according to the Tanakh, the LORD is Yahweh, (Jehovah) not Jesus.
There is one true God...and the Shema makes it clear that YHWH is ONE, not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
"Jehovah" is "the Most High over all the earth". (Psalm 83:18) There is no one higher.

Jesus himself identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) The apostle Paul also made it clear the there is "one God, the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ". (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) They are separate beings. The Father is eternal, the son is a unique creation of the Father.

To place the son on equal footing with the Father, whom he served with all his heart, is actually blasphemous according to my understanding of the scriptures....it is a breach of the first Commandment.

How then is this kind of worship manifest on earth, day by day? In verses 13, 14 it goes on to say, 'Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;'
The fear of Jehovah is not dread....it is a wholesome fear of displeasing someone dearly loved.

Our "service" to him involves every aspect of our lives.....how we live in an immoral world without becoming lax in our own standards, especially with regard to entertainment....it's also how we see the world's governance, and whether we involve ourselves in its corrupt activities (which Jesus told us to be "no part of". John 17:14-18; John 18:36) To me that means following Jesus' superlative example to remain politically neutral. He did not involve himself in the politics of the Roman government who were dominating his own nation at that time.

When nations go to war, Christians cannot be part of it. We are to 'love our enemies and pray for them'...not engage in, or support efforts to kill them. (Matthew 5:43-45)

Now let's try applying this to Jesus Christ. Should I love Jesus with all my heart, and with all my soul, and with all my might? I think so.

I can love Jesus without worshipping him.

And should I 'fear' and 'serve' the Lord Jesus Christ? Most definitely, seeing that he will be my judge.

Why would I fear Jesus? If he is my judge, and I am following his teachings to the best of my ability, then fear plays no part. He is my King and my teacher, but both roles have been given to him by his Father.
Jesus gets all his authority from his God. (Matthew 28:18)

I serve God with Jesus and under his direction.....all Christians must serve the same God as he does. Even in heaven the Father is still his God. (Revelation 3:12)

As Jesus makes clear in Matthew 25:31. 'When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:'

So, Jesus Christ will be my judge. As he says, 'Inasmuch as ye have done it [good deeds] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it [good deeds] unto me'.

According to Jesus, when he comes as judge, many who think that they are sheep will be completely rejected by him.....how is that possible? Jesus says that 'he never knew them'.....NEVER means "not ever".
So what is there about these ones that they all have in common? Could it be that they are worshipping the wrong God and relying on "powerful works" and such to prove their "Christianity"?
Why is their view of themselves so different to how Jesus views them?
What does it mean to "do the will of the Father" that these ones have failed to do?
Why are there "few" on the road to life"? (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

We have to know the answers to these questions.

How can you possibly claim that Jesus Christ is NOT your Lord and your God? He will be your judge!
Jesus is my "Lord" but he is NOT my "God".
Do you see who is mentioned in that scripture? There is Jesus....his "brothers"....and those who do good deeds to them.

Who then are Christ's "brothers" for whom we give support as needed?
These are the ones "adopted" by God to become "joint heirs" with Jesus in God's Kingdom. As adopted sons, they become Christ's brother's. Not all Christians are chosen for this role as their number is limited. God chooses them. They will make up the Kingdom government which will rule over mankind and bring redeemed humanity back into reconciliation with Jehovah. These will be resurrected first (Revelation 20:6) and they will rule with Christ for 1,000 years, during which time the general resurrection of the dead will take place. (John 5:28-29) Mankind will be brought back to God as sin is completely eradicated.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us what we can look forward to....
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

What an amazing time to look forward to.....
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
What you say makes interesting reading, but the point that I made about the scriptures stands true. The 66 books that make up the canon of scripture for Christians should be treated as the judicial scales on which all additional information is weighed. Where information is consistent, it may give additional insights into material revealed in the canonical books.

Am I right in thinking that you do not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God?

On the day that the man Jesus was baptised, the spirit of our Lord God and savior (The Son of Man) descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my SON this day I have begotten thee."

I asked you from where do you believe that Luke received the information that Shelah was not the son of Arpachshad, but the son of Cainam/Kainam who was the son of Arpachshad, see Genesis 11: 12. 1; Chronicles 1: 18, and Luke 3: 35-36. Not from your Catholic canon, that's for sure.

Perhaps Luke may have studied from scripture that is not included in your canon, such as the book of Jubilees [Chapter 8] 1 In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu’eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she 2 bare him a son in the third year in this week, and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for 3 himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and 4 stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was 5 afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year he begat a son, and 6 called his name Shelah; for he said: ’Truly I have been sent.’

Or perhaps Luke received his information from the Septuagint, which was a Greek Translation by Jews in Alexandria, of the Hebrew bible which existed over 200 years before Jesus, where in both Gen 11: 12, and 1 Chron 1: 18; it is said that Kainam was the father of Shelah, but you choose to believe the Catholic canon instead, which states that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years to the day, whereas the Septuagint reveals that they were in the land of Canaan and Egypt for 430 years, 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt.

Paul, who would have studied from the Greek Septuagint says in Galatians 3: 17; “What I mean, is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The law, which was given 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God’s promise.

The first covenant that God made with Abraham, was that, if he would leave his family and travel to the land of Canaan, God would give him that land as an inheritance.

Abraham was 75 when he left his father ‘Terah’ in Turkey with Nahor his youngest brother. 25 years later at the age of 100, He sired Isaac from his half-sister Sarah, when Isaac was 60, he sired Jacob whose name was changed to ‘Israel’ who at the age of 130 moved into Egypt with his entire family. 25+60+130=215. 430 years after God made his first promise/covenant with Abraham the Law was given through Moses: 430-215=215, years the Israelites were in Egypt.

According to your canon which states that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years to the day, in what year would they have destroyed the city of Jericho?

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

Try determining the date of Jericho's destruction, from the information provided in the catholic canon?
 

Misty Woods

A Child of Our Almighty Creator Jehovah
Where does it say in scripture that Jehovah is 'the principal savior'? Certainly, Isaiah 43:11 says nothing of the sort. It says, 'I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.'

There is no saviour beside God. Yet, you say that Jesus Christ is your saviour. How can this be?

Now look carefully at the words you use to explain this difficulty. You say, 'Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called "our savior", even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah'.

'AGENT OF JEHOVAH'? What's that all about?!

I'm clear in my own mind that the Spirit upon Jesus in the synagogue in Nazareth [Luke 4:18] was the Spirit of the Lord without 'measure' [John 3:34]. How can Jesus have had the Spirit without measure and not have been acting with the full authority of his Father? This was, indeed, the presence of God in a temple of God's own making.

When Jesus was resurrected, Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God'. Was this a mistake?

How can you honour the Father as your LORD, if you don't honour Jesus as your Lord? How can you honour Jesus Christ as your Lord unless God be in him?

John 5:20-23. 'For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.'
Where does it say in scripture that Jehovah is 'the principal savior'? Certainly, Isaiah 43:11 says nothing of the sort. It says, 'I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no saviour.'

There is no saviour beside God. Yet, you say that Jesus Christ is your saviour. How can this be?

Now look carefully at the words you use to explain this difficulty. You say, 'Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called "our savior", even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah'.

'AGENT OF JEHOVAH'? What's that all about?!

I'm clear in my own mind that the Spirit upon Jesus in the synagogue in Nazareth [Luke 4:18] was the Spirit of the Lord without 'measure' [John 3:34]. How can Jesus have had the Spirit without measure and not have been acting with the full authority of his Father? This was, indeed, the presence of God in a temple of God's own making.

When Jesus was resurrected, Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God'. Was this a mistake?

How can you honour the Father as your LORD, if you don't honour Jesus as your Lord? How can you honour Jesus Christ as your Lord unless God be in him?

John 5:20-23. 'For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.'
You ask: Where does it say in scripture that Jehovah is 'the principal savior'? Certainly, Isaiah 43:11 says nothing of the sort. It says, 'I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH); and beside me there is no savior.'

My answer: Savior is defined as, One who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction. …..Our Father Jehovah IS OUR ONLY SAVIOR that hears the prayers from His children that humbly, and sincerely want to follow ALL of His direction THROUGH His Son, Our Christ Jesus. Throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, sincere humans understand that our Almighty Creator raises up saviors to bring us out of evil, and our Lord Christ Jesus is the number one savior of all saviors that our Father has sent our way. He has sent saviors to us by way of angels as well as sons of man. (think of the angels that saved Lot, think of Moses) So exactly what part of ‘beside me there is no savior’ at Isaiah 43:11 are you having difficulty understanding????

(Example: A prayer of need is somewhat like a 911 call,, the phone line of our prayer is through Jesus, from Jesus/911 call center, the prayer/911message is sent to Jehovah/Sergeant,,,, Jehovah sends saviors/Sergeant sends officers,,,, now think for just a moment, the officers cannot do anything without the Sergeants direction, or else they may pay a severe penalty later, such as when Moses did not give credit where credit was due and Jehovah did not allow him into the promised land)

Numbers 23:19 states very clearly, “God is not a mere man who tells lies, Nor a son of man who changes his mind. When he says something, will he not do it? When he speaks, will he not carry it out?” In fact, God, not only cannot lie, but it is impossible for God to lie:: Heb 6:18,Titus 1:2. Notice also at Num 23:19 that God is not a son of man, also 1Sam 15:29, yet In the Gospel accounts that expression is found nearly 80 times, applying in every case to Jesus Christ, being used by him to refer to himself. (Mt 8:20; 9:6; 10:23) The occurrences outside the Gospel accounts are at Acts 7:56; Hebrews 2:6; and Revelation 1:13; 14:14. So obviously our Father Jehovah, and our Lord Christ Jesus are two separate entities.

You ask ::: There is no savior beside God. Yet, you say that Jesus Christ is your savior. How can this be?

My answer :::: At Ne 9:27, “……you would give them saviors to rescue them out of the hand of their adversaries.” Judges 3:9 “……Jehovah raised up a savior to rescue the Israelites”,,,, Judges 2:18 “….Whenever Jehovah did raise up judges for them, Jehovah would be with the judge and save them from the hand of their enemies”,,,, Jer 23:5 “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will reign and show insight and uphold justice and righteousness in the land.” Jer 33:15 “In those days and at that time I will cause to sprout for David a righteous sprout, and he will execute justice and righteousness in the land.16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will reside in security. And this is what she will be called: Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.’” Zec 3:8 ““‘Hear, please, O High Priest Joshua, you and your companions who sit before you, for these men serve as a sign; look! I am bringing in my servant Sprout!Isa 53:2 He will come up like a twig before him, like a root out of parched land. No stately form does he have, nor any splendor;And when we see him, his appearance does not draw us to him.” (A twig/root to any true gardener is indeed a sprout//See also Isa 11:1) Zec 6:12 “And say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.”https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001070142/76
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/bc/r1/lp-e/1001070128/1088
You ask : 'AGENT OF JEHOVAH'? What's that all about?!

My Answer : Agent is defined as a person who acts on behalf of another person or group: a person or thing that takes an active role or produces a specified effect Sounds to me like Jehovah’s Only Begotten Son, Our Lord Christ Jesus filled this role perfectly.

You State : I'm clear in my own mind that the Spirit upon Jesus in the synagogue in Nazareth [Luke 4:18] was the Spirit of the Lord without 'measure' [John 3:34]. How can Jesus have had the Spirit without measure and not have been acting with the full authority of his Father? This was, indeed, the presence of God in a temple of God's own making.

My Answer: At no time that I am aware of has Jesus ever acted without full authority from his Father.

You ask: When Jesus was resurrected, Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God'. Was this a mistake?

My Answer: Thomas showed a doubting attitude in response to Jesus’ comment about going away to prepare a place for the apostles, saying: “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How do we know the way?” (Joh 14:2-6) Similarly, after hearing about Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas stated: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will certainly not believe.” Eight days later Thomas had the opportunity to do this when Jesus again appeared to the disciples. But whether Thomas actually did feel the wounds on this occasion is not stated. He was nevertheless convinced and exclaimed: “My Lord and my God!” Christ then mildly reproved him, saying: “Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”—Joh 20:24-29. Thomas did not say My Lord God, or My Lord Jehovah, or My God Jesus. The word ‘and’ if you’ll take notice of a dictionary, is used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly, such as peanut butter and jelly. Obviously, the peanut butter is not the same thing as the jelly, however when you put them together, they make for a perfect sandwich.

You Ask: How can you honor the Father as your LORD, if you don't honor Jesus as your Lord? How can you honor Jesus Christ as your Lord unless God be in him?

My Answer: Lord is defined as someone or something having power, authority, or influence; a master or ruler: Obviously, Our Father Jehovah who is Our Almighty Creator and Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Master Worker and the only begotten Son of our Father that now reigns as King sitting at the right hand of God, both certainly deserve all the honor as our Lords. Col 1:13 “He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist

So once again I ask, Which is wiser?? To make the clear statements of scripture conform to our imperfect human conceptions of what may be implied??? OR To believe the clear teaching of our Creator’s Inspired Scripture, and accept that these perceived implications might be due to our misunderstanding of scripture or completely in error???
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
On the day that the man Jesus was baptised, the spirit of our Lord God and savior (The Son of Man) descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my SON this day I have begotten thee."

I asked you from where do you believe that Luke received the information that Shelah was not the son of Arpachshad, but the son of Cainam/Kainam who was the son of Arpachshad, see Genesis 11: 12. 1; Chronicles 1: 18, and Luke 3: 35-36. Not from your Catholic canon, that's for sure.

Perhaps Luke may have studied from scripture that is not included in your canon, such as the book of Jubilees [Chapter 8] 1 In the twenty-ninth jubilee, in the first week, in the beginning thereof Arpachshad took to himself a wife and her name was Rasu’eja, the daughter of Susan, the daughter of Elam, and she 2 bare him a son in the third year in this week, and he called his name Kainam. And the son grew, and his father taught him writing, and he went to seek for himself a place where he might seize for 3 himself a city. And he found a writing which former (generations) had carved on the rock, and he read what was thereon, and he transcribed it and sinned owing to it; for it contained the teaching of the Watchers in accordance with which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and 4 stars in all the signs of heaven. And he wrote it down and said nothing regarding it; for he was 5 afraid to speak to Noah about it lest he should be angry with him on account of it. And in the thirtieth jubilee, in the second week, in the first year thereof, he took to himself a wife, and her name was Melka, the daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and in the fourth year he begat a son, and 6 called his name Shelah; for he said: ’Truly I have been sent.’

Or perhaps Luke received his information from the Septuagint, which was a Greek Translation by Jews in Alexandria, of the Hebrew bible which existed over 200 years before Jesus, where in both Gen 11: 12, and 1 Chron 1: 18; it is said that Kainam was the father of Shelah, but you choose to believe the Catholic canon instead, which states that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years to the day, whereas the Septuagint reveals that they were in the land of Canaan and Egypt for 430 years, 215 years in Canaan and 215 years in Egypt.

Paul, who would have studied from the Greek Septuagint says in Galatians 3: 17; “What I mean, is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it. The law, which was given 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God’s promise.

The first covenant that God made with Abraham, was that, if he would leave his family and travel to the land of Canaan, God would give him that land as an inheritance.

Abraham was 75 when he left his father ‘Terah’ in Turkey with Nahor his youngest brother. 25 years later at the age of 100, He sired Isaac from his half-sister Sarah, when Isaac was 60, he sired Jacob whose name was changed to ‘Israel’ who at the age of 130 moved into Egypt with his entire family. 25+60+130=215. 430 years after God made his first promise/covenant with Abraham the Law was given through Moses: 430-215=215, years the Israelites were in Egypt.

According to your canon which states that the Israelites were in Egypt for 430 years to the day, in what year would they have destroyed the city of Jericho?

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

Try determining the date of Jericho's destruction, from the information provided in the catholic canon?

I will have a look at the dating some time. I am aware of Kathleen Kenyon's findings, and have visited the Jericho site myself.

At present, I have no reason to doubt the inspiration of the scriptures in my possession. They provide a clear revelation of Jesus Christ as both Son of man and Son of God.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It is paramount. We can render honor and respect to Jesus (proskyneo) without worshipping him.


Yes indeed....but according to the Tanakh, the LORD is Yahweh, (Jehovah) not Jesus.
There is one true God...and the Shema makes it clear that YHWH is ONE, not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
"Jehovah" is "the Most High over all the earth". (Psalm 83:18) There is no one higher.

Jesus himself identified his Father as "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) The apostle Paul also made it clear the there is "one God, the Father" and one "Lord Jesus Christ". (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) They are separate beings. The Father is eternal, the son is a unique creation of the Father.

To place the son on equal footing with the Father, whom he served with all his heart, is actually blasphemous according to my understanding of the scriptures....it is a breach of the first Commandment.


The fear of Jehovah is not dread....it is a wholesome fear of displeasing someone dearly loved.

Our "service" to him involves every aspect of our lives.....how we live in an immoral world without becoming lax in our own standards, especially with regard to entertainment....it's also how we see the world's governance, and whether we involve ourselves in its corrupt activities (which Jesus told us to be "no part of". John 17:14-18; John 18:36) To me that means following Jesus' superlative example to remain politically neutral. He did not involve himself in the politics of the Roman government who were dominating his own nation at that time.

When nations go to war, Christians cannot be part of it. We are to 'love our enemies and pray for them'...not engage in, or support efforts to kill them. (Matthew 5:43-45)



I can love Jesus without worshipping him.



Why would I fear Jesus? If he is my judge, and I am following his teachings to the best of my ability, then fear plays no part. He is my King and my teacher, but both roles have been given to him by his Father.
Jesus gets all his authority from his God. (Matthew 28:18)

I serve God with Jesus and under his direction.....all Christians must serve the same God as he does. Even in heaven the Father is still his God. (Revelation 3:12)



According to Jesus, when he comes as judge, many who think that they are sheep will be completely rejected by him.....how is that possible? Jesus says that 'he never knew them'.....NEVER means "not ever".
So what is there about these ones that they all have in common? Could it be that they are worshipping the wrong God and relying on "powerful works" and such to prove their "Christianity"?
Why is their view of themselves so different to how Jesus views them?
What does it mean to "do the will of the Father" that these ones have failed to do?
Why are there "few" on the road to life"? (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

We have to know the answers to these questions.


Jesus is my "Lord" but he is NOT my "God".
Do you see who is mentioned in that scripture? There is Jesus....his "brothers"....and those who do good deeds to them.

Who then are Christ's "brothers" for whom we give support as needed?
These are the ones "adopted" by God to become "joint heirs" with Jesus in God's Kingdom. As adopted sons, they become Christ's brother's. Not all Christians are chosen for this role as their number is limited. God chooses them. They will make up the Kingdom government which will rule over mankind and bring redeemed humanity back into reconciliation with Jehovah. These will be resurrected first (Revelation 20:6) and they will rule with Christ for 1,000 years, during which time the general resurrection of the dead will take place. (John 5:28-29) Mankind will be brought back to God as sin is completely eradicated.

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us what we can look forward to....
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

What an amazing time to look forward to.....

You say that you can love Jesus without worshipping him. I don't think you can. Worship is service, and you cannot love Jesus from the heart unless you serve him.

You say that the Greek word for worship (Gk. proskun) refers to a lesser form of worship, but that is not correct. Jesus uses the same word when talking about worship of the Father. John 4:23; 'But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship (proskun) the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship (proskun) him'.

The reason that I highlighted Pentecost in my last post was because the baptism in the Holy Spirit is central to service. The baptism in the Holy Spirit provides us with the Spirit of righteousness, and by having that Spirit within us, we are given the power to walk 'in spirit and in truth'. If I do not walk by the Holy Spirit, then I walk, instead, by your own spirit, in works of self-righteousness.
 
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