The LORD is my shepherd

[Thief]

There was no sin in Jesus,

there are several years of His life we know nothing of

perhaps you have report?

 

[Thief]

You need to make arguments that have meaning to me.

no fair

 

[QuestioningMind]

I believe there is only one God.

Good for you. What does that have to do with a person having more than one shepherd in their life?

 

[Rival]

I know very little about you, or what you believe. As a Noahide, do you hold all three sections of the Tanakh to be divinely inspired?

Yes. Using verses from the Christian Testament means nothing to me, though.

 

[Redemptionsong]

there are several years of His life we know nothing of

perhaps you have report?

My report comes from our heavenly Father, who said at Jesus' baptism, 'Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased'. [Mark 1:11] Was God pleased with what was about to happen, or what had already happened? Jesus was about thirty at the time, so my guess is that God was reporting on his past under the law.

 

[Rival]

@Redemptionsong You still haven't addressed the statement that there are many shepherds, nor that this shepherd and G-d are distinct entities.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes. Using verses from the Christian Testament means nothing to me, though.

Well, verses from the Christian Testament should mean something to you because a huge number of passages are taken directly, or in paraphrase, from the Hebrew scriptures.

It's helpful to know why a person rejects Jesus as Messiah. Pleading ignorance, when evidence is so readily available, is hardly worthy of a truth-seeking individual!

 

[Rival]

Well, verses from the Christian Testament should mean something to you because a huge number of passages are taken directly, or in paraphrase, from the Hebrew scriptures.

It's helpful to know why a person rejects Jesus as Messiah. Pleading ignorance, when evidence is so readily available, is hardly worthy of a truth-seeking individual!

I am an ex-Christian. I know all this. There are many more reasons for people not being Christians than 'ignorance'. The CT abuses Tanakh Scriptures and sometimes outrights invents prophecy (see Matthew 2:23). It takes verses and round-peg-square-holes them into its narrative (see Matthew 2:18, which has nothing to do with anything here).

You still haven't addressed any of my points. Unless you have an argument, we're done.

 

[Redemptionsong]

@Redemptionsong You still haven't addressed the statement that there are many shepherds, nor that this shepherd and G-d are distinct entities.

I thought I had covered this in a previous post [Nos. 47 and 59].

There were many shepherds in Israel, but none was able to gather the flock. This is why there is only one good shepherd.

The shepherd the Father sends is the Messiah. The Messiah is a human being filled with the Spirit of God. This makes the Messiah a unique person, neither a man alone, nor God alone, but both together in a mediatory role. Since the man was righteous, and without iniquity, he could not have been an ordinary man. All men have sinned, as both the Tanakh and Christian scriptures confirm.

 

[Rival]

I thought I had covered this in a previous post [Nos. 47 and 59].

There were many shepherds in Israel, but none was able to gather the flock. This is why there is only one good shepherd.

The shepherd the Father sends is the Messiah. The Messiah is a human being filled with the Spirit of God. This makes the Messiah a unique person, neither a man alone, nor God alone, but both together in a mediatory role. Since the man was righteous, and without iniquity, he could not have been an ordinary man. All men have sinned, as both the Tanakh and Christian scriptures confirm.

This still doesn't work. Nowhere does the Tanakh say anything remotely like this. It describes the Messiah as a King, as a faithful follower of the Torah, of going to the Temple, bringing offerings, uniting the lost tribes back to Israel and ushering in an era of peace. He's a military leader. Nowhere is he said to be divine, sinless, a mediator or anything other than a human being as we know it.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Either that or they work in shifts.

Edit - to expand on this: while both verses are written in the present tense, the Psalms were written centuries before John. Even if we assume that both verses are true, that doesn't necessarily mean that "what was" when the Psalms were written was still "what was" when John was written.

Can you explain to me how words of 'scripture', that were penned by more than 40 prophets over about 1500 years of human history (Hebrew and Christian scriptures), have remained intact and coherent WITHOUT there being a divine author? If these words were not inspired, who is it that upholds the lie from generation to generation? [In contrast, the Qur'an was written over 23 years!]

As a little exercise, you should read the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion, and then read Psalms 21-23. Then read Isaiah 53. Is it even remotely possible that the events of the crucifixion could have been 'fixed' hundreds of years after the inspired words of David and Isaiah?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you explain to me how words of 'scripture', that were penned by more than 40 prophets over about 1500 years of human history (Hebrew and Christian scriptures), have remained intact and coherent WITHOUT there being a divine author? If these words were not inspired, who is it that upholds the lie from generation to generation? [In contrast, the Qur'an was written over 23 years!]

As a little exercise, you should read the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion, and then read Psalms 21-23. Then read Isaiah 53. Is it even remotely possible that the events of the crucifixion could have been 'fixed' hundreds of years after the inspired words of David and Isaiah?

You missed my point. That's okay.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This still doesn't work. Nowhere does the Tanakh say anything remotely like this. It describes the Messiah as a King, as a faithful follower of the Torah, of going to the Temple, bringing offerings, uniting the lost tribes back to Israel and ushering in an era of peace. He's a military leader. Nowhere is he said to be divine, sinless, a mediator or anything other than a human being as we know it.

You seem to know a lot about the coming King. So tell me, how do you explain Daniel 7:13,14? This is an interesting passage from an inspired scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Good for you. What does that have to do with a person having more than one shepherd in their life?

It means that if you want to find your way to God you must follow the one true shepherd. There may be many shepherds but God has designated one shepherd as 'the way, the truth, and the life' [John 14:6].

 

[Redemptionsong]

You missed my point. That's okay.

My apologies.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It means that if you want to find your way to God you must follow the one true shepherd. There may be many shepherds but God has designated one shepherd as 'the way, the truth, and the life' [John 14:6].

I disagree... how can you follow something that you have yet to find? Surely, until you find god you must reply of others to shepherd you in the right direction for finding god.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I disagree... how can you follow something that you have yet to find? Surely, until you find god you must reply of others to shepherd you in the right direction for finding god.

That's why Jesus told his disciples to preach the Gospel. How can a person hope to find faith without first hearing the word of God?

Edit: Jesus' disciples are called shepherds too [1Peter 5:3,4 and Hebrews 13:20]. Peter describes them as 'ensamples to the flock'.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That's why Jesus told his disciples to preach the Gospel. How can a person hope to find faith without first hearing the word of God?

Ah, so a shepherd could lead me to the gospels, which would then lead me to God the shepherd. Sure sounds like you can have more than one shepherd in your life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

By saying this He claims to be God because no one is a better Shepherd than God. If the truly good shepherd must give His life then that means God must give His life.

IMO, a shepherd who can do his job safely is a better shepherd than one who has to die to do his job.

 

[Rival]

You seem to know a lot about the coming King. So tell me, how do you explain Daniel 7:13,14? This is an interesting passage from an inspired scripture.

It is. It still says nothing remotely like what you have described and it certainly does not make the Messiah to be G-d.