QuestioningMind
Well-Known Member
Your conclusion is only valid if it's assumed that a person can only have one shepherd.
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The LORD is my shepherd
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
Your conclusion is only valid if it's assumed that a person can only have one shepherd.
74x12
Well-Known Member
The Bible doesn't say Angus is your Shepherd. We believe the Bible doesn't contradict itself. If it says God is our Shepherd and yet Jesus then that settles it. Besides, Jesus doesn't just say He is "a" shepherd. Then he would just be another pastor because the word pastor means shepherd. Jesus claimed to be "the good" Shepherd. So He was claiming the 23rd Psalm. Furthermore, He claims the truly good shepherd gives His life fro the sheep. By saying this He claims to be God because no one is a better Shepherd than God. If the truly good shepherd must give His life then that means God must give His life. How can God die? By making Himself a mortal human body and inhabiting it. This was Jesus Christ. The Son of God because He was born of the holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) and God manifest in the flesh because He was God indwelling a human form. (Colossians 2:8-9)
Problem: a does not equal b, nor does b equal c, therefore a does bot equal c.
It's a nice and safe and comfy tribal choice.
Elohim is the plurality of "gods", not "persons". If each person is God then you have three gods. Do the math. Where does it say in the scriptures that humans 'are' spirits with a soul and living in a body?
It says the opposite if you read it carefully. Adam was created as a body first. God then breathed "spirit" into his lifeless body and began the breathing process that animated him, and he "became" a soul. So the body, soul and spirit are indeed what make up a human being, but the 'soul' and the 'spirit' are grossly misunderstood by Christendom's adherents IMO. They have adopted pagan concepts instead of sticking to the scriptures. God is not a man....and never was.
According to the Bible the soul dies when the spirit "goes out" or is extinguished (when breathing stops)....just like a light or a candle "goes out"...it doesn't leave the room. (Ezekiel 18:4; Psalm 146:4)
I have also heard it described like water being manifest in three forms...liquid, solid and gas...but God is not water....he is spirit.
Deuteronomy 6:4 states that Yahweh is “one” not three.
If Jesus was as equally God as he was human, then as an immortal, he could not die. Mere mortals cannot kill an immortal God. If Jesus did not die a human death, then the 'ransom' for mankind was not paid. If God died then the ransom was grossly overpaid. Christ never needed to be God to pay for Adam's sin...he just needed to be sinless....a ransom is an exchange of equal value. (Matthew 20:28)
If Jesus was equally God then why did he need to pray to his Father for help on the night of his arrest saying that God’s will had to be done and not his own? (Luke 22:42)
John 5:30...
"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." (NASB)
Why is it that when the Father and son are mentioned the holy spirit is almost always missing?
At John 17:3 for example, Jesus said...
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (NASB)
Why is knowing the holy spirit not mentioned as a requirement for eternal life?
How does God know things that the son does not? (Matthew 24:36)
Why is the Father still the God of Jesus even in heaven?
Revelation 3:12...
"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (NASB)
To counter John 1:1, all you have to do is read John 1:18...
"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."
"No one has seen God at any time"......how many people saw Jesus?
Jesus is spoken of here as "the only begotten God" who has "explained" the Father to his disciples.
Can God be "begotten"......someone who is "begotten" needs a 'begetter'.....the one who produced him. The son of God was 'begotten' long before he came to the earth in human form. He is God's "firstborn".....the very "beginning" of his creative works. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14 )
Seriously, the apostle John alone wrote more scripture refuting the trinity than any other apostle.
How does this god dishonoring doctrine even stand up under the weight of scripture that shoots it down? I cannot for the life of me understand how a doctrine that was formulated by an apostate church, hundreds of years after Jesus died, got to be the very foundation of Christendom's belief system.....though, come to think of it...I do.
I believe that the devil who sowed the 'weeds', has people worshipping the wrong god, in breach of the first Commandment. Could that be why "few" are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) How sad would it be if that was the case? I grew up with the trinity...it never made any sense to me.....now I know why.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
There seems to be general agreement that Psalm 23 refers to YHWH, God.
YHWH, the shepherd of heaven, is the one who places a shepherd [Messiah, my servant David] amongst his flock on earth. He does so because the shepherds of Israel have failed to feed the flock [Ezekiel 34]. Why have the flock become scattered? Why is it necessary for God to say (verse 12), 'As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in a the cloudy and dark day'.
So God, the shepherd of heaven, feels it necessary to come to earth ['I will seek out my sheep'] because the shepherds of Israel are incapable of fulfilling the role of the 'good shepherd'.
You say, 'There is the shepherd and there is G-d', but clearly that is not the case. If the shepherd is not God then Psalm 23:1 does not apply any more.
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Actually, plural usage can mean superlative, This is seen in Judges 16:23, when the Philistines were praising Dagon their God. He was not a plurality of gods, but they thought he was ‘the best.’
You are really adept at reasoning! I enjoy reading your posts.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Rev. 3:12.'He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.'
The Messiah, Jesus Christ, has the name of God written upon him.
It's worth taking a close look at the words of Jesus in John 10:11-16.
'I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
And other sheep [Gentiles] I have, which are not of this fold [Jews]: them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd'.
Psalm 110:1 is helpful in showing that Jesus Christ is unique. David's Lord is Jesus Christ, and the Father of the Son is above, in heaven. This makes Jesus Christ 'My Lord, and God'. You don't reject the good shepherd that is sent to shepherd you, saying, 'Sorry, I've got another shepherd in heaven!'
Jesus Christ is, according to scripture, the Spirit of God in a temple 'made without hands'. He was anointed as King but died as the shepherd. This means that he was still an heir at the time of his first advent. See Daniel 7:14. It's as the King of Kings that he returns.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I muddled my replies.
Whilst the New Testament speaks in plain language of the coming of Jesus Christ as the Suffering Servant, it is possible to see all the seeds of his coming prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures.
To convince those who accept the Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the One anointed of God to be the Messiah, it is necessary to demonstrate a consistency of intention between the two Testaments. The covenant of law should flow coherently into the covenant of grace.
I believe it is possible to make a persuasive argument purely on the basis of the Torah, Prophets and Writings, because this is exactly what Jesus did on the road to Emmaus [Luke 24:27].
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I believe there is only one God.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
The other side of the sheep story is that they are provided with green pastures by the good shepherd. They get to be led by still waters in a beautiful land. The sheep that is cared for has nothing to fear. Even the giving of his own life is quite acceptable, when done in love and faith for the good shepherd.
Here are the verses in Ezekiel 34. Read them.
And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.
Is G-d His own servant? Is G-d David?
The shepherd is 'David'; that is, the King Messiah who is being separated from G-d in these verses. G-d is setting up the King ('shepherd'). Unless G-d doesn't know how to use pronouns, these are two completely different entities. There's no reason the title 'shepherd' can't apply to both in different capacities. As I said and you did not respond, if I have a human master who I call 'Master' and also I call G-d 'Master', it isn't meaning they're the same master.
Have you also read the first verses of Ezekiel 34? Be prepared.
And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
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In I These 5:23 - 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I know that we, with finite minds, cannot completely understand an infinite God but it doesn't change the reality that we still have one God manifest in three distinct functions.. the Father, The Word and His Holy Spirit.
Again.. one but comprised of three like man
Is 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. The three are one as we are three in one (Let US make man in OUR image)
You cannot equate Jesus when He came in human form as what he was when He was The Word. there was a divine purpose when The Word humbled himself and took on humanity to save humanity.
It makes sense to me.
In different applications, yes, but not in Deut - context.
Either that or they work in shifts.
Edit - to expand on this: while both verses are written in the present tense, the Psalms were written centuries before John. Even if we assume that both verses are true, that doesn't necessarily mean that "what was" when the Psalms were written was still "what was" when John was written.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
lamb chops
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
You seem to be missing the point here.
The claim made by Christians is that Jesus Christ is both the Son of man and the Son of God. Jesus Christ was born a unique human being. His father was God, his mother was Mary. Jesus lived under the law until he was about thirty, and was then baptised of the Holy Spirit (the anointing of Christ).
Was Jesus fathered by a human being? Not according to the scriptures. Did the Word [the Son] become flesh? Yes, according to John 1:14, 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth'.
Was the 'fulness of the godhead' dwelling in the body of Jesus? Yes, according to the scriptures it dwelt in him without measure. There was no sin in Jesus, so the glory of God was apparent.
Look again at Ezekiel 34 and you will see that every time the word 'shepherd' appears in the plural it is talking about the false shepherds of Israel. There is only one good shepherd. So, if there is only one good shepherd why should we not then apply Psalm 23:1 to Jesus Christ, for in him was the Spirit of the LORD?
The body of Jesus causes a confusion, but don't forget that the body of Jesus was crucified at Golgotha. The corruptible, mortal, part of Jesus Christ [the flesh] was changed at resurrection. Jesus Christ ascended to heaven as 'the first begotten' of the dead.
Psalm 110:1 shows an hierarchy. David is obedient to the Lord, and the Lord is obedient to the LORD. David only knows the Father through the Son. Hence John 14:6, 'no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'
I am not a Christian. You need to make arguments that have meaning to me.