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Featured The LORD is my shepherd

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    As I have said before, the beliefs that I hold regarding God as Holy Spirit are not the result of indoctrination by any trinitarian denomination. I have drawn my conclusions from the scriptures, and am happy to argue these beliefs from the scriptures alone.

    It's clear that we can agree that God is ONE. One Spirit that is holy, omniscient, omnipotent and eternal. The one God also has personal qualities, because He is able to make himself known to us through His word and loving presence.

    If personal qualities exist in the one God, why do you think that His Holy Spirit, with which He baptized Jesus and, later, his disciples, cannot, or does not, exhibit the same qualities? If God is one essence, then it makes absolute sense that His Holy Spirit will exhibit all the same qualities.

    And how can Jesus pre-exist, if Jesus was 100% man? This means that the Jesus who was crucified was not 'the firstborn of the dead' [Colossians 1:18].

    Surely, there was no baby Jesus until the birth of Mary's child at Bethlehem?

    I Corinthians 10:1-5 is a reference to 'Christ' in the wilderness with Moses and the Israelites. It does not say 'Jesus'. This suggests that 'Christ' is the Spirit of God, the same Spirit that descended on Jesus at his baptism.

    [There are other points that your response raises, which I will return to later.]
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I like the fact that you've highlighted some the most searching examples of the relationship between Father and Son! But yes, the Son always subordinates himself to the Father. The Father sends the Son, just as the Son sends the Comforter.

    These are interesting passages, and without the two perspectives, of man and God, it would be impossible to reconcile these differences.

    John 20:17. 'Jesus saith unto her [Mary Magdalene], Touch me not; for I [ as Son] am not as yet ascended to my Father [Note - the use of 'Father' in relation to 'Son'] : but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father [if you recognize yourself as a 'Son'!]; and to my God [the God of Jesus the Jew], and your God [the God of the Jews].

    If we go to Revelation 3:12, we have another interesting passage. In this extract we have the Spirit of God addressing different churches.
    'Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.'

    I have underlined 'my God' because I want you to reflect back on the statement made by Thomas in John 20:28. To whom do you think 'my God' refers?
     
    #222 Redemptionsong, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the teachings of Jesus are a re-stating of the moral teaching found in the Hebrew scriptures. The difference is that we should be following God's commands 'in spirit and truth' rather than by the letter. Jesus wanted people to recognize the need for a change in SPIRIT, not a change in teaching!

    As I understand it, the new covenant did not come into effect until the day of Pentecost. As Paul tells us, a testament does not come into effect until the death of the testator. It was on the day of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples, as prophesied in the scriptures. This was the point at which the disciples were able to truly worship God 'in spirit and truth'.

    The new covenant is, IMO, not about our righteousness, but about the righteousness of God in us. Righteousness is a gift that comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

    This is why God's redemption requires that the Holy Spirit be the saving grace of mankind. Only God is Saviour; there is no other.
     
  4. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No, Moses was differnt. He heard the actual voice of God. I already said that.
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    As am I. But I see that you do not identify your denomination, which suggests to me that you are either a loner (having read the Bible and come to your own conclusions without appeal to any group or recognized religious body) or you hesitate to identify for fear of vilification. Please correct me if I am I wrong.

    Do you have a brotherhood with whom you meet for worship and who hold beliefs in common? This to me is what sets the 'wheat' apart from the 'weeds'....their beliefs and practices. God has always guided his people through human representatives. Christ's followers must of necessity all speak the same spiritual language. (1 Corinthians 1:10) and they must meet together regularly for worship and mutual encouragement. (Hebrew 10:24-25)

    A welcome point of agreement. :)

    Let me put it this way.....if God's spirit is a person, how can it fill someone? How can it fill a large group of people? How is it possible to take "some of the spirit" that was on one man and divide it up between 70 others? (as was the case with Moses) The personification of the holy spirit describes its roles, not its personhood.
    When the "paraclete" (helper) is spoken about, it is masculine gender in Greek and grammatically is rendered "he"....not because it is a person of any gender. God is only described as a "he" because of the masculine roles he assigned to himself. A "Father" is always masculine. The "son" is always masculine. But in heaven there is no gender.

    Jesus was "the Word" (Logos, spokesman) long before he came to earth as a human. He was "in the beginning "with" God", (John 1:1) which means from the beginning of his existence, since God had no beginning.He fulfilled his mission as Messiah and savior, and returned to his Father's right hand, where he was before. This time he was rewarded for his faithful service with more than he had before. Another name and immortality.

    The role of "Jesus" did not exist until his human birth but the pre-human Jesus is "the Word" (Logos) who by means of God's spirit, came in human form through his mother Mary. (John 1:14) He was a spirit being in heaven whom we believe to be Michael the Archangel in a different role. Jesus has many roles and many names, but God the Father has one name and one role....it is all he needs as Universal Sovereign. (Psalm 83:18)

    Or it suggests that 'Christ' is Jesus (as is always the case in Christian scripture) and that he as God's second in command, was leading the Israelites in the wilderness, using God's spirit to sustain them through their sojourn there. The reason for their 40 year wandering was their disobedience and complaining spirit, so God allowed enough time for those disobedient troublemakers to die out in the wilderness, before bringing their offspring into the Promised Land, as the scripture says.

    Despite their initial salvation through the Red Sea, and the visible guidance of God with the pillars of cloud and fire day and night, and the fact that they all consumed the same food and water miraculously provided to them in an arid and lifeless region, most of them never saw the Promised Land. Moses himself did not enter it. This proves to me that miracles will never make someone's faith stronger......after a while it is all taken for granted and the complaining spirit in fallen humanity will surface and bring his faith down.

    This is why we need strong spiritual leadership and constant encouragement to keep the faith as we wait for Jesus to bring about the final judgment upon this satanic world.....after which the Kingdom of God will rule all mankind and bring faithful humans back to God....I don't believe it is far away.....
     
    #225 Deeje, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  6. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    And what do your religious instructors tell you, is the reason why Moses and his brother Aaron, were forbidden by the Lord to enter the promised Land?
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Well the Bible told me actually......

    Moses retaliated in anger and frustration at the Israelites constant ingratitude for the provisions that kept them alive in the wilderness, and spoke rashly that they would bring water out of the rock for the complaining Israelites.....they failed to give the credit to Jehovah and thus lost their place. Aaron died first......and Moses was allowed to see the Promised Land before he died.

    Deuteronomy 32:48-52....
    "Jehovah spoke to Moses on this same day, saying: 49 “Go up into this mountain of Abʹa·rim, Mount Neʹbo, which is in the land of Moʹab, which faces toward Jerʹi·cho, and view the land of Caʹnaan, which I am giving to the Israelites as a possession. 50 Then you will die on the mountain you are about to ascend, and be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people, because both of you were unfaithful to me among the Israelites at the waters of Merʹi·bah of Kaʹdesh in the wilderness of Zin, because you did not sanctify me before the people of Israel. 52 You will see the land from a distance, but you will not enter the land that I am giving to the people of Israel.”
     
  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Correct! For once the JW's agree with me. In Psalms 106, it was written; "At the springs of Meribah the people made the LORD angry, and Moses was in trouble on their account. They made him so bitter that he spoke without stopping to think."

    Revealing that it was what Moses said that got him into trouble and had nothing to do with striking the rock twice as was once taught.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Why do you insist in driving up a cul-de-sac?

    You believe that Moses revealed God's words, but you refuse to accept that David or Ezekiel did the same.

    The implication of this stance is that Israelites should be following Moses, word-for-word, for Moses then becomes the only reliable revelation of God's will. The Prophets and Writings become unreliable sources of inspiration.

    The trouble is, you don't follow the words revealed to Moses! You don't because, even if you wanted to, you aren't able to. Moses gave very clear instructions on sacrifice. Yet, you don't do it. Why not? Because there isn't a temple. What excuse do you use? You say that the Prophets and Writings support the idea that God is pleased, temporarily, with sacrifices of thanksgiving [Psalm 107:22] So, you resort to the authority of the prophets when you find it impossible to follow the Torah.

    You can't have it both ways. Either God's word is trustworthy (which means that God's word can be understood and believed), or it is not trustworthy.

    A further implication of placing God's word on the same level as man's word is that you dishonour God Himself. God is omnipotent and omniscient, and to suggest that He cannot find a man to convey His message accurately is tantamount to blasphemy. As you said yourself, if God wants to use an unbeliever, or, I might add, a donkey, He will!

    Now, maybe, you'll look again at the syllogism and tell me whether the logic applies!
     
    #229 Redemptionsong, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Wow...we actually agree on something! Will wonders never cease. :p
     
  11. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and one day you will be forced to agree with me that the book of Ecclesiastes is a satirical work of Solomon, aimed that those, who believe that the death of the body, is the death of the mind/spirit that develops within that body.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Ya think...? Don't hold your breath now, will ya....? :D

    I find no evidence for an immortal soul in any part of scripture.....in fact, the two words do not exist side by side in any Bible verse.
     
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  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I prefer not to be 'pigeon-holed' but from what I post it is evident that I believe a disciple of Jesus should be born-again of the Spirit of God. I also believe it is important not to be a loner, so I meet with other born-again believers. In the past, I have attended various church denominations, including a unitarian meeting (until I sensed the error), but am now much happier in a house church (without denomination!).

    What you have written above is interesting, and should help in the process of unraveling this complex issue of whether God has come to earth.

    I'm fully aware that Spirit has no gender, so what I'm particularly keen to explore is the idea of whether or not God's Spirit can be divided.

    I believe that Jesus received the Holy Spirit without any division. As a human, Jesus already had his own body, soul and spirit [Do you believe this?] so the coming of the Holy Spirit at baptism was a coming down of God's Spirit without division or limitation. For this to be true, Jesus must have fulfilled all the 'ministries' of the Holy Spirit within the church. Jesus was, therefore, an apostle, a prophet, an evangelist, a pastor and a teacher. He was also many other things, including our High Priest.

    So I see in Christ all the power and glory of God. The reason for this must lie in the fact that Jesus, as God's only begotten Son, was perfectly faithful and could 'house' an undivided Holy Spirit. [You might remember that even Moses was unable to enter the house of God when the Holy Spirit (Shekinah) was present].

    IMO, the difference between Jesus Christ and the rest of the believers is the difference between the head and the body. The head is the boss, and each part of the body functions in accordance with the leading of the head. Since the Holy Spirit flows from the head to the parts, it separates to perform different functions, where necessity calls. Each believer in the body of Christ has varying amounts of faith, and receives grace in accordance with faith and talent. Paul describes this body, as in Ephesians 4:14-16. The point being, that the Holy Spirit is ONE within the body of Christ, and therefore the head and body unite as one in the Son of God. The temple of God [the Spirit of Christ] is therefore a spiritual body that exists on earth, amongst believers, and in heaven, in the head, Jesus Christ.
     
    #233 Redemptionsong, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  14. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't follow at all.
     
  15. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Shepherds care for the sheep until it's time to eat.
     
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  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If you want my input, there needs to be an explanation as to why it doesn't follow!
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find John 20:28 does Not change what Jesus said earlier at John 20:17.
    Even today we hear a person exclaim in front of a reporter, " Oh, my god ! " and we know the person is Not addressing the reporter as their god.
    Stephen was comforted by what he saw according to Acts of the Apostles 7:55-56
    Notice the heavenly position that Jesus takes being at the right hand of God. This is also in harmony with Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:21.
    Jesus appeared before the person of his God - Hebrews 9:24
    Stephen calls out (verses 59-60) to Jesus and rightly so because God gave Jesus the Resurrection Power to unlock the grave - Revelation 1:18.
    Stephen dying request was that those stoning him would Not have their sin held against them, so that Jesus would also resurrect them.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Jesus is Not the LORD of Psalms 110.
    However Jesus is the Lord, but Not the LORD.
    There are two (2) LORD/Lord's mentioned.
    LORD in ALL Upper-Case letters stand for LORD God ( Tetragrammaton YHWH)
    The Tetragrammaton does Not apply to Lord Jesus ( Lord in some lower-case letters )
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    At the coming 'time of separation' on Earth as found at Matthew 25:31-34 Jesus is more than a shepherd but king.
    A king as subjects (Psalms 72:8; 12:14) and those figurative humble sheep of Matthew 25:37 will be subjects or citizens under Christ as King.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Let me say first of all that I really appreciate your sincerity and understand your beliefs, since I once shared many of them myself.

    I often wonder about ‘non-denominational’ churches in view of Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 1:10. Here in Australia, mainstream churches are drying up as we as a nation become more and more secular and materialistic.....so some decades ago three of those churches who were struggling to stay afloat, merged for their mutual benefit.They called themselves "The Uniting Church" because there is no way that their individual doctrines could agree, so because they will never be "United", there is a suggestion in the title that they are accepting of each others beliefs and difference which are put aside for the benefit of the church's survival. Mostly I guess because they all accept the core doctrines inherited from the RCC.

    I think this comes down to who God is, and whether there was ever a need for God himself to become a human in order to save mankind. To me that is akin to a dinosaur wanting to live in the body of a bacteria in order to save the bacteria. That is the kind of divide I see between God and humans.

    Indeed, the spirit is often spoken of as divided between large groups of people.

    e.g. Numbers 11:25 recounts the situation with Moses feeling overwhelmed at the responsibility given to him for the welfare of his vast nation.....and his father-in-law recommending that he get some assistance.
    "Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him [Moses] and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it."
    (ESV)

    How do you take "some" of a person off one man and divide it up between 70 others?

    And of course there is Pentecost when the holy spirit "filled' 120 of Jesus' disciples gathered in an upper room, enabling them to speak in foreign languages to preach to visitors in the city from foreign lands.

    When Stephen was about to die at the hands of the infuriated Jews, because he had castigated them with a stinging truth, he was granted a vision....

    Acts 7:51-57....
    51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, 53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”
    54 Now when they heard these things they were enraged, and they ground their teeth at him. 55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him."
    (ESV)

    You notice that Stephen was filled with holy spirit when he was granted this vision.....whom did he see? He saw Jesus at the right hand of God. Was the holy spirit absent from the heavenly scene because it was busy 'filling' Stephen? If it can be in several places or people at once, why was it not seen in heaven with the rest of the trinity?

    In fact when Jesus and his Father are spoken about together, the holy spirit rarely rates a mention as a trio...no more is this well demonstrated than Jesus own words to his Father in John 17:3...
    "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Again, there is "the only true God" but it isn't Jesus because he adds AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent". Where is the third equally important component of the trinity? Why is eternal life NOT based on a knowledge of "him"?

    I believe that Jesus was 100% human but not the product of normal human reproduction. To be viewed as "Jewish" one had to be born of a Jewish mother, which Jesus was. But in order not to carry the defective (sinful) genes of Adam, he couldn't have a human father. To be born sinless, his life in heaven was transferred to the womb of this specially chosen, unmarried virgin. Her virginity was essential so that Jesus' credentials would be as the "son of God" rather than a sinful son of Adam. This would prove that he could pay the "ransom" which was a set "price". You see, the ransom demanded something that no other human could furnish.....Jesus had to be Adam's equivalent because God's law demanded that a debt be paid in full. A "redeemer" had to have the full price, so a "life for a life" meant a sinless life had to be offered for the sinless life that Adam lost for his children, sold into this 'slavery' (to sin and death) through no fault on their part. (Roman 5:12)

    The mechanics of the ransom tell us why Jesus cannot be God. It would be like paying a million quadriillion dollars ransom for something worth only a few thousand dollars by comparison.

    Since you have an entirely different understanding of the words "soul" and "spirit" as they are used in the Bible, that will lead us to another rabbit hole.

    I see you putting your own qualifiers on your statements as if they were absolute truth. I do not see them that way. What does it mean when you say..."a coming down of God's Spirit without division or limitation. For this to be true, Jesus must have fulfilled all the 'ministries' of the Holy Spirit within the church"....that statement means very little to me.....like church jargon.

    The coming down of God's spirit upon his son along with his declaration of approval says to me that when Jesus presented himself to begin his role as Messiah, God equipped him for that role by giving him all that was necessary through the operation of holy spirit to carry it out. His baptism in water was a symbolic death and resurrection, signifying that Jesus the man, now 'died' and was 'raised' to become Jesus the Christ (anointed one). As God's anointed one he did carry out various roles whilst remaining the son of God. But he was also referred to as "God's servant". (Acts 3:13) A servant is not equal to his Master, but obediently carries out his Masters instructions. Jesus did exactly that. (John 5:19)

    It was the High Priest's job to enter the Most Holy once a year with the blood of the prescribed sacrifice. But God spoke with Moses (most than likely through his Logos) in a luminous cloud that appeared above the Ark of the Testimony.

    Numbers 7:89...
    " And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the Lord, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him."

    Exodus 25:22....God said to Moses...."There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel."

    Again, we have a very different view as to who make up the "body of Christ".
    I agree that Jesus is the head, no question....but who are the body and what is their function?
    Since these alone go to heaven, what do they do there according to your understanding?

    To address your statement above, I believe that we first need to answer these questions.....[/quote]
     
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