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The lithmust test for socialism v. capitalism.

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
A few months ago, I listened to this professor on how he can proof that Communism, and socialism will beat Capitalism.
Richard D. Wolff - Wikipedia
I do not have the exact You tube Video where he teaches about the socialist Restaurant which he proposes will be much better than the Capitalist restaurant.
I was shocked to think that a Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Massachusetts could say what he did, AND GETS AWAY WITH IT!

In short, he says that it is easy to convert Capitalism to socialism.
Take as example, a restaurant, and let the employees run the company.
Divide them in half, and say on a Friday before businuss, let them discuss the plan for the next week. Let then decide on the wages, expenses, menue, workhours etc. Let them divide the profits amongst the employees. next week it is the other half's turn to rule and he continued with this silly tales of economics.

What a fool.
First of all, a Restaurant is not as difficuilt to start off, and to maintain profitable as would be say a mega company making cars.
It is much more simplistic in its model, therefor it might even be possible to give the professor's students the premises to start their Restaurant.

Soon will they discover that not all the students want to run a restaurant, but would rather sell coffee. They will not agree on the theme and presentation of how the company should look like. Some would want different colors table cloths, others will hate the lights, what will the walls be painted, or will it be draped.

Once they went this far, the "Half" meeting on the first friday will now decide that everyone must go and borrough 2 000 dollars to enable the purchase of the machines, tools, and everything else needed.
This will be just as bad a meeting, because some will realise they will need more money to advertise, and others will say, no we will get our friends and spread the word. No one will agree on anything,
By this time the other half of the students realised they will have to make 2 000 debt and trust this "team" to procure profits to ensure they get their money back.

Then the games begin, and by miracle the company started to operate, and at this stage the investors have to pay back the first months payment on the loan, yet they still did not earn any money. They found many small costs which they never budgeted for, and all this extra expenses will mean that they will only receive their first profits 4 months down the line. One of the team members is in hospital, and
Now the fun starts.

They realise the only way to get some profit through the Restaurant, is to pay the inverstors, who is the workers, lower wages. But this is not so easy, because all of them decide on the dividion of money, and they all decided to rather buy cheaper ingredients for their Burgers and whatever they are selling.

This is where it becomes a de ja veau on what happened in East Germany and Russia in the 70's and 80's, and quality just vanishes, and no more customers.

Now the excuses for their failure results in all the employees withoput a job, in debt, and having no future prospects in the company, and they close down blaming capitalism for charging so much for meat and bread.

This is the actual difference between Socilaism and capitalism.
Ownership!
If you compare this restaurant with the one a few blocks away, the owner and his wife got the idea to sell a unique Burger and fries. They created an immage of family is welcome. They decided on the theme and made the loan!
They had a businuss plan, and knew it will take at least 6 months to be established, and sold their house to support their venture.
They then employed people who they can afford, and those people sold their labour to be employed, even though it would seem a low wage, but they have a secure income, whilst the owner keeps on fighting for survival.
2 years later this company is very lucrative, and the owner opened a second restaurant, aqnd he flies from opening to making a profit.

Do you agree with my observation that the Restaurant is not some organisation enslaving its employees, but it is the property of the owner,

because

HE HAD THE INTELLIGENCE AND DRIVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND YOU ARE ONLY....
YES....
A WORKER!!!
If you can do better, go and do it, stop blaming successfull people for your shortfalls.
 
Last edited:

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The lithmust test for socialism v. capitalism

It could be a false dichotomy, because just maybe being human is more than socialism v. capitalism and ownership.
Maybe private ownership is not all that makes a society a society?!!

 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
No I don't agree with your "observation", it's just a rant. I'm not clear on your "silly" economics: Is the second restaurant your own personal fiction?
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Do you agree with my observation that the Restaurant is not some organisation enslaving its employees, but it is the property of the owner,

because

HE HAD THE INTELLIGENCE AND DRIVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND YOU ARE ONLY....
YES....
A WORKER!!!
If you can do better, go and do it, stop blaming successfull people for your shortfalls.

On the other hand, there's a reasonable chance that

THE WORKER KNEW HOW TO SPELL ORGANIZATION, SUCCESSFUL, AND LITMUS!!!
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
On the other hand, there's a reasonable chance that

THE WORKER KNEW HOW TO SPELL ORGANIZATION, SUCCESSFUL, AND LITMUS!!!

Now if we go down the route of reasoning as tied to reasonable.
One of the slogan quote related to describing and explain something complex is to do so:
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler". :D
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Do you agree with my observation that the Restaurant is not some organisation enslaving its employees, but it is the property of the owner,

because

HE HAD THE INTELLIGENCE AND DRIVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND YOU ARE ONLY....
YES....
A WORKER!!!
If you can do better, go and do it, stop blaming successfull people for your shortfalls.


How narrow minded. An employer hires workers for their experience and Intelligence and uses those skills to enhance the company. If the employee is better at running the company than the owner then yes, that employee should run the company.

Edit :Spelling corrected
 
Last edited:

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
It is hard to distinguish the difference between a business in a communist country and one in a capitalist country today.
China has very much a hybrid economy running successfully in a command driven society. Vast companies like Huawei are both highly profitable, and highly innovative. and world leaders in their field. At the same time, you have tiny companies that eek out a living from foreign buyers by selling on Ebay. But this change is far from complete, and is far from being spread evenly over the country.

People are people everywhere and they learn to not only survive, but thrive under any system they find themselves in.
I suspect that the Hybrid model being developed in China, will prove to be one of the most successful to have been established anywhere.

Perhaps the world is now so large and complex that only Command systems can cope in terms of long term planning and social provision. in a way that serves a vast majority of the people. However it will inevitably curtail some personal freedoms.

It would be foolish to think it could not be developed in the west out of the hybrid economies of Europe.
the trick will be maximising freedoms while developing the benefits of a command structure.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
How narrow minded. An employee hires workers for their experience and Intelligence and uses those skills to enhance the company. If the employee is better at running the company than the owner then yes, that employee should run the company.
Managers and CEO's are examples of successful employees that run companies for the benefit of owners. they are not different in Kind. just ability.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
A few months ago, I listened to this professor on how he can proof that Communism, and socialism will beat Capitalism.
Richard D. Wolff - Wikipedia
I do not have the exact You tube Video where he teaches about the socialist Restaurant which he proposes will be much better than the Capitalist restaurant.
I was shocked to think that a Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Massachusetts could say what he did, AND GETS AWAY WITH IT!

In short, he says that it is easy to convert Capitalism to socialism.
Take as example, a restaurant, and let the employees run the company.
Divide them in half, and say on a Friday before businuss, let them discuss the plan for the next week. Let then decide on the wages, expenses, menue, workhours etc. Let them divide the profits amongst the employees. next week it is the other half's turn to rule and he continued with this silly tales of economics.

What a fool.
First of all, a Restaurant is not as difficuilt to start off, and to maintain profitable as would be say a mega company making cars.
It is much more simplistic in its model, therefor it might even be possible to give the professor's students the premises to start their Restaurant.

Soon will they discover that not all the students want to run a restaurant, but would rather sell coffee. They will not agree on the theme and presentation of how the company should look like. Some would want different colors table cloths, others will hate the lights, what will the walls be painted, or will it be draped.

Once they went this far, the "Half" meeting on the first friday will now decide that everyone must go and borrough 2 000 dollars to enable the purchase of the machines, tools, and everything else needed.
This will be just as bad a meeting, because some will realise they will need more money to advertise, and others will say, no we will get our friends and spread the word. No one will agree on anything,
By this time the other half of the students realised they will have to make 2 000 debt and trust this "team" to procure profits to ensure they get their money back.

Then the games begin, and by miracle the company started to operate, and at this stage the investors have to pay back the first months payment on the loan, yet they still did not earn any money. They found many small costs which they never budgeted for, and all this extra expenses will mean that they will only receive their first profits 4 months down the line. One of the team members is in hospital, and
Now the fun starts.

They realise the only way to get some profit through the Restaurant, is to pay the inverstors, who is the workers, lower wages. But this is not so easy, because all of them decide on the dividion of money, and they all decided to rather buy cheaper ingredients for their Burgers and whatever they are selling.

This is where it becomes a de ja veau on what happened in East Germany and Russia in the 70's and 80's, and quality just vanishes, and no more customers.

Now the excuses for their failure results in all the employees withoput a job, in debt, and having no future prospects in the company, and they close down blaming capitalism for charging so much for meat and bread.

This is the actual difference between Socilaism and capitalism.
Ownership!
If you compare this restaurant with the one a few blocks away, the owner and his wife got the idea to sell a unique Burger and fries. They created an immage of family is welcome. They decided on the theme and made the loan!
They had a businuss plan, and knew it will take at least 6 months to be established, and sold their house to support their venture.
They then employed people who they can afford, and those people sold their labour to be employed, even though it would seem a low wage, but they have a secure income, whilst the owner keeps on fighting for survival.
2 years later this company is very lucrative, and the owner opened a second restaurant, aqnd he flies from opening to making a profit.

Do you agree with my observation that the Restaurant is not some organisation enslaving its employees, but it is the property of the owner,

because

HE HAD THE INTELLIGENCE AND DRIVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND YOU ARE ONLY....
YES....
A WORKER!!!
If you can do better, go and do it, stop blaming successfull people for your shortfalls.
This seems to be trying to establish a world record for attacking straw men. Either that or one for flogging dead horses. :D
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
In short, he says that it is easy to convert Capitalism to socialism.
Take as example, a restaurant, and let the employees run the company.
Divide them in half, and say on a Friday before businuss, let them discuss the plan for the next week. Let then decide on the wages, expenses, menue, workhours etc. Let them divide the profits amongst the employees. next week it is the other half's turn to rule and he continued with this silly tales of economics.
That's not socialism though. It's just shifting the management from a meritocracy (you'd hope) or a dictatorship (more realistically) to some kind of artificially structured direct democracy.

I don't know whether the error is in the source or your interpretation but either way any presumed failure doesn't say anything about the economic systems of capitalism or socialism.

You still need to look up the concept of mixed economy since you're continuing to act as if the only possible options are entirely capitalist or entirely socialist.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
A few months ago, I listened to this professor on how he can proof that Communism, and socialism will beat Capitalism.
Richard D. Wolff - Wikipedia
I do not have the exact You tube Video where he teaches about the socialist Restaurant which he proposes will be much better than the Capitalist restaurant.
I was shocked to think that a Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Massachusetts could say what he did, AND GETS AWAY WITH IT!

In short, he says that it is easy to convert Capitalism to socialism.
Take as example, a restaurant, and let the employees run the company.
Divide them in half, and say on a Friday before businuss, let them discuss the plan for the next week. Let then decide on the wages, expenses, menue, workhours etc. Let them divide the profits amongst the employees. next week it is the other half's turn to rule and he continued with this silly tales of economics.

What a fool.
First of all, a Restaurant is not as difficuilt to start off, and to maintain profitable as would be say a mega company making cars.
It is much more simplistic in its model, therefor it might even be possible to give the professor's students the premises to start their Restaurant.

Soon will they discover that not all the students want to run a restaurant, but would rather sell coffee. They will not agree on the theme and presentation of how the company should look like. Some would want different colors table cloths, others will hate the lights, what will the walls be painted, or will it be draped.

Once they went this far, the "Half" meeting on the first friday will now decide that everyone must go and borrough 2 000 dollars to enable the purchase of the machines, tools, and everything else needed.
This will be just as bad a meeting, because some will realise they will need more money to advertise, and others will say, no we will get our friends and spread the word. No one will agree on anything,
By this time the other half of the students realised they will have to make 2 000 debt and trust this "team" to procure profits to ensure they get their money back.

Then the games begin, and by miracle the company started to operate, and at this stage the investors have to pay back the first months payment on the loan, yet they still did not earn any money. They found many small costs which they never budgeted for, and all this extra expenses will mean that they will only receive their first profits 4 months down the line. One of the team members is in hospital, and
Now the fun starts.

They realise the only way to get some profit through the Restaurant, is to pay the inverstors, who is the workers, lower wages. But this is not so easy, because all of them decide on the dividion of money, and they all decided to rather buy cheaper ingredients for their Burgers and whatever they are selling.

This is where it becomes a de ja veau on what happened in East Germany and Russia in the 70's and 80's, and quality just vanishes, and no more customers.

Now the excuses for their failure results in all the employees withoput a job, in debt, and having no future prospects in the company, and they close down blaming capitalism for charging so much for meat and bread.

This is the actual difference between Socilaism and capitalism.
Ownership!
If you compare this restaurant with the one a few blocks away, the owner and his wife got the idea to sell a unique Burger and fries. They created an immage of family is welcome. They decided on the theme and made the loan!
They had a businuss plan, and knew it will take at least 6 months to be established, and sold their house to support their venture.
They then employed people who they can afford, and those people sold their labour to be employed, even though it would seem a low wage, but they have a secure income, whilst the owner keeps on fighting for survival.
2 years later this company is very lucrative, and the owner opened a second restaurant, aqnd he flies from opening to making a profit.

Do you agree with my observation that the Restaurant is not some organisation enslaving its employees, but it is the property of the owner,

because

HE HAD THE INTELLIGENCE AND DRIVE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN, AND YOU ARE ONLY....
YES....
A WORKER!!!
If you can do better, go and do it, stop blaming successfull people for your shortfalls.

You have illustrated the problem with democracies in general....
What do you suggest to replace democracies?
Monarchy?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You have illustrated the problem with democracies in general....
What do you suggest to replace democracies?
Monarchy?

Me, me, pick me. I want to own everything and everybody. Please pick me. :D

Well, no! A democratic combination of we, I and you seem to work better. :)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
You have illustrated the problem with democracies in general....
What do you suggest to replace democracies?
Monarchy?
Actually, plenty of European democracies are monarchies: the UK, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. But these are constitutional monarchies rather than absolute monarchies.

One country which has been a republic, but seems to be being gradually turned into an absolute monarchy is....the United States!
 
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