The Limits of Religious Freedom

[Kenny]

@questfortruth said one should not pray out loud in the toilet, so the question becomes, does not God hear it even someone think the prayer. So it does not matter where one prays.

You may have a point.

I remember one person who was praying to God as he was vomiting in the toilet from drunkedness! He became a pastor.

He got up fully sober and never touched a drop after... so you may have a point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Of course. One can always justify one's OWN willingness to abrogate the freedoms of others. Just say that their beliefs are harmful to others (i.e., themselves because they don't agree with you) and there you go.

There is no right to harm and damage others, and do or not do things that lead to their death. The sooner we realize religion has been getting a free pass on emotional and physical abuse and that free pass must be revoked the better off we'll be. This isn't mere disagreement, this is an opposition to kids being abused, neglected, emotionally damaged, and killed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If religious freedom is trimmed in the USA, doesn't that edit about a dozen Constitutional Amendments? How do we have freedom of speech if I cannot proselytize, for example?

When is the last time proselytizing killed anyone?

 

[Kenny]

There is no right to harm and damage others, and do or not do things that lead to their death. The sooner we realize religion has been getting a free pass on emotional and physical abuse and that free pass must be revoked the better off we'll be. This isn't mere disagreement, this is an opposition to kids being abused, neglected, emotionally damaged, and killed.

Again... I don't see where religion gets any free pass vs any other person.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Again... I don't see where religion gets any free pass vs any other person.

In most states the religious are granted exemptions written it comes to child abuse and neglect laws, and in some states these exemptions include manslaughter charges.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Great! My children are now 40, 38 & 36. They are continuing the legacy of knowing a personal, loving and caring God to the 11 children that they have between them.

Then well done. It is also anecdotal, and there are other anecdotal accounts that are not so rosy.

It doesn't take "religious" to have kids in abusive and neglectful parents.

As if I didn't know this. Remember it was I who made the correlation between "child services" - a decidedly secular institution.

And I don't see where "weirdness" gets a free pass. (Not to mention that if one is an atheist--everything that a faith-filled person does will be weird for them)

Genital mutilation has gotten a free pass for some time. It has really only recently come under considerable scrutiny. People marrying off children - in some anecdotal cases against their desires/will - was also something given a sort of "protection" under the heading of "religious freedom" - you can find plenty an article about authorities covering up or ignoring things they knew to be going on because they were sympathetic to, or were part of the religion themselves. To pretend there aren't abuses that a blind eye has been turned to because the institution was religious is ridiculous. And within those religious circles there is often even MORE known to be going on that is ignored, covered up, or hidden from the eyes of the public. Religion and the ability to cry "religious freedom" facilitate things like this. The secular world may have its problems, but the base assumption is that everyone is subject to the same laws. This isn't entirely the same for religion - and people brandishing their religion have often been known to feel themselves above the law.

 

[Kenny]

In most states the religious are granted exemptions written it comes to child abuse and neglect laws, and in some states these exemptions include manslaughter charges.

I really would like to see that in writing. Never heard of such a thing.

 

[Kenny]

hen well done. It is also anecdotal, and there are other anecdotal accounts that are not so rosy.

Which I have already admitted -- just remembering that religion doesn't have the corner of the market. I was just following your lead on "if you were able to do it -- well done" ) paraphrased.

Genital mutilation has gotten a free pass for some time. It has really only recently come under considerable scrutiny. People marrying off children - in some anecdotal cases against their desires/will - was also something given a sort of "protection" under the heading of "religious freedom" - you can find plenty an article about authorities covering up or ignoring things they knew to be going on because they were sympathetic to, or were part of the religion themselves. To pretend there aren't abuses that a blind eye has been turned to because the institution was religious is ridiculous. And within those religious circles there is often even MORE known to be going on that is ignored, covered up, or hidden from the eyes of the public. Religion and the ability to cry "religious freedom" facilitate things like this. The secular world may have its problems, but the base assumption is that everyone is subject to the same laws. This isn't entirely the same for religion - and people brandishing their religion have often been known to feel themselves above the law.

Yes, but again, this isn't a "corner of the market" issue.

If I am not mistaken, Bernie Madoff had no problem with violating people regardless of religion. He was able to cover it up too. He used his political influence and his groupie friends to cover it up. He thought he was above the law.

So your broad brush really has no hairs to it to paint. People can use anything to get around the law and it doesn't take religion to do it.

If you have a personal beef about religion, you have every right to your viewpoint.

Christian faith is about restoring and helping people--not using it to violate people.

 

[dianaiad]

Now THAT is the truth,.

All my grandchildren are homeschooled. By fourth grade they could name every major event in the history of the world!

I need to go back to elementary school.

Now they are learning Spanish having learned Latin and having studied logic. (For those who are in 10th grade now)

Classical Conversation is the program.

I work with a program that has the kids passing AP high school exams by the time they are 12...and they do it for fun. Three languages, advanced math,....they're all at 'college level' curriculums by the time they are 14, and none of them are 'prodigies.'

I'm also the first to admit that if the homeschool 'teacher' is lazy, homeschooling can be disastrous. However, most of the families I know and work with are anything BUT 'lazy.'

 

[dianaiad]

I really would like to see that in writing. Never heard of such a thing.

So would I. I would need to see the actual laws, written down.
Because I don't know any states that 'excuse' manslaughter for religious reasons.

 

[dianaiad]

The willful ignorance of some people to not recognize the harm done to others due to one's religious beliefs is probably the highlight of cognitive dissonance.

The other side of that cognitive dissonance coin would be the inability of some people to not recognize that disagreement with THEIR beliefs and behaviors does not equal 'harm done to others,' and to not recognize that their own imposition of beliefs/behaviors upon others is more harmful than those of whom they disapprove.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I really would like to see that in writing. Never heard of such a thing.

Keeping the Faith, Fighting the Exemptions

The reality is that 182 children have died unnecessarily in Idaho because of faith-healing exemptions, which continue to protect those children's parents from any liability."

 

[Kenny]

I work with a program that has the kids passing AP high school exams by the time they are 12...and they do it for fun. Three languages, advanced math,....they're all at 'college level' curriculums by the time they are 14, and none of them are 'prodigies.'

I'm also the first to admit that if the homeschool 'teacher' is lazy, homeschooling can be disastrous. However, most of the families I know and work with are anything BUT 'lazy.'

When my children were young, we did Christian school through 8th grade. Public school from 9th. Using CLEP - and early admission to College at 12th grade - graduated with an AA degree while they received their High-school diploma.

Just to share what Public Schools is about... when we applied to "Early Admission" - the school counselor said my son couldn't handle the load. Later she said "Senior year should be about having fun and not school1". Had to get the principal to override her.

Incidentally--12 th grade was 21 hours of College courses and he held a 4.0 average.

I credit it to the good learning habits acquired at the Christian School.

 

[dianaiad]

Because those who have a bad experience cannot possibly be correct in what they experienced? Speaking of blaming the victim.

So...aid those who have had a bad experience, and leave those who have not had a 'bad experience,' and are quite happy where they are, alone.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Most states' child abuse and neglect laws have religious exemptions

All states have laws prohibiting child abuse and neglect. But in 34 states (as well as the District of Columbia, Guam and Puerto Rico), there are exemptions in the civil child abuse statutes when medical treatment for a child conflicts with the religious beliefs of parents, according to data collected by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Additionally, some states have religious exemptions to criminal child abuse and neglect statutes, including at least six that have exemptions to manslaughter laws.

This disgusting and tragic nonsense must come to an end.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Christian faith is about restoring and helping people--not using it to violate people.

Yes, but sometimes the "harm" isn't so easily detected/discerned and the people doing that harm THINK they are helping. This is the case described in the OP with what she lamented about her education. Her parents probably thought they were "protecting" her, but they let her down miserably - all because they wanted to uphold and protect their religion - which they deem more important than their child I would be willing to bet!

And THAT'S what I want to see abolished. The ability for people to hold the mindset that something they can't prove to be anything more than make-believe is given priority over family, friends, good causes, medical attention, etc.

I'm not saying religion has the market cornered on these botched mindsets. But it is one of the BIG ones, for sure, that foster and even laud the kind of mind that can accept things based on insufficient evidence, and deny evidence in favor of more familiar ideas. Are there other things that people can get into that express themselves in the person in this same sort of way? Sure. Cults, political parties, high-authority power positions, being extravagantly rich and being able to ignore everything else around you, etc. ALL of which have their problems. You want me to stop pointing my finger at religion? Tough. Just because "there are other issues" doesn't mean I can't champion the one of my choosing.

 

[dianaiad]

Unfortunately, this subjectivist perspective isnt true or practical. While it isnt necessary for government to dictate all things, there are limits. Any religious community who enjoys the protections of a government must negotiate with that government and inevitably make compromises.

Human sacrifice, slavery, physical and sexual abuse, but not emotional abuse at this point are fair game for a government to find cause to intervene into a minority group within their jurisdiction. It can even be seen as right and humane for one nation to intervene into the abuses internal to another nation.

What gives anyone the right to do this? Moral feeling, compassion, wisdom born from the experience of history. Let it not be said that good people stood by and did nothing while evil is allowed to grow and consume our neighbors.

This sort of interference is a self-granted right and responsibility. It is also something that we do not want to use to excess. In a multicultural society we can rest assured that diversity will help ensure balance in this area.

My opinion on this can be boiled down to: Religious freedom means....do as you believe, as long as you do not forcibly involve the unwilling. So...no human sacrifice, no slavery, no rapine. Freedom of religion, IMO, is bound by the same limits freedom of speech is. Your freedom to swing your arm ends at the tip of my nose.

And having beliefs that are distasteful to me (and a BUNCH of you guys have beliefs that make me cringe..) is NOT the same as poking me in the nose.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The other side of that cognitive dissonance coin would be the inability of some people to not recognize that disagreement with THEIR beliefs and behaviors does not equal 'harm done to others,' and to not recognize that their own imposition of beliefs/behaviors upon others is more harmful than those of whom they disapprove.

And when THE PERSON THEMSELVES claims harm done to them at the hands of religion (like the article copied into the OP)? What are we to do then, in your estimation? Ignore them? I'm sure you'd like that.

And asking (with the backing of the law in some instances) "Hey, can you not do that weird crap you do?" is not imposing any sort of belief or behavior on you. It's asking that you cut out part of your own behaviors in order to help stop something that people THEMSELVES (again, read the article copied into the OP) are reporting is harmful. If people disapprove of something you are doing to a large enough degree, then they might just get the authorities involved, and if it goes up the chain and what you're doing is then written into the law-books as ILLEGAL, then you're going to have to stop. I don't care what you believe or how much you think it wasn't hurting anyone.

In the end, like it or not, you can be subject to the judgment of your peers and you can be told what not to do. It's that simple, and it happens all the time. Let's say somebody creates a flying car in their backyard by harnessing "the power of God" - the first time somebody crashes into a 7-11 after all the religious-types start flying their "god cars" all over the place the authorities are going to require you to have a license to fly one, and they are going to start testing blood alcohol levels, and they are going to require that you buy insurance and register the vehicle, etc. etc. etc. See? You get imposed upon ALL THE TIME. And it will continue to happen. If it is at the expense of your religious convictions you can guess how much I care.

 

[dianaiad]

Atheism requires no proof.
It is the absence of a specific belief.
It does not assert anything to which ‘proof’ would apply.

Simple atheism requires no proof.
Neither does simple theism.

What DOES require proof is the declaration "There is no god' or 'there is a god and S/He/it looks like this, did that and wants this other thing"..

Not all atheists think alike.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The willful ignorance of some people to not recognize the harm done to others due to one's religious beliefs is probably the highlight of cognitive dissonance.

The ignorance is widespread and not limited to people with Faith. We are all ignorant, of many things.

It could be the greater harm, a ahrm spread to all humanity, is neglect of the implementation of what Faith is actually teaching. At the core it is about building loving families and communities based on virtues and service to each other.

Regards Tony