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The lie about the permissability of child marriage in Islam

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Wasp, Jul 16, 2019.

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  1. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    Child marriages happen in a lot of Muslim countries. That is a fact.

    But the claim that Islam permits child marriage - not to mention recommends it - is false and that is proven by the Qur'an surah an-Nisaa ayah 6 which reads:
    The word reach in the arabic language can also be translated as to mature, to come of age or to reach puberty. And there is no uncertainty about the word mature of mind which, in Arabic rushdan, translates as the former or as sound judgment.
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Would you explain the use of the word 'orphans'?
     
  3. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    This verse tells about guarding the property of orphans.

    Orphans are usually found to belong to the same species of homo sapiens as other children in the world. Do you disagree?
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Mohamed himself have a child bride, or two?
     
  5. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    No. Aisha was probably about 19 years old when she became a wife to the prophet.

    I don't know who's the second one you are referring to.
     
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  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    ***Mod: No debate is permitted in Dir areas. Avoid controversial challenges. Answer the OP, provide insight. If you can't say anything nice talk about the weather or go to a different area of the forum. ***
     
  7. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    The OP states 'child marriages', says nothing about orphans. I was thinking of arranged 'child' marriages.
     
  8. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    The thread is about child marriage. The verse just happens to be one that proves there is a limit to how young a person can marry.

    Arranged or not arranged - doesn't make a difference to this point.
     
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Wasp. I think he beat you in the argument.
     
  10. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    Yeah, he just keeps winning.
     
  11. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    She was much older according to calculations. But I'm sure you like your delusions too much to even think about it.
     
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  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    This is the "delusion" that you find on Muslim.org:
    Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage

    "He married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.”
    Bukhari, Book of Qualities of the Ansar, chapter: ‘The Holy Prophet’s marriage with Aisha, and his coming to Medina and the consummation of marriage with her’.
     
  13. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    People in Arabia didn't know their own age in those days.
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Please. I'm sure that with children, they had a very good idea. And we have the written records that I provided. That alone shows acceptance of sex by an adult with a child, indeed by the very founder of the religion.
     
  15. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    It's a historical fact they didn't.
    We have Aisha saying she was nine, but she didn't know how old she was.

    There are plenty of mistakes in ages of people described in the ahadith.
     
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Muslims accept that she was nine. Thus they accept pedophilia.
     
  17. Wasp

    Wasp Active Member

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    Change of argument, I see.

    Not sure what you mean. Is it that they accept the hadith? Or that some support the argument that she was indeed nine?

    The hadith is definitely authentic and as that it is accepted that Aisha said that she was nine.

    There are some Muslims, I'm not aware of such scholars but there may be some, who support the argument that she was indeed nine - often in support of child marriage.

    That "Muslims accept that she was nine" is false. It would indicate that Muslims as a group accept that, but they clearly don't.
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Are there individual Muslims that dont? sure. But as a generalization, it holds that they do. Bell shaped curve and all.
     
  19. Pastek

    Pastek Sunni muslim

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    What you say without knowing that much is not nice.
    Imagine people jumping to conclusion concerning the age of Rebecca, Isaac's wife ?
    There's people saying she was 3 years old when they married.

    I'm sure you would come to me explaining with verses that it wasn't true.
    Imagine how it is for us having to do that all the time.

    Of course I don't believe that Isaac married a 3 years old girl (so don't need to explain to me) but that what some people think.
    (at least I see a lot of people asking that on internet)
    So thank you for not saying the word pe***ile or child molester, this is harsh and not fair.
    That some muslims believe Aisha was that young it's their problem but it's not what every muslims believe.
    Just as I'm sure some jews or christians may defend some things that other will reject.

    ------------------------------------------
    Anyway.
    Everyone can think what he wants but concerning Aicha we have few elements to determine the dates/events.
    You can't jump to conclusion without trying to verify if what is said is correct.
    With this we can try to have approximately the date of her marriage with the Prophet.
    If someone is really interested here are what we know :


    -ISLAM REVELATION : 609-610

    (...)Three years later, in 610, Muhammad started preaching these revelations publicly
    Muhammad - Wikipedia

    (...) Muhammad, through the archangel Gabriel incrementally over a period of some 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609
    Quran - Wikipedia

    Muhammad's wife Khadija was the first to believe he was a prophet.
    She was followed by Muhammad's ten-year-old cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib, close friend ABU BAKR and adopted son Zaid.
    Around 613, Muhammad began to preach to the public.

    In the beginning the Prophet didn't preach to people except to few close people.
    In general the dates are : Revelation 610, preach to people of Mecca 613
    Abu Bakr
    was among the first people who believed in 610.


    -SUPPOSED BIRTH OF AICHA : 610-614


    Aishah bint Abī Bakr ( c. 613/614 – c. 678 CE)
    Aisha - Wikipedia

    "The idea to match Aisha with Muhammad was suggested after the death of Muhammad's first wife, Khadija bint Khuwaylid.
    After this, the previous agreement regarding the marriage of Aisha with Jubayr ibn Mut'im was put aside by common consent."

    Here there's important elements :
    *Khadija died in 619 Khadija bint Khuwaylid - Wikipedia
    *Jubayr wasn't muslim in the beginning and Aicha was "supposed" to be born after the Revelation and after the conversion of her father Abu Baker (610). (so wasn't supposed to marry a pagan)
    Jubayr ibn Mut'im - Wikipedia


    "Aisha died at her home in Medina on 17 Ramadan 58 AH (16 July 678). She was 67 years old"
    Aisha - Wikipedia

    I don't know for you but for me 678-67 = 611

    She was born in 613-613 in the beginning of the Wikipedia's page. This lead to the age of 6 for the marriage.
    But if she was born in 611 then she was 9 during her marriage (not consummated I precise).



    -ASMA SISTER OF AICHA :

    Asmā bint Abu Bakr ‎ c. 595 – 692 CE
    She was Abu Bakr's daughter.
    The historians Ibn Kathir and Ibn 'Asakir cite a tradition that Asma was 10 years older than Aisha; but according to Al-Dhahabi, the age difference was thirteen to nineteen years.
    692: Death : Asma died a few days after her son who was killed on Tuesday 17 Jumada al-Ula in 73 AH".
    Asma died when she was 100 years old
    .

    Ok, let's do the maths again.
    Let's say she was 10 y older than Aicha.
    If Asma was born in 595 so Aicha was supposed to be born in 605 (not 611 or 613-614)

    Asma died in 692 . For me 692-595 : 97 years old not 100
    As you can see we don't have exact dates ...

    If the date of death is true then she was born in 592.
    Then Aicha was born 10 years later in 602
    Anyway 602 or 605 it's not like 613/614

    This means Aicha was much older during at her marriage. (again not consummated as it was few years later)

    It was said above that the son of Asma died the same year in 692 "She passed away ten days after death of her son"
    Her son AbdAllah died in 692 in this page :
    Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr - Wikipedia


    "Aisha's age at marriage has been a source of controversy and debate, and some historians, scholars and writers have revisited the previously-accepted timeline of her life.
    Some writers have calculated Aisha's age based on details found in some biographies, eschewing the traditionally-accepted ahadith. One hadith recorded in the works of some medieval scholars, including al-Dhahabi, states that Aisha's older sister Asma was ten years older than her.
    This has been combined with information about Asma's age at the time of her death and used to suggest that Aisha was over thirteen at the time of her marriage."

    Aisha - Wikipedia


    Of course there's other contradicting hadiths and dates but I think this is enought long.
    Thanks for reading and searching the truth.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Who?
     
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