The Libertarian Delusion...

[Sunstone]

The Libertarian Delusion | BillMoyers.com

Interesting article. Not likely to change the minds of any true believers, though. But the article seems pretty solid, anyway. Please discuss.

 

[Valjean]

Great article. Thanks.
I've been a fan of Bill Moyers for years.

 

[Revoltingest]

What else could we expect from The American Prospect magazine?
Founded by Robt Reich & such ilk, they identify as "lefty", so it's their job to oppose libertarians.
About Us
As many examples of free market failures as they find, they fail to notice the complicity of government in fomenting those failures, eg, creation of incentives for market bubbles prone to bursting. Moreover, Kuttner argues only against an extreme version of libertarianism. It isn't analysis....it's just blind advocacy for another failed system, ie, the highly bureaucratized military welfare state. And note that the latter failed system is no extreme concoction serving as a straw man....it's the actual system which they put into place.

We "true believers" aren't persuaded to abandon our values by such facile arguments. You shouldn't want us to. You need us to temper the economic impotency imposed by your top down government managed economy. We will always be a very useful fringe.

 

[Sunstone]

What else could we expect from The American Prospect magazine?
Founded by Robt Reich & such ilk, they identify as "lefty", so it's their job to oppose libertarians.
About Us
As many examples of free market failures as they find, they fail to notice the complicity of government in fomenting those failures, eg, creation of incentives for market bubbles prone to bursting. Moreover, Kuttner argues only against an extreme version of libertarianism. It isn't analysis....it's just blind advocacy for another failed system, ie, the highly bureaucratized military welfare state. And note that the latter failed system is no extreme concoction serving as a straw man....it's the actual system which they put into place.

We "true believers" aren't persuaded to abandon our values by such facile arguments. You shouldn't want us to. You need us to temper the economic impotency imposed by your top down government managed economy. We will always be a very useful fringe.

You won't be a "very useful fringe" if all you do is make rhetorical statements with nothing to back them up. For instance, do you have any actual examples of "the complicity of government in fomenting those failures"? Or is that just rhetoric?

 

[Revoltingest]

You won't be a "very useful fringe" if all you do is make rhetorical statements with nothing to back them up. For instance, do you have any actual examples of "the complicity of government in fomenting those failures"? Or is that just rhetoric?

It seems you hadn't bothered to read any of my several prior detailed posts in other threads about how the government set the stage for recent housing bubble & crash. (t's so much easier to presume it's mere rhetoric. But I forgive you because I do post an awful lot of blather.) I've done far more than link an article, & just say "Discuss".
But I only speak of others (those actually in politics) as being useful. Personally, I only vote....& that is a very useless act.

 

[Sunstone]

It seems you hadn't bothered to read any of my several prior detailed posts in other threads about how the government set the stage for recent housing bubble & crash. (t's so much easier to presume it's mere rhetoric. But I forgive you because I do post an awful lot of blather.) I've done far more than link an article, & just say "Discuss".
But I only speak of others (those actually in politics) as being useful. Personally, I only vote....& that is a very useless act.

I quit reading most of your posts more than a year ago after I realized you have tendency to regurgitate right-wing fabrications as truth. Nowadays, I only read the occasional post by you, so it's quite possible I did miss "several of your prior detailed posts in other threads". I presume they were the usual regurgitations, though.

 

[Revoltingest]

I quit reading most of your posts more than a year ago after I realized you have tendency to regurgitate right-wing fabrications as truth. Nowadays, I only read the occasional post by you, so it's quite possible I did miss "several of your prior detailed posts in other threads". I presume they were the usual regurgitations, though.

And despite your not reading my posts, you pontificate about their content, eh?
Also, those in glass houses shouldn't regurgitate stones.
Don't be a hater.

 

[freethinker44]

We will always be a very useful fringe.

Useful in shrinking the republican voter pool because a libertarian candidate is running (but not winning).

 

[Revoltingest]

Useful in shrinking the republican voter pool because a libertarian candidate is running (but not winning).

Caution!
Right wing regurgitation below:

That seems to be the case, but I don't know. Some Libs were Pubs because they're small government fans but socially liberal. And some Libs were Dems cuz they're socially liberal but want smaller government. We didn't feel at home in those parties. Even I voted Dem (anyone but Nixon) in my 1st prez election, but found them to be weak on both social & economic liberty.

About the only real use we'll ever be is to influence both parties in the direction of free market solutions to various problems.
Example:
I favor a high fuel tax in preference to regulating & subsidizing more efficient vehicles. The same goal can be better achieved by different means.

 

[Revoltingest]

I ran across something today on another forum. The poster had a personal connection with the victim in this police shooting.
Man shot in face by Volusia County deputy dies

A Volusia County deputy is under investigation after shooting an unarmed man in the face and killing him while trying to serve a narcotics search warrant at a home in Deltona.
Derek Cruice, 26, was inside a home on Maybrook Drive, when a narcotics task force showed up with a warrant around 6:30 a.m. Wednesday.
The sheriff's office said Todd Raible, a SWAT team member who was working as a narcotics investigator, fired his weapon at Cruice after his actions caused the deputy to perceive a threat.
According to Volusia County Sheriff Ben Johnson, Cruice was one of six adults — four men and two women — inside the home at the time.
Cruice was taken to Florida Hospital Fish Memorial, in Orange City, where he was pronounced dead.
"They were met with resistance and a shooting incurred," Johnson said.
Some of the other people inside the home contradicted Johnson's account that task force members were met with resistance. Matthew Grady, 24, said he opened the door for deputies when the shooting happened. He claimed there was never any resistance.
"There's a couple of seconds between opening the door, walking out, getting to my knee, and halfway out there's gunfire," Grady said. "I look back as the guy's grabbing me, and my friend is dead or dying."
When asked if Cruice met resistance, Grady replied: "No."
The men who were inside the house said there were no firearms or narcotics. Deputies later confirmed Cruice was not armed during the incident.

Now, one might wonder what the connection here is with the "Libertarian delusion".
Well, I'll tell ya.....
In the linked article about this apparently unjust execution of a young man, we see no mention of the race of the shooter (cop) or the victim. One may correctly deduce from this that the victim is white. So this doesn't show up in national news.....no one is chanting "<such & such race> lives matter"....& Al Sharpton is just sleeping in late. This is the liberal delusion, ie, that injustice is something which exists only for those without "privilege". The libertarian view is that there is a problem with murderous & unaccountable cops & courts, & that they are a threat to us all...not just black folk. I joined the party in part because they fight injustices ignored by Pubs & Dems, eg, the military draft, civil forfeiture without due process, the surveillance state, ballooning government, dysfunctional taxation, broken tort system, the police state, etc.

 

[Marisa]

Caution!
Right wing regurgitation below:

That seems to be the case, but I don't know. Some Libs were Pubs because they're small government fans but socially liberal. And some Libs were Dems cuz they're socially liberal but want smaller government. We didn't feel at home in those parties. Even I voted Dem (anyone but Nixon) in my 1st prez election, but found them to be weak on both social & economic liberty.

About the only real use we'll ever be is to influence both parties in the direction of free market solutions to various problems.
Example:
I favor a high fuel tax in preference to regulating & subsidizing more efficient vehicles. The same goal can be better achieved by different means.

That's very true, there's almost always more than one solution to a given problem. I come along into the mix and ask "who's hurt when the tax code is used to influence behavior?"

 

[Marisa]

I ran across something today on another forum. The poster had a personal connection with the victim in this police shooting.
Man shot in face by Volusia County deputy dies


Now, one might wonder what the connection here is with the "Libertarian delusion".
Well, I'll tell ya.....
In the linked article about this apparently unjust execution of a young man, we see no mention of the race of the shooter (cop) or the victim. One may correctly deduce from this that the victim is white. So this doesn't show up in national news.....no one is chanting "<such & such race> lives matter"....& Al Sharpton is just sleeping in late. This is the liberal delusion, ie, that injustice is something which exists only for those without "privilege". The libertarian view is that there is a problem with murderous & unaccountable cops & courts, & that they are a threat to us all...not just black folk. I joined the party in part because they fight injustices ignored by Pubs & Dems, eg, the military draft, civil forfeiture without due process, the surveillance state, ballooning government, dysfunctional taxation, broken tort system, the police state, etc.

I disagree. Do you remember the skitzophrenic homeless kid that was beaten to death, on video, by cops, while screaming for his father? That guy was white, and liberals were insanely outraged, along with everyone else. I don't like arguments like yours because they seem to be saying that because militarized police forces affect white folks too, that there is no such thing as institutionalized racism.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's very true, there's almost always more than one solution to a given problem. I come along into the mix and ask "who's hurt when the tax code is used to influence behavior?"

Even worse I believe, is when government fails to understand or predict how tax policy influences behavior.
Example:
Real estate owners who find themselves underwater & unable to make loan payments will try to renegotiate the principal & overdue interest amounts. Banks will do this, but there's a problem. The fed will tax any negotiated reduction in principal & interest at the full income tax rate. So many who could otherwise survive, just go bankrupt, & lose everything. I know people who had this happen. It almost happened to me.
Caution: Accountingspeak to follow:
The GAAP & more productive way to handle it would be to treat a principal discount as a reduction in basis. The interest waived should have no tax consequences at all (for those not using the accrual system).

 

[Marisa]

Even worse I believe, is when government fails to understand or predict how tax policy influences behavior.
Example:
Real estate owners who find themselves underwater & unable to make loan payments will try to renegotiate the principal & overdue interest amounts. Banks will do this, but there's a problem. The fed will tax any negotiated away principal & interest at the full income tax rate. So many who could otherwise survive, just go bankrupt, & lose everything. I know people who had this happen. It almost happened to me.
Caution: Accountingspeak to follow:
The GAAP & more productive way to handle it would be to treat a principal discount as a reduction in basis. The interest waived should have no tax consequences at all (for those not using the accrual system).

And from my perspective, I see a bank preying on people experiencing financial difficulty. As a homeowner myself, I'm inundated with phone calls and direct mailings from banks wanting me to refinance my home loan. It's profit for them, but I have to close again, which unless we're talking about an interest rate drop of more than 1% (much more) is never going to work out to my benefit.

Again, because you and I have had this conversation before, corporations and businesses exist to make profit. There's nothing wrong with that. Government's role is to regulate so that this profit isn't at the expense of us humans. I agree with you that regulations can be too extreme, that's a valid argument. But that doesn't mean that all regulation is too extreme.

 

[Revoltingest]

I disagree. Do you remember the skitzophrenic homeless kid that was beaten to death, on video, by cops, while screaming for his father? That guy was white, and liberals were insanely outraged, along with everyone else. I don't like arguments like yours because they seem to be saying that because militarized police forces affect white folks too, that there is no such thing as institutionalized racism.

Oh, but I don't deny the fact that racism is epidemic in the system.
It's erroneous to infer that.
The difference is that I see a greater systemic problem, ie, that injustice rains down upon all who aren't politically connected. The fact that some groups suffer from exacerbating factors such as racism, sexism, ageism, & class should not distract from the larger problem. And this is a problem with liberals, ie, they don't stand up as much as I believe they should against general governmental oppression & abuse. The latter even serves their goals of entrenching political power & collecting revenue. I notice that the left & Dems don't loudly decry Obama's suppression of whistle blowers, his pursuit of Snowden, his expansion of domestic surveillance, & his involvement in militarization of police.

 

[Revoltingest]

And from my perspective, I see a bank preying on people experiencing financial difficulty. As a homeowner myself, I'm inundated with phone calls and direct mailings from banks wanting me to refinance my home loan. It's profit for them, but I have to close again, which unless we're talking about an interest rate drop of more than 1% (much more) is never going to work out to my benefit.

I've seen predatory behavior by some banks too.
But at least I have the ability to avoid them.
Government though....it's inescapable.

Speaking of government, my difficulties with a lender were exacerbated by their refusing to renew several commercial loans. With no banks lending money at the time, refinance was impossible. So I went into foreclosure. Nasty bank, eh? Well, my lender was owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is owned by the British government. I really lucked out when they sold my loans to a private American equity company. They were reasonable in solving all problems, & were a joy to deal with. Government isn't ever here to help me....they're just in the way, pursuing me for money to spend bombing random countries into the stone age.

Again, because you and I have had this conversation before, corporations and businesses exist to make profit. There's nothing wrong with that. Government's role is to regulate so that this profit isn't at the expense of us humans. I agree with you that regulations can be too extreme, that's a valid argument.

The problem with government is that it too is all about profit...or more accurately, revenue. They pursue it at all costs to the source, even if it would destroy them.

But that doesn't mean that all regulation is too extreme.

Well, of course....I've long advocated useful regulation. It's only excessive & wrongful regulation which I oppose.

 

[Marisa]

Oh, but I don't deny the fact that racism is epidemic in the system.
It's erroneous to infer that.
The difference is that I see a greater systemic problem, ie, that injustice rains down upon all who aren't politically connected. The fact that some groups suffer from exacerbating factors such as racism, sexism, ageism, & class should not distract from the larger problem. And this is a problem with liberals, ie, they don't stand up as much as I believe they should against general governmental oppression & abuse. The latter even serves their goals of entrenching political power & collecting revenue. I notice that the left & Dems don't loudly decry Obama's suppression of whistle blowers, his pursuit of Snowden, his expansion of domestic surveillance, & his involvement in militarization of police.

I'm struck by your use of the word "distract". It's kind of dismissive, IMO. It's as if institutionalized racism is small potatoes in light of the fact that whites can be the victims of injustice, too.

I disagree with you that liberals don't stand up against governmental overreach. I think we have different priorities. Isn't the movement toward LGBTQ equality largely driven by liberals? What about the movement to preserve a woman's right to own her body, 100% of the time? The push to preserve our climate is so liberal, it's often called "far left".

Liberalism isn't solely exemplified by one's protection or condemnation of Obama. There are as many different kinds of liberals as there are of conservatives. I identify with much of the DNC's platform, but not with most of the DNC candidates' actions, but then those actions are tempered by ideologies like yours, and others.

IMO, Obama is too conservative. I'm guessing we disagree on that.

 

[Marisa]

Government isn't ever here to help me....they're just in the way, pursuing me for money to spend bombing random countries into the stone age.

I'm guessing that you and I will have much to agree with in terms of foreign policy.

Well, of course....I've long advocated useful regulation. It's only excessive & wrongful regulation which I oppose.

Agreed. But then we get to discuss what's excessive and wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm struck by your use of the word "distract". It's kind of dismissive, IMO. It's as if institutionalized racism is small potatoes in light of the fact that whites can be the victims of injustice, too.

To say it's "small potatoes" is another false inference.
It is possible to have multiple major problems.
My complaint is that liberals focus upon a few groups who suffer.
I focus upon the fact that all suffer, & the system needs to be redesigned for all, not just a few.

I disagree with you that liberals don't stand up against governmental overreach. I think we have different priorities. Isn't the movement toward LGBTQ equality largely driven by liberals? What about the movement to preserve a woman's right to own her body, 100% of the time? The push to preserve our climate is so liberal, it's often called "far left".

Look at the largest protests against cops who kill.....it's only about black males, even though a larger number of white males die.
Did you notice that you spoke of a woman's bodily autonomy? Instead, I see bodily autonomy as an issue for all genders. The left doesn't focus upon men's. I see a more general case regarding civil liberties.

Liberalism isn't solely exemplified by one's protection or condemnation of Obama. There are as many different kinds of liberals as there are of conservatives. I identify with much of the DNC's platform, but not with most of the DNC candidates' actions, but then those actions are tempered by ideologies like yours, and others.
IMO, Obama is too conservative. I'm guessing we disagree on that.

I see Obama as too authoritarian & liberal (in the leftish sense....not classical).
The continued wasteful & deadly overseas wars are neither left nor right, which is why we see both Dems & Pubs pursuing them, & their voters re-electing presidents who continue them. Thus, I eschew the Big Two, & switched to the Libertarian Party. It offers a better "delusion".

 

[Mequa]

Personally, I despise radical Right-Wing Libertarians.

I see no reason to respect anyone advocating a political ideology that, if implemented, would lead to my death.