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The Liars Among Us are Our Thieves, Our Rapists, Our Murderers...

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by Sunstone, Mar 2, 2021.

  1. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    By 'among us' I mostly mean on the net, in the media, and in government -- in every nation. That's for starters. Compared to that, RF isn't large enough to be at most more than a drop in the bucket of the group I'm talking about when I say 'among us'.​



    From our birth to our death, we humans use our knowledge as the raw material and resource to build ideas that serve us as maps to navigate the world in which we live, in order to get what we need and want out of our lives.

    Is that not true? The gist of it?

    What, then is a liar, but a thief of our will, our autonomy, our freedom, and whatever might be our right to govern ourselves? A thief of our goals, our ambitions, and dreams --- who takes over and navigates us to his or her own destinations, and to our unforeseen rocks?

    What, then is a liar, but one who, through negligence or with intent, deceives us into potentially murdering our own work to improve our own lives?

    What, then, is a liar, but a rapist of sorts who takes at his will, without any right of his own, whatever he needs of us to chain and enslave us as his tools -- all 'simply' by faking our maps with falsehoods, false hopes, and hidden lies?

    Can't see lying in an actual rapist? Ever been lured by lies into approaching a car or van? I stopped a woman from walking just like that towards a pale green car that she herself could see had pulled over so a friendly, but confused man, might politely ask her for directions. He even had his large brown-bag lunch right by his side. Obviously, he was as he said, missing his lunch break because he'd gotten lost running an errand for his demanding boss.

    That was my future first wife. She was so physically beautiful, I knew she could become a target. I'd first noticed her myself when I was eating in a huge cafeteria and turned to see what could cause a room so large with an at least 30 foot high ceiling to suddenly about two-thirds hush. A few weeks later, I met her at a party.

    That's when I decided there was a good chance she mostly always wore black. I drew the logical conclusion: People admired women in black far and away more than I had ever suspected, but now I was at last beginning to empathize with their feelings -- quite obviously, I concluded I had entered my long-delayed growth spurt to achieve emotional maturity.

    Too easy for someone to focus on her in a crowd -- and through no fault of her own. I was soon enough worried that she was late.

    She grew up in Europe mostly. Graduated form a boarding school in Switzerland at a time when French girls hitchhiked long distances alone. Too soon back in America to reorient herself to a country she'd only lived in two full years anyway.

    When I decided she was running too late that day, I had by then already packed my own preferred style of brown-bag lunch (in a real brown bag, by the way, I am nothing if not properly detailed and polished whenever aligning myself for a side attack from a distance against any kind of criminal assault). Then I started quickly walking back along the path I knew she would be taking to meet me -- if she still could. Every friend of a woman, beautiful or not, boyfriend or not, knows what I'm talking about, knows that feeling,

    When I first saw her, she was still standing in place, talking with him twenty-five or so feet from his car. A minute later, she took her first step. That's when I broke into a race.

    Lying is almost always in some way intrinsic to rape. In a way, the two words are in the same family, and in some sense -- even when applied to politics, and to the will of the people to govern themselves.​

    Comments?

    Anyone commenting is welcome to suggest how they believe they should be treated by other posters here on RF in the hypothetical and unlikely event they were to post a potentially harmful lie? Or perhaps, if in an equally improbable hypothetical event, they were to stubbornly refused to see as false and harmful something they posted. Either one does for the definition of 'liar', so far as I'm concerned.

    Got any kids? If I had kids, I'd take lying seriously, after seeing how 1/6 came about. Won't be much of a life for kids today, only a few years from today, if that BS doesn't stop. Don't you think?

    It does not matter which side you think the BS was poured from, does it? If you think 1/6 could not have come about without some kind of BS, then think of the kids, even a kid that isn't your own. The BS has to stop, unless you hate those kids.


    When you have no self-respect, when you won't stand up for yourself, some real thing, some reality soon enough rolls over you, right? What if you thought you were standing up for yourself, but someone had lied to you about that, had painted a target on you instead -- for that real thing, for that reality?

    The Lakota put to death any scout willing to lie to his own people.

    My 2 cents. Your own mileage may vary, and that's your call. Just as it ought always to be when you're not trapping or tricking anyone as a consequence of your words and convictions other than yourself.

    Especially not trapping future generations. If you are, and you don't care, something that was once you has died.


     
    #1 Sunstone, Mar 2, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  2. Laika

    Laika Well-Known Member
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    I look forward to you volunteering the information on whether you have done drugs, stolen office stationary, shop lifted, or downloaded or viewed copyrighted material illegally. I’m sure the police will appreciate your co-operation.

    I look forward to you condemning the lies adults tell children about Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

    I look forward to reading the explicit details of your sexual fantasies and if you feel turned on by particular garments, tight jeans, people coming out soaking wet from the swimming pool. Whose that co-worker you fantasise about at inappropriate moments? Do you ever consider sleeping with a person whose married?

    I look forward to discussions on how you dealt with the death of a loved one, whether you’ve ever had suicidal or violent thoughts. Perhaps you ever get the sudden urge to walk out in to traffic, or feel uncomfortable arounds guns and knives.

    Lets discuss it all. Because if lying is the rape of the mind, I’m sure rape victims will appreciate having to relive the experience because lying about it is worse.

    Or can we accept that innocent people lie and move on? This neo-Mccarthyist bs of presuming guilt and that no-one has anything to hide will end badly.

    Cue chanting of: “She’s a witch! She’s a witch! She’s a witch! “
     
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  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    We are all thieves so that point is moot....

    Lying can lead to people doing things that will get them killed or kill others. In all the world only one religion can be true, but so many people have died for so many different religions that at best all but one religion are lies that caused the death of many people.

    Lying isn't equivalent to rape though, and falls into the same line of reasoning that compares that people criticising conservatives are the same as Nazi's persecuting Jews. So that isn't acceptable. Even in your example, lying acts as the lure and not the act of rape itself, so they aren't comparable. Another difference is that rape by definition is not consensual. People consent to lies if they believe in them and do not feel violated. They might be manipulated into the act but aren't forced into the act.

    The sad truth is that with claims that we cannot examine ourselves, such as scientific claims, religious experiences etc., we are always handing over authority to those we trust as experts and for all we know they could be lying to us or have misinformation or were lied to. At any given time we are believing in lies and we even lie to ourselves.

    When it comes to harmful lies, how do we qualify a lie? And how does that reflect on religion? A few of us consider many religions to be lies and people end up dying for that lie, making the lie harmful. Should we deal with people propagating those religious thoughts in a harsh manner?

    So what do you consider a harmful lie? And what do you think should be done if the person genuinely believes what you think is a lie to be the truth?
     
    #3 Israel Khan, Mar 2, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  4. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    Can I correct the thread title


    The Liars Among Us are Our TV hosts, Our Politicians, Our Bankers...
     
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  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Reminds me of my mom, to play devil's advocate.
    She was very authoritarian, extremely strict, and didn't allow me to do that much, to very unreasonable ends even. It was so bad that lying to her became the only way I could many things, even normal age appropriate things. I was never at a concert, I was at a race with squeaky clean friend. I was concocting plots to have reasons to be a friend's parent's house to use their phone (my mom expected the number on caller ID to be from that number), multiple times a night sometimes, so I could go spend the night at a friend's house. Various movies and TV shows were watched after she went to bed and with the volume down to just above mute so she couldn't hear it, but I could hear her if she was stirring and about to check on me, giving me time to change the channel before she could see what I was watching. I also got really good at hiding stuff (she was not above confiscating and breaking things she did not approve of, and she is a prude). And really good at lying. But without lying my childhood would have been more miserably than it already was.
    It also got me a job as a case manager. The lies were basically for the job interview, making myself seem more like them than I am, even up to making a plebeian "joke" about math being hard when one of the interviewers mentioned something about it (they found that's not the case and I'm actually good with numbers when I was running calculations in my head faster than they could do then on a calculator).
    I was curiously honest with one of my bosses though. And it is the only job I was promoted at and got ahead at, and I did it during the Recession when the company was reshuffling and rearranging itself, and I did well enough then I walked out of the Recession with home ownership. How was I honest with this boss? I told him what I thought of him, and it including things like "you lying sack of ****" and "**** you." I did my job very well, but I did often warn "Pinocchio" to not get too close because his nose might poke my eye out. I got so high up in that company there were only three people above me, the president and vice president of operations, and my boss, a man I called a "****ing idiot" and walked out on once because of how severely he bungled an inventory and made an inventory already way behind take even longer. Did I mention a few of us protesting and no-showing at a store lead to me being a home owner?
    It seems to me it's about as weird and crazy as this world of ours.
     
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  6. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I think anyone reading your post would be likely to swallow your accidental misunderstanding of what I said. Especially given how dramatically you rise to wildly speculate about my OPs many and various fantastic and perverted dangerous inanities, monstrous whatnots, and so on and so forth. Mistakes do happen though.

    Can you lay out your reasons and conclusions without making them anywhere as close as you have to appearing to be merely gratuitously emotional detours in order to avoid actually talking straight to the points made in my OP? I'm sure it was accidental that you misinterpreted everything I said. So, no problem correcting your own mistakes, right?

    I mean, there are always these days on the net too many people who would likely assume that any refusal to promptly correct a misleading post or statement as blatant and shameless evidence that someone is a self-serving liar indifferent to the harm lying does to people who aren't the honorably intended target of their lying. None of us want those kinds of conclusions made about us just because we made a mistake, right?

    Also, if you get a chance, can you get to straight to the point describing what's the worst thing you think contemporary propaganda could do in the way of harming common people in your country and in mine? As as potential, I mean.

    Just a note: I don't usually read such reactions as yours, especially when expressed in emphatic theatrical language. Me, I prefer more metaphorical turns and twists than anything I myself might likely warp my mind with if I were even to simply be trying to express my honest and well-considered thoughts and reasoning. But, everyone has their own right to stick to their way of stating their critical thinking on something. And, likewise, their own right to stick to what they ignore the next time around, and most likely the ones after that, too.

    To be sure, I don't want to give the impression to any bystanders who might be listening that I would neglect my duty to report to the mods any posts I can reasonably conclude might be violations of the Forum rules. But I always recuse myself in any cases personally involving me, and refuse to have any hand in the mod decisions, which are always reached by a consensus of three mods.

    That was the consensus rule I myself put in place to lessen as well as practically could be the effects that any one mod's bias might have on any member's reported post. Of course the staff is the best I've seen in my 16 years at reaching disciplined, fair, and reasonable conclusions about whether someone's post has violated a rule. We got lucky because we were able to hire some exceptionally good, fair, and reasonable people, and we also said goodbye to one or two basically good people, but who we noticed didn't live up to our expectations. But still, good staff or not, humans are humans. I like my consensus rule.

    After all, truth matters. Even to liars at times. It's worth making any reasonable effort to get at it.

    1/6 was a ***** of a wake up call, wasn't it?

    Now, right there -- that was indeed a case of when truth mattered, and truth was denied.

    With Washington as it is, I've been thinking, if the people want to keep their democracy, then it's going to start down on the local level. Only then, with effort and pain can there be any chance of even a bare solution. The grass roots must rise up.

    But you're an authoritarians, aren't you? Not fond of democracy, I guess. I could be wrong about that, though. I don't really understand authoritarian thinking, so I could easily be wrong here. Anyway, I'll quit boring you.

    Maybe check back later to see if you have had time to correct how you misrepresented by accident my OP.
     
  7. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    No kidding! Every day it seems to get worse. Gods, I never thought I'd be one to think that sort of view was realism.

    Something's driving the propaganda, Wolf, as you know. The Millennial commentators you can find on their YouTube channels -- the best of them -- seem to have the best handle on that. If you know anything about them, I'd appreciate your take on them.

    Right and left, both sides agree on the facts.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Now to reverse things and go back to the job where I was high up in the company:
    I do agree with some these that might seem "extreme" at first, but it is accurate. Such as, I was my boss's assistant, and it was our faces and names attached to these inventories and the paperwork signed over it. If something went wrong, store and district managers went looking for us. If things went well, they would be praising us for a good inventory. And looking good, having good numbers, things looking right, and the final product is what mattered. Everything else was a means to that end. And we did have one of the top teams in the nation because of it. While we were all legit good at our job (had to be for the team we were on), we were all very good at cheating (which heavily depended upon not getting caught doing it). Taking advantage of loopholes was common. Fraud did happen on at least two occasions. The finished count and all that was spectacular, we usually finished ahead of time, but it was all a facade, and I doubt anyone would trust this company if they knew half of what I know because I do see the potential for this causing some nasty problems for companies if anyone goes over things with a fine toothed comb, or bring in another inventory company who will produce huge discrepancies when they don't have last year's numbers to just put down a number close enough within a range that no one is going to go back and check.
     
  9. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    First question I would have for you about your post -- that is, if you were a student in anyone's philosophy class -- I'd ask what your working standards are for 'truth', to be honest. But on the net, that's just going to come across to people these days as some kind of veiled sign I'm involved in some conspiracy against whoever their master is, because to them, I just signaled I was an alien of some sort by asking about truth. So, it's not a real question. But trying to figure out what someone's standards are is to me just seeing which tuning fork they use. I don't do it unless I can't get enough sense of it on my own. That's no more a judgement of you than my saying, "I can't solve this math problem."

    By way, I wouldn't want to teach a class of anything. I hate teaching. I've only done it sometimes -- mostly on RF -- out of some confused sense of duty. I just speak my mind while trying to practice my writing skills these days.

    .
     
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  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I use Youtube predominately to watch music videos and the occasional Monty Python skit and TED talk. I don't know any of these people doing their video blogs or whatever. Even a transgender one I've heard about from a few people, it's meh to me, and rare for me to even get into a TV or radio talk show (Bill Maher's show is about it anymore).
     
  11. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    We tell lies from early childhood and carry on through our adult lives. For the last six years of my mother's life I lied to her every time I saw her, which was about three times a week.
     
  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    You are sounding a bit like Pontius Pilate there. :D

    Logically and philosophically I am a solipsist. Empirically and through my intuition I accept that there is absolute truth until it can be examined that that is not the case. But the more I think of the information we are given through media, the more I realise that I am handing over determining what truth is to those who I am told are more qualified than I am. So other people are dictating to me what is truth in many cases, I cannot verify what they say myself. That isn't saying that I don't listen to them, but I question why I just accept what they say.

    COVID is a good example. Why did I accept it and make decisions based off of that "knowledge" if I didn't see evidence for it? I should have only accepted it once I came across people who displayed uncanny symptoms showing that a new virus was out there. And even now all I know for sure is that there is a new virus out there. I cannot verify any of the other details such as origin.

    So then what is the relevance of information that I cannot verify? I would think that it is the narrative and the impact that narrative has on you. Whether it was first a lie or not, it eventually becomes truth to you because it impacts your life unless you can verify that that "truth" contradicts logic or reality.

    So when it comes to determining truth vs lies, I understand if we can say something is a lie if we determine that from verifiable reality. But if its the case of one article saying that "this happened" vs another saying "something else happened" then on what basis are we believing one side vs another?
     
  13. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    What in your view has that got to do with your personal take on the kind of lying as described in the OP? I cannot fathom 9 dimensional chess moves even when Washington politicians make them a thousand times a day. I'm lost here. Any effort to place your reaction in its proper context with the OP would be helpful.

    By the way, the earliest report on lying in children I can find was that of a psychologist who noted that his daughter might have said something intentionally deceptive at 36 months. That would be about 6 months earlier than first efforts are usually observed in labs. I was wondering if you had heard of any earlier attempts yourself.

    Obviously, lying is a Lorentzian instinct that kicks in early in humans, but after all, we are both social animals and predators. Why would it not? It's like any gun. It's who it's aimed at that counts, right? Is it your intended friends, or is it something you want to eat -- in any sense of that word 'eat'.
     
  14. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I can see a lot in your response that factually jives at times with the science I've read on the unfolding of the lying instinct in humans -- which I've personally noticed in so many different children always follows the same overall pattern as describe in the science.

    We share some significant conclusions -- or at least ways of looking at the same things.

    Also, I see some similarities in the way you vet your sources and information.

    Thank you for your post. It's quite helpful, and obviously genuinely thoughtful.
     
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  15. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    hhhh
    Personal taste and opinion, of course, but I haven't found any real reason yet to distrust the two Millennials who host The Hill's program "The Rising". I try to take in two or three segments a day, if I can. I like how they don't talk down to their audience, how they fly their speculations close to the facts, and especially how they never really talk over each other, nor their guests.

    Ball is the woman's stage name. Saager is most likely the man's birth name, I'd guess. The woman, of course, has every reason to use a pseudonym, even more than most men.

    It's a close call, but they are my odds on guess at the most knowledgeable and most often insightful of the group, that I've come across yet.
     
  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    That is interesting. This could be a case of different paths leading to the same conclusions in many aspects.

    I have come to my conclusions through studying religion and tribalism which I think is a different route to what you have taken. It seems that people don't care so much about truth and lies, but about what the group they identify with thinks. Certainly humans follow social and mental patterns to the point that we can generalise them into personality types and predictably control them using indoctrination, which seems to be a natural instinctual knowledge with a lot of leaders throughout history. Very fascinating.
     
  17. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member
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    Hmmm... Well, lying can be done to manipulate a person, or it can be done to manipulate a situation, but it's a finicky tool. It can be used for good, or it can be used for ill.

    I mean, we all lie from time to time. There definitely are types who we come to label as "liars," though. What does someone have to do to gain that label? Is it the amount of lies they tell? Is it the kind of lies they tell? What is the threshold one has to cross before they gain that label?

    Personally, I think it has more with the kind of lies people tell. Folks can understand lying to the Nazis in order to protect Jews they have hidden in their attics, but people are less sympathetic towards people lying about cheating on their wives or husbands...

    What makes lying any different than other forms of deception, though? They all have the same goals.
     
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  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, even omission is a form of deception. Withholding certain facts from someone can lead them to a different conclusion than if they had all the facts.
     
  19. whosetosay...

    whosetosay... Member

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    How would hatred fit in when akin to murder?
     
  20. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    In terms of the OP, can you see any reason to morally condemn lying in ways intended to misdirect people into thinking they are doing things that will get them what they want when in reality, they are being lied into doing things that won't get them what they want?
     
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