The Leftist 'No Religion' agenda on the census

[Augustus]

There's some vague guff about helping to planning services, but most of the relevant information is already held by government departments.

On account of them getting it from the census

I doubt it's much use for planning purposes, which is given as the justification.

Why do you doubt knowing population, age etc. is useful for planning purposes?

Do you think the government just randomly guesses how many schools places are likely to be needed for example?

 

[Martin]

On account of them getting it from the census



Why do you doubt knowing population, age etc. is useful for planning purposes?

Do you think the government just randomly guesses how many schools places are likely to be needed for example?

No, the Government already has this information. Everything is recorded and collated by the respective government departments, including all the data held by local councils. How do you think the ONS produces its regular reports?

As for estimating what new school places might be required, that can be estimated from birth records, local voting rolls/council tax registers and current nursery attendance. And of course the census is only done every 10 years, which would be no use for this purpose anyway.

So for example DWP and Inland Revenue have detailed records of all those working, retired, and in receipt of benefits. DES has detailed records of nursery, school and college populations. DHSC has detailed records of everyone registered with a GP and/or accessing NHS services. DVLA has detailed records of all drivers, and all vehicles on the road. And so on. And add to this all the information held by local councils.

In other words, local and central Government already has comprehensive data on pretty much every aspect of our lives, and plentiful information for planning services and infrastructure.
That's why I'm suggesting the census is now unnecessary and irrelevant, except possibly for future historians.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I hate religious questions on Censuses, because they're always poorly representative. Here we've got 31 Flavors of Christianity, a sprinkling of Judaism and Islam, and "Non-religious / No Religion". No representation for other religions, and we get tossed in with Atheism. It's crap.

 

[Augustus]

No, the Government already has this information. Everything is recorded and collated by the respective government departments, including all the data held by local councils. How do you think the ONS produces its regular reports?

As for estimating what new school places might be required, that can be estimated from birth records, local voting rolls/council tax registers and current nursery attendance. And of course the census is only done every 10 years, which would be no use for this purpose anyway.

So for example DWP and Inland Revenue have detailed records of all those working, retired, and in receipt of benefits. DES has detailed records of nursery, school and college populations. DHSC has detailed records of everyone registered with a GP and/or accessing NHS services. DVLA has detailed records of all drivers, and all vehicles on the road. And so on. And add to this all the information held by local councils.

In other words, local and central Government already has comprehensive data on pretty much every aspect of our lives, and plentiful information for planning services and infrastructure.
That's why I'm suggesting the census is now unnecessary and irrelevant, except possibly for future historians.

Per the ONS:

Local authorities and other public bodies
The census is important to local authorities across England and Wales. It is also vital to the government and many other public sector organisations.

This is because it gives them the information they need to:

• develop policies
• plan and run services, such as schools, health services, roads and libraries
• decide how to allocate funds to make sure public funds get to where they are needed most

For example, census data showing how many people work in different jobs and industries are used to develop new job and training policies. Information on how people travel to work and how many cars they have contributes to planning roads and transport.

About the census - Office for National Statistics


Being honest, which do you think is more likely to be true:

a) The ONS thinks the data provided is vital and is used for planning, but in fact they are wrong, it definitely isn't as they already have all the data they need, but they just haven't noticed yet and neither has anyone in government.
b) The ONS are lying for some unknown reason and doing a remarkable job keeping everyone silent about the conspiracy.
c) You are mistaken in your speculative assumptions about something you have no real expertise on.

 

[Martin]

Per the ONS:

Local authorities and other public bodies
The census is important to local authorities across England and Wales. It is also vital to the government and many other public sector organisations.

This is because it gives them the information they need to:

• develop policies
• plan and run services, such as schools, health services, roads and libraries
• decide how to allocate funds to make sure public funds get to where they are needed most

For example, census data showing how many people work in different jobs and industries are used to develop new job and training policies. Information on how people travel to work and how many cars they have contributes to planning roads and transport.

About the census - Office for National Statistics


Being honest, which do you think is more likely to be true:

a) The ONS thinks the data provided is vital and is used for planning, but in fact they are wrong, it definitely isn't as they already have all the data they need, but they just haven't noticed yet and neither has anyone in government.
b) The ONS are lying for some unknown reason and doing a remarkable job keeping everyone silent about the conspiracy.
c) You are mistaken in your speculative assumptions about something you have no real expertise on.

As I explained, local and central government already have the information they need for the kind of purposes mentioned above, eg planning schools, health, roads and libraries. And a lot of the census information isn't even relevant for the purposes stated, eg religious denomination.

Maybe they're still running the census because they can, not because they really need the extra bits of information, but because they want it. I've seen this before in the NHS, where I used to work as an Information Analyst. People who work with data always want more of it, though they're not always clear about what they're going to do with it.

Or maybe it serves some other purpose which they are not telling us about. That's quite possible.
And I would love to know what "develop policies" means. That's so vague as to be meaningless.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Though the various departments and agencies have data they are restricted on what they can share, because of the data laws.
The census data is the only time identifiable personal data all comes together in one place

 

[Augustus]

As I explained, local and central government already have the information they need for the kind of purposes mentioned above, eg planning schools, health, roads and libraries. And a lot of the census information isn't even relevant for the purposes stated, eg religious denomination.

Maybe they're still running the census because they can, not because they really need the extra bits of information, but because they want it. I've seen this before in the NHS, where I used to work as an Information Analyst. People who work with data always want more of it, though they're not always clear about what they're going to do with it.

Or maybe it serves some other purpose which they are not telling us about. That's quite possible.
And I would love to know what "develop policies" means. That's so vague as to be meaningless

The thing is they don't have all the information asked for in the census. Just read the questions (house occupancy and relationships, languages spoken, etc) and if you can't work out based on this what 'develop policies' might mean perhaps it's because you lack the knowledge to be able to actually evaluate why they still have a census.

 

[Aštra’el]

For several years now I’ve really liked Sky News Australia.

 

[Rival]

For several years now I’ve really liked Sky News Australia.

I like SNA too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

For several years now I’ve really liked Sky News Australia.

I like SNA too.

Me, three.

 

[Deeje]

That doesn't seem down to understandability, just culture. My nana and dad put CofE and they know exactly what the question means, but neither are Christians. It's a cultural marker for them and that's it. But they know the question is asking about one's actual religion, they just don't take the census seriously enough to bother putting anything else and seems to me like deliberate sabotage of the results.

I see it as a bit generational as well.....I wouldn’t call it deliberate sabotage though. When I was filling out our census last night online, and it came to religion, my mum said she was C of E even thought he hasn’t set foot in a church for about 75 years (she is a “with it” 97 year old) When I mentioned that she really wasn’t C of E (hasn’t even been called that for decades now) because she hasn’t practiced any religion for most of her life, she still insisted that I put her down as “Anglican”. I really can’t explain why she did that?

 

[HonestJoe]

No, the Government already has this information. Everything is recorded and collated by the respective government departments, including all the data held by local councils. How do you think the ONS produces its regular reports?

All data sources are limited or imperfect in some way. A key benefit of the census is that it includes everyone where pretty much anything else is going to be a subset of data that needs extrapolating to wider populations. Indeed, one key use of census data is to help extrapolate and weight other datasets. In simple terms, there is no such thing as too much data.

 

[Sand Dancer]

That doesn't seem down to understandability, just culture. My nana and dad put CofE and they know exactly what the question means, but neither are Christians. It's a cultural marker for them and that's it. But they know the question is asking about one's actual religion, they just don't take the census seriously enough to bother putting anything else and seems to me like deliberate sabotage of the results.

That's pretty common in Europe. Christianity is cultural but not personal.

 

[Sand Dancer]

How on earth is 'What is your religion' a hard question? It's the most straightforward way of asking that question. Going to a church doesn't make one a Christian either. This isn't about one's cultural habits or norms. It's about one's beliefs.

In most first world nations, it is cultural, not about belief. A Christian is just a decent person, it's not a belief thing. The born again/evangelical thing is mostly an American anomaly. It used to be should still be about action, not belief. Jesus wanted followers, not worshipers.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Is there a way to renounce membership in the CoE? In my country as a lapsed Catholic, I filled out a form and have no longer been counted among the faithful since, both in the literal and figurative sense.

No there is not.
However the each church does have a register of all members who can vote on parish matters.
But this does not include all the people who attend that church. As they must ask to be put on the register and many people do not.
Churches are also required to record the numbers of all communicants at all services, but not names.