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The Left now says there's no such thing as a "woman"

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by Earthtank, Aug 3, 2021.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Since @Meandflower seems to have abandoned the conversation, I'll just add:

    Her point are all mostly right.

    Set aside the issue of trans and nb people for a moment. Even then, any of the statements she gave, are false if they're absolutistally (is that a word?) applied to all cis people, but they're true if they're softened a bit. For instance:

    - "Biological women have much more estrogen than biological men," if applied to all cis women and men, is incorrect.

    - "Most of the time, biological women have much more estrogen than biological men, but there are exceptions" is entirely correct for all cis women and men.

    ... but that second version, while accurate, doesn't support the prejudice she's peddling.
     
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  2. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    I have not abandonment the Conversations. You are just impatient
     
  3. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Good to hear. I was worried that you left to avoid losing face.

    I wait with bated breath to find out whether you've changed your mind or if you're going to double down and say that post-menopausal women really aren't women.
     
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  4. Friend of Mara

    Friend of Mara Active Member

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    This is a dumb video. Low IQ. Not poggers. Does not slap. Not a vibe.

    Let me first break down why the videos premise and arguments are dumb without even evoking that trans women are women.

    His first definition of woman is an adult female. What does female mean? Female means woman. What is a car? Its an automobile. What is an automobile? He is already using a circular definition. Secondly he claims that trans-woman must be a different entity than woman. So black cats must be different than cats? Black cats are not cats? Does he not know how adjectives work?

    I could go on but lets move forward to the trans-women are women bit.

    Women, since he would like a definition, is a complex social identity within a generally binary gendered society. Simple enough. Since he didn't even get into it lets also state that gender as a social status is different than biological sex. Are they linked? Very much so. Are they the same thing absolutely not. So if a person is holding an identity matching the societal identity of a gender it would be useful if the language employed denoted that. Ergo trans-women are women. Trans-men are men. Though people don't seem to be that hung up on this part for some reason.
     
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  5. Friend of Mara

    Friend of Mara Active Member

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    While an offshoot of this argument are you aware that there are plenty of XX men and albeit fewer XY women. No trans-ness involved. The X gene actually codes for everything that makes a man a man without need of the Y chromosome. The only difference is they would be infertile. Otherwise in SRY positive XX men they have a penis and testicles. In androgen insensitive women with XY chromosomes the person in question will have just as much testosterone as any other person with XY genes but don't develop any male traits what so ever. They even have a regular cycle.

    The complexity of the human genome and sex expression is actually also on a gradient rather than distinctly binary. Males can develop breast tissue and even lactate naturally under certain circumstances.

    Then on top of that there are slight differences in brain structures between men and women and as it so happens in many trans individuals who identify as a gender different than their assigned sex at birth are usually indicative of their gendered identity. Isn't that a curiosity?

    Beyond even that what are "male" or "female" characteristics? Most if not all are shared to some degree between both sexes and can be altered with external hormone therapy. Depending on the development stage of an individual they can be altered to a degree they are indistinguishable from what one might call a naturally occurring specimen.

    The standard biological model sides with trans individuals far more often than not. This also isn't because of some crazy leftist push to conquer academia but independent of it. Food for thought.
     
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  6. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Yes i have abandoned the conversation. Because it is biological differences between a biological man and a biological woman. Thats is a scientific fact.
     
    #346 Meandflower, Oct 19, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  7. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Thanks for clarifying, since your continued participation might have fooled me.


    You say this despite not being able to say what these biological differences are.
     
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  8. Meandflower

    Meandflower Well-Known Member

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    Biological women have vegina
    Biological men have penis

    Biological women get menses, and can get pregnant and giving birth

    Biological men do not get menses, and they can not get pregnant


    Difference in Biological men and Biological women about ferility
    Men are continuously fertile from puberty to almost up to 100 years of age even though by that time they are physically unable to engage in sexual activities. Their sperms are still viable but poor in quality. Men are fertile this long because there is a continuous production of sperms through the process called spermatogenesis. The process begins with germ cells which are essentially immortal. The cells are haploid since they have only half the number of chromosomes, 23 in this case. In the male all of these cells are not used at once during the reproductive process, only some will become a mature germ cell to compete in the arduous task of uniting with a female germ cell, an ovum.
    Women are fertile for roughly 12 hours each month from menarche up until they are in their fifties when menopause begins for most women. Fertility for them are limited because they have a set number of eggs. During fetal development there are initially 3 million to 4 million follicles or eggs present but through the process of apoptosis (cell death) that number drops to about 1 million eggs by the time of birth. This cell depletion will continue throughout the female's life. By menarche there are only 500,000 eggs available to continue this monthly cycle for the next five decades until menopause. After about 50 years a women releases about 7,000 eggs and only 1 in 12 is available for fertilization while the remaining approximately 492,000 eggs that are never released for fertilization go to waste.

    Biological women have much more estrogen than biological men

    Biological men has much more testosteron than women. And because of that men has different looks than biological women and men is much stronger than biological women


    The obvious physical differences between the sexes are influenced by the quantity of androgens and estrogens, two chemicals from the steroid family of chemicals, released into our bloodstream. The biggest differences occur during the development of our secondary sex characteristics beginning at puberty. We know what they are and I will not go into any details about them here.

    All the sex hormones in men and women originate from acetate and cholesterol molecules present in their bloodstream. The estrogens present in both sexes, more so in women than in men, are produced from the chemical breakdown of testosterone which is also present in the blood of both sexes. In case you didn't know testosterone is produced in both the testis and ovaries because the testis in the human male were once ovaries during fetal development until a chemical in the male body triggers the sequence to cause them to descend to the lower level into the scrotum to become the testis.
    Estrogen plays a critical role in our growth rate during puberty. It controls the growth of the cartilage and bone tissues. The rapid growth spurt generally occurs in girls earlier than in boys when they reach puberty due to the higher level of estrogen in the female body. This is why girls are taller than boys in the first year or so as teens. Boys catch up later in height.

    Estrogen also has a strong influence on the cardiovascular system. Estrogen decreases the incident of heart attacks, kidney diseases and other cardiovascular ailments in women since they have more of it than men. However, that benefit in women disappear once they reach menopause since estrogen level drop and their testosterone level go up. Decrease in estrogen level in both sexes causes an increase in the incident of osteoporosis or bone loss since estrogen controls the rate of bone loss and resorption of calcium to produce bone tissue. When estrogen level drops the rate of bone loss is greater than the rate of bone resorption and the problem is worst in women since their bones are generally less dense than men.e testis make about 7 mg of testosterone a day and 1.75 mg of it is converted to small amounts of estradiol present in the blood of men while the ovaries in women only makes about 0.3 mg of testosterone and a little more than 0.15 mg of that is converted to estradiol. As we can see here it is the ratio of testosterone to estradiol and the potency of the two hormones that make the big differences between the sexes. Estrogens are 1000 times more potent than testosterone. The ratio of the amount of testosterone to estradiol found in men is 3 to 1 while the ratio of these two hormones in women is 1 to 1. Also, men make about 20 times more testosterone than women but the amount of testosterone converted to estrogens in women is 200 times more than men. It doesn't take much of either of these hormones to change the physical appearance of each sex to its opposite appearance.

    Different chromosome between biological women and biological men:
    chromosome pair 23, XX for female and XY for male, the differences between the sexes are apparent. The "Y chromosome" is much shorter than it's corresponding "X chromosome". Despite its size the "Y chromosome carries two of the most important genes for a male. One of these genes is called SRY that determine the maleness of the human species

    The other genetic difference between the sexes are the inheritance of the mitochondrial DNA in the female. Mitochondria are present in all the cells of both sexes but are passed from one generation to the next exclusively through the mother. The genes they carry are replicated and do not go through any recombination as the rest of genes do during fertilization. Maternity testing is based on this knowledge of the mitochondrial DNA properties. Paternity testing is generally performed using the nuclear DNA present in all non-reproductive or somatic cells
    Source: Biological Differences Between Men and Women.
     
    #348 Meandflower, Oct 19, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2021
  9. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    I think the argument of @9-10ths_Penguin was that your answer about the difference between men and women, while true, aren't all encompassing in all details nor applicable to every single human being of either gender. They are wide generalities that are true for the overwhelming generality of individuals and the way we define men and women. But thinking that these definitions are absolute would be an error. Like all definitions, there is a certain ''softness'' to them if only due to the demarcation problem in science and philosophy (where producing perfect, all encompassing definition is basically impossible if only due to the limits of language). For example, an infertile women who doesn't have menses nor a uterus (either due to surgery or malformation) would still be considered a women. A ''handicaped'' women is still a women.
     
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  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    So you've changed your mind on this? You've argued pretty strongly against this.

    So post-menopausal women are "biological men"? Why do you think this?


    So an infertile man is not a "biological man"? An infertile woman is not a "biological woman"? Why do you think this?

    So women with low estrogen are "biological men" and men with low testosterone are "biological women"? Why do you think this?

    So cis women with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome are "biological men" (since they have a Y chromosome) while also being "biological women" (since they have vaginas)?

    ... and apparently people with chromosome combinations other than XX and XY are neither "biological men" nor "biological women."

    Do you actually believe the position that you're arguing?

    Remember: your criteria for what constitutes a "biological man" or a "biological woman" have to work in every single case. If they only apply most of the time, then you've left room for trans people.
     
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  11. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Loony tunes.

    That's all folks.
     
  12. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

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    Ohhh...

    Those sexy love doll's from Japan.
     
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