The LDS "Articles of Faith"

[Katzpur]

(Mod Edit: this is a same faith debate for all Christians.)

Bible Truth,

At your request, I am starting yet another thread. You have suggested that this time you intend to prove ten of our thirteen Articles of Faith to be false, and that you will do so using the Bible alone as evidence. Here are the "Articles of Faith." You might wish to begin by telling us which three we got right. Then we can start with the first one you find to contradict the Bible and move down the line until you choose to end the discussion, as you have done on the last four threads you have asked us to start.

"The Articles of Faith" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3. We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9. We believe all that God has revealed, all the He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11. We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

[Aqualung]

Make sure you address them one at a time, provide your opinions about what is wrong, and then provide Biblical passages that support this.

 

[bible truth]

Hey Katzpur,

Thank you for rescuing me. I was drowning with all of the other Threads debating the same topic of Mormonism. This is the only LDS Thread I will participate in. I think I can agree on only points 12 and 13. I originally thought I could agree on point 7. However, I believe point 7 is used for on-going extra-biblical revelation that is vital for your faith. Point 1 might be too big to start with. I know all LDS members know that biblical Christians believe in the doctrine of the trinity. We worship Jesus as co-equal with God the Father because we believe Jesus to be God the Son. We worship Holy Spirit as God. Therefore, let’s get back to point 1 later in the Thread.

Let’s start with point 2. I will only use Scripture. Point 2 is addressing the fall of mankind and what was lost. - BT

Genesis 3 The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "
4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[Katzpur]

Hey Katzpur,

Thank you for rescuing me. I was drowning with all of the other Threads debating the same topic of Mormonism. This is the only LDS Thread I will participate in. I think I can agree on only points 12 and 13. I originally thought I could agree on point 7. However, I believe point 7 is used for on-going extra-biblical revelation that is vital for your faith. Point 1 might be too big to start with. I know all LDS members know that biblical Christians believe in the doctrine of the trinity. We worship Jesus as co-equal with God the Father because we believe Jesus to be God the Son. We worship Holy Spirit as God. Therefore, let’s get back to point 1 later in the Thread.

Let’s start with point 2. I will only use Scripture. Point 2 is addressing the fall of mankind and what was lost. - BT

No. Let's start with point 1 as it is the most fundamental of all of our beliefs. Why don't you begin by getting out your Bible and showing us how our belief in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is false.

 

[bible truth]

"The Articles of Faith" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

Romans 5
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ...

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. [/quote]

The fall of mankind is an extremely big topic that will affect everything else that you will believe. We are trying to discuss our relationship to the first Adam. Your understanding of your relationship of the first Adam will be carried over to your understanding of your relationship with the 2nd Adam (Jesus Christ). Let's start by asking: why do all men die (including infants)? Please try to answer in context to Romans 5 and Summary of Belief 2. - BT

BTW - The bold and underlines are carry over emphasis from a paste and cut with a previous Thread. The emphasis is to highlight our vital union with the first and second Adam.

 

[Katzpur]

Please address the first Article of Faith before we go on. I want to know where the Bible disproves this doctrine. Thank you.

 

[Bishka]

Bible Truth, in order to make this easier for all of us. Provide a short paragraph with your feelings and evidence from the Bible to back-it up. Please do not copy and paste as that is plagarism and it is a cop-out. The font colors are a bit much too. Just try one color. If you seriously would like to debate this, I would take those suggestions into consideration.

 

[Aqualung]

And, refrain from just posting srciputre. As you have stated, our interpretations differ. As we have stated, we believe in the Bible. Therefore, it would be silly to think that just posting scripture will automatically lead to some eye-opening experience. We agree with what you have posted. We apparantly don't believe in your interpretation. So, in order for this to move forward, you will have to supply your interpretation as well.

 

[nutshell]

BT -

Posting only scripture doesn't help us reach an understanding. We completely agree with the scriptures you've posted, but you need to explain why you think that scripture contradicts point 2.

I'm waiting.

 

[Comprehend]

I would like to know if Bible Truth believes in talking snakes...

and I would like to know how Adam and Eve could hear the sound of God walking through the Garden if God does not have a body?

and I would like to know what bible he is using.


EDIT: while I am at it, I would like to know what he is having for dinner and what his social security number is.

 

[nutshell]

Since BT is offline, I will attempt to stand in his place and debate this with you.

Aruging point 2:

1. Rom. 5: 14
   14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s atransgression, who is the bfigure of him that was to come.
   

 

[Katzpur]

Bible Truth,

I realize it may appear as if we are all ganging up on you. Hopefully, your fellow Evangelical Christians will show up soon to provide you with some back-up. It's always hard to address the posts of three or four different people without some help from others who believe as you do.

Seriously, though, if you really want to engage in this debate, it's not going to do you much good to simply post verse after verse of scripture. Since we also believe the Bible to be God's word, we could do exactly the same thing. Why don't you take the time to explain how you believe these scriptures prove our doctrines to be false? That's what we're looking for.

And again, please start with the first Article of Faith since you believe it to be inconsistent with what the Bible teaches. Yes, a correct understanding of the Fall is critical to our faith, but there is nothing more important than our belief in God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

(I hope the other Latter-day Saints who are participating will support me in this request and not allow this debate to progress to the second Article of Faith until we have finished discussing the first one.)

 

[nutshell]

Personally, I don't care which one he starts with. I just want some reasoning/substance behind random scripture quoting.

 

[Comprehend]

Honestly, I don't see how he is going to argue with the 1st article of faith. It simply says we believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost... Is BT going to say that one of them does not exist?

What he really wants to argue about is *what* we believe about them, not *whether* they exist.

 

[Katzpur]

What he really wants to argue about is *what* we believe about them, not *whether* they exist.

I know, but since the first Article of Faith does not elaborate on the details of what we believe about them, I want to know what it is about it that he objects to. He said he wants to debate the truth of the Articles of Faith using the Bible only. If our first Article of Faith contradicts something in the Bible, he should be able to show us what it is.

 

[nutshell]

39 (But this spake he of the aSpirit, which they that believe on him should receive: bfor the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 ¶ Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the aProphet.

41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

 

[bible truth]

"The Articles of Faith" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

The fall of mankind is an extremely big topic that will affect everything else that you will believe. We are trying to discuss our relationship to the first Adam. Your understanding of your relationship of the first Adam will be carried over to your understanding of your relationship with the 2nd Adam (Jesus Christ). Let's start by asking: why do all men die (including infants)? Please try to answer in context to Romans 5 and Summary of Belief 2. - BT
.

Could you guys please try to answer my questions from my previous post. It seems you guys are putting so many demands on me without even trying to answer an honest question. All have sinned in Adam according to Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15 (posted earlier). The Article of Faith appears to say otherwise. Here are two additional Bible verses that show that we all sinned in Adam. - BT

Psalm 58:3:
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Psalm 51:5: (David)
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 

[nutshell]

Could you guys please try to answer my questions from my previous post. It seems you guys are putting so many demands on me without even trying to answer an honest question. All have sinned in Adam according to Romans 5 and 1 Cor 15 (posted earlier). The Article of Faith appears to say otherwise. Here are two additional Bible verses that show that we all sinned in Adam. - BT

Psalm 58:3:
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Psalm 51:5: (David)
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

We believe that the fall of Adam resulted in sin and death. We can only overcome these two things through Christ. However, at judgment, we will be punished for our own sins and not punished for Adam eating the forbidden fruit.

 

[Katzpur]

Could you guys please try to answer my questions from my previous post. It seems you guys are putting so many demands on me without even trying to answer an honest question.

I'll respond to this question after you respond to mine.

 

[Bishka]

Could you guys please try to answer my questions from my previous post. It seems you guys are putting so many demands on me without even trying to answer an honest question.

We could say the same to you, but if you enter a debate or a discussion and there are ground rules laid down, you would be well to follow, lest you end up looking foolish.