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Featured The Law and the New Covenant

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by iam1me, Aug 26, 2018.

  1. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Nah, that'd be pretty gaudy :p

    I draw on my skin all the time, but I'd be pretty reluctant to get something permanent. It'd have to be a pretty kick *** tattoo for me to consider it - like one of those full body dragon tattoos.
     
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  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Huh? You pay taxes to support your local, county (state) and national governments....... no different.

    Charity is not mentioned in the OT laws....... you are required to pay your taxes, I think that tithe is 10% of income isn't it? .......... there was temple tax 1/2 shekel or about 9grams of puree silver per annum as I remember, and you are required to support the poor in various ways as well as loans.

    Well that hasn't worked too well in most Christian communities.

    No...... Exodus {20:13} Thou shalt not kill.
    So many Christians have needed to adjust the above to justify various justifications for killing. Wrong.

    Tell that to the women of Iceland........... If Christians are so determined to save all pregnancies why do they lose interest immediately after the births and moan/refuse about paying up for all children to be educated, medicared, benefited until adulthood? And disabled births should be educated, medicared, benefited for whole life. Rape births should be totally funded with tax dollars until adulthood. Many Christians show much hypocrisy over all this.

    No..... the women of Iceland save their country many millions each year on care for disabled which can be spent on all children as required.
     
  3. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The 'man of lawlessness' is the antichrist.
    It depends what sense you mean
    Christ is 'the end' of the law in the sense the purpose of the law is bringing people to Jesus. The law shows need for a savior.
    and we do not pull ourselves up by our bootstraps to heaven.
    Christians follow the spirit of the law not the letter. The letter may be symbolic or meant for national Israel

    Moses rules!!! but Moses rupel point to Jesus!
     
  4. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Fundamentally, no. In principle it's a good thing. That said, the church is not the government - nor was there ever intended to be a "Christian State." So while it is fine to ask for donations for their work, the church is not the same as the State of Israel or your modern government. More to the point, however, is the Law in question. The letter of the Law prescribes not taxes for your local government or to the church - but specifically tithe given to the tribe of Levi. So while it is good to keep with the Spirit of the Law - paying your taxes and giving to the church or other charities - the specifics of giving to Levis is not so applicable. So it is good and necessary to understand what and why the letter of the Law says what it does so that we may appropriately adapt it to our lives thousands of years after these things were originally written.

    Tithe was one such means of supporting those in need.

    Deutoronomy 14:28-29 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.​

    Here's another example:

    Leviticus 23:22“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the Lord your God.’”​

    So welfare was definitely established by the Law. Charity was also very much supported in the OT - but yes, it wasn't prescribed per say. Else it wouldn't be charity.

    How so? Do you perhaps mean that they haven't done it?

    I'm afraid you are simply incorrect - that verse, properly translated, reads murder. Saying that any and all killing is morally wrong would be silly and inconsistent with the rest of the Law. In Justice, war, self-defense, etc. there are plenty of times when killing is perfectly acceptable (though never ideal).

    Murdering the undesirable to better support the desirable.. you are not far from the Nazi way of thinking.

    At any rate, I am personally a socialist - I fundamentally disagree with a great deal with right-wing conservatives. I'm all for paying for education, health care, etc.
     
  5. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    The Law of Moses comprised of civil, ritual, and moral laws. Only the Civic and ritual laws have been abolished, the moral laws still apply to us as Jesus made mention on the Sermon on the Mount.

    'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. ' Romans 10:4

    David Guzik writes: "Jesus is the end of the law for those who believe. The law ends for the believer in the sense that our obedience to the law is no longer the basis for our relationship with God. The law has notcome to an end in the sense of no longer reflecting God’s standard or no longer showing us our need for a Savior."
     
  6. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Romans 10:4 (NASB): Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.​

    This is a better translation that is more consistent with what the rest of the scriptures say. We must not forget what Jesus himself said on the matter:


    Matthew 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​
     
  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Ah ha! And so no part of the OT laws is fixed any more!
    This allows for modern times and modern problems.
    And so, in a World overcrowded with people, contraception and (very very early abortion) can be just one of the many adjustments, or so most Western Nations believe, even countries such as Irish Republic.


    Levites were not allowed land or inheritance, for obvious reasons, and today our political leaders, police and other services cannot earn their livings through trades or merchandising, ergo...... taxes. Logical.

    That doesn't happen today and it should. Retail should not be allowed to smash up discarded stocks before disposal, Business errors should be included in the above provisions for poor etc.

    Welfare is about provision by law.

    If folks wish to support charities then that's fine, but quite different.

    Yes.

    Justice? No.
    War? Only in defence.
    Defence? ok.

    No. The Nazis took disabled kids away under deceptions of treatment etc and they 'died accidentally'.

    So many Western Nations support very early abortion now because the World is full....... thousands of children die every day through need, war, drought, famine etc...... that countries like Iceland should not be interfered with.

    Excellent..... I agree with you.
    The distribution of wealth is a tragic shame, and nobody needs to own billions of dollars or pounds. I hope that our votes can make a difference in the future.
    :)
     
  8. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    Jesus fulfilled the law for us so that we may no longer be condemned by them. Our salvation doesn't rely on keeping the laws of Moses, but obviously that doesn't give us permit to fulfill whatever hedonistic desire we may have. The law still serves as a moral compass of what God's holy standards are.

    'For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." ' Galatians 2:18-21

    'For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: " do not say in your heart , ' who will ascend into heaven ?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or ' who will descend into the abyss ?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? " the word is near you , in your mouth and in your heart "-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, " whoever believes in him will not be disappointed ." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for " whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved ." ' Romans 10:5-13

    'When He said, "A new covenant, " He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. ' Hebrews 8:13
     
    #28 Thinking Homer, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    In the OT Jews were bound by the "Law of Moses." This Law (also called a Covenant) was firstly composed of the Commandments, such as the prohibition on murder, stealing and adultery. Secondly, there were the Ordinances, such as the Tabernacle, the Holy Days, the Levitical Offerings, and role of the priesthood. And thirdly, there were the Judgements, covering legal issues such as slavery; taxation, divorce and inheritance (with secondary issues such as diet, sanitation, military service and even agricultural practices.) The books of Exodus; Deuteronomy and Leviticus cover these.

    The commandments are the ethical laws, the ordinances and judgements are symbolic laws. Ethics were now laws of the heart and Jesus raised the standard. “You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment!"

    Jesus lived and died under the Law; He recognized the authority of the Law; kept the Law; and taught the Law. But Jesus was the end of the Law,
     
  10. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    I feel I am being talked down to. I am familiar with the quoted prophet, but I do not share your ascendant certainty, nor do I accept you as my teacher. Lets discuss this with civility and without arm twisting.

    Circumcision of the heart is probably quite rare. Nevertheless we should extend fellowship I think to all comers. This is a ragged conglomeration not a nation of acolytes. If somebody is fat, watches movies and loves cats too much we should not judge them.

    I think Paul has to explain this to his noobs, but its already familiar to someone who lives and studies torah. I think torah and its interpretation is considered to be dynamic and alive. If I read anything about Judaism one of the first lessons usually is to read between the lines. It bothers me when people (not you but preachers) talk about this like dynamic interpretation is some huge revelation Jews never knew about, because preaching like this has caused problems for me. I think in accusing Jews of ignorance the preachers have done harm to christians. Sure they do not see the veil as torn. Ok, well we have a ways to go towards proving that it is.

    That is an assumption on your part I guess. You seem really certain, like if I disagree I must be wrong to disagree. I consider it to be a boast. No one can tame the tongue which James says is a restless evil filled with deadly poison. What is one to do? Talking about things online is difficult. I cant show anyone wisdom here.

    Properly understood by God or according to we humans? I am not a father in the faith, and I think neither can one be on the internet. Abraham could be a story, and as a non Jewish person I can say that, though as a christian not. Jews aren't supposed to, because each one is required to be an escaped slave from Egypt, even if they were born in New York. They equally believe they are descended from Abraham. The covenant of circumcision is Jewish 100% no matter how we may try to squeak it around them and say it was Abrahams first. Either we are Jewish and believe in Abraham, or Abraham is a story told by Jews along with Exodus and the whole enchilada. There is no introduction in Genesis, no preface but the Torah. What am I supposed to think that Jews are just extras on the stage and I the cast? No, to me that is impossible due to two thousand years of testimony.

    Here is what I think: If we are grafted onto Israel then it behooves us to believe in Abraham, but only in an abstract sense can one shrive circumcision away from Moses, only in the bubble universe of Moses does Abraham have it first I think. Its Jewish. Galations makes the argument that its a covenant we can keep without being Jewish, but let me not kid myself that Abraham really comes before Moses. He comes with Moses and an Exodus from Egypt. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
     
  11. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    The Law is NOT irrelvant to Christians and has NOT been abolished for the Israelites, but has NOTHING to do with Christian salvation:

    1) Romans 7 Christians including Jewish Christians died to the Law to be wed to the risen Christ

    2) The Law wasn't given to Gentiles, ever, before or now

    3) The Law is a minimum standard for believers--the Law says don't commit adultery, Christians are to be chaste emotionally and physically, the Law says not to murder, Christians are to not even cultivate hate or lack of forgiveness within

    Keeping the Law to attempt to be saved or to retain salvation is the precise meaning of the term "legalism".
     
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  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Veteran Member
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    On the contrary, it means exactly that ─ unless you think words attributed to Paul overrule words attributed to Jesus. Male circumcision is the sign of Yahweh's covenant with [his] chosen people, and everything Jewish I find on the net tells me male circumcision is correctly called part of the Law ─ no dot, staple or coffee stain of which is to be altered, as Jesus, a circumcised Jew himself, says in your quote.
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    In replying to the Thread, many Christians are taught about Matthew 5:17--"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil"
    That Christ Jesus is speaking about the 10 Commandment law.
    Unto which he is not.

    But there is a law that Christ Jesus is speaking about.

    Let's start with Matthew 5:1-19. Now notice in verse 19--"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments"

    What least commandments ?
    the ones Christ Jesus just given back in
    Verse's 3-16, These being the law of the kingdom of heaven.

    Therefore Verse 17, Has noting to do with the 10 Commandment law.
    But has everything to do with the law of the kingdom of heaven.

    Now let's find out something, that is amazing.

    Notice in Matthew 5:1- 2---"And seeing the multitudes, he ( Jesus ) went up into a mountain, and when he was set, his disciples came unto him, And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying"

    Notice Jesus went up into a mountain.

    Notice that Moses also went up into a mountain.

    Where as Jesus went up into a mountain and gave to the people the law of the kingdom of heaven.

    Where as Moses also went up into a mountain and gave to the people the
    10 Commandment law.

    Therefore Matthew 5:1-19, has nothing at all to do with the 10 Commandment law.

    But everything to do with Jesus giving the law of the kingdom of heaven.
     
    #33 Faithofchristian, Aug 27, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2018
  14. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    what is old is new again for some.

    so the Law didn't change but ignorance of the Law becomes understanding to the spiritual/mental conception.
     
  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    first of all, That of Matthew 5:1-19, has nothing at all to do with the
    10 Commandment law.

    What Christ Jesus is giving, is the law of the kingdom of heaven.

    If you notice in Verse 19, Jesus saying,
    ( Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments

    What least commandments, The ones Jesus just given in Verse's 3-16. Those least commandments.

    Verse's 3-16, being the law of the kingdom of heaven.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You raise an excellent point. Jesus took the letter of the law and promoted the principle behind it. As he said about the 'law of love' (loving God with all our being and loving our neighbor as ourselves') the whole laws was founded on those two things. The letter of the law might have been abolished, but not the principles upon which it was built.
     
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  17. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    This is only to tell the Jews that the New Covenant no longer contains a set of written Law such as the Mosaic Law.

    The term "obsolete" by no means says that the Mosaic covenant and Law will go away. It is spoken from the perspective that the old Jewish covenant no long has the ability to save. It echoes the saying that the Law and Prophets were proclaimed until John the Baptist. After that point, only the Good News shall be preached as only the New Covenant will possess the power of salvation.

    On the other hand, the Mosaic covenant itself won't go away from a legal/lawful perspective. The New Covenant is somehow an "added upon" covenant which doesn't go with you when you are born. You need to choose it when you are an adult. Before that you are subject to an older covenant and will be judged by that old covenant if the New Covenant is not chosen. That is if the New Covenant is not chosen then the Jews will be judged in accordance to the Mosaic covenant while gentles will be judged by an even older covenant (possibly the one brought by Noah).
     
    #37 Hawkins, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  18. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Jesus didn't introduce a new law here - he is very clearly speaking of the Jewish Law. He is saying he will fulfill it and the prophets (or do you posit that he introduced new prophets here too?)
     
  19. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    There is a big difference between studying the Law and learning to apply its principles to modern problems vs. Relativism. There is never any time when murder is permitted - no matter how convenient it maybe. Also, the world is NOT overcrowded. We haven't come close to reaching the point where we are running out of resources to support the population. The real problem is greed - that root of many evils. We have more food than we know what to do with! So why do people starve? Because we'd rather let it rot and be destroyed than to give it to those in need. We'd rather force people on the streets and ostrasize them than provide them shelter and financial assistance. If they setup their own place, like tent cities - those get taken down and the people shuffled around with no place to rest their heads. Hard workers get sick or injured, and suddenly all of their life savings get used up and they go into massive debt - because this country doesn't believe in Universal Health Care. etc.

    Early on they may have deceived people - but there was also plenty of open propaganda on the topic. Even if it wasn't immediately obvious, it didn't take long for people to figure out what was going on.



    At any rate, those in support of abortion are merely the latest in the long line of people who decided that they could kill or otherwise bring harm upon others - arguing that they weren't people, or - at least - inferior people whose well-being is not worthy of consideration.

    Again - we have an abundance of resources. The problem isn't that the world is too full - the problem is that people are too greedy.

    Hindsight is 2020 :D
     
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  20. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    Jesus died for all of mankind, that all might be saved. However, the scriptures also prophecy a Judgement for sin, which Christ is in charge of, and of the Second Death. So by what means are those who are saved differentiated from those that are condemned? It is their works.


    Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”



    No one is asserting that it is the Law which brings salvation. It is through Christ that salvation is made possible - and this is a gift. However, the gift is only part of the equation (else there would be no judgement). Eternal Life is the reward for our own good works (Romans 2:6-11)

    Please read the surrounding verses to understand what the New Covenant is (hint: I quoted it in the OP).
     
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