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The Last Samurai: Humanism vs. Technology.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Your comments made me think about the movie, The Last Samurai. ------Like Avatar, The Matrix, and maybe I-Robot, the The Last Samurai transcends the genre of movie narration. It gives us quite a lot for the price of a ticket and a bucket of popcorn.

The movie juxtaposes the supposed good guys, the Samurai, with the story's bad guys, the drunk whore-chasing Westerners. Many of the noble qualities you note concerning animists are echoed in the movie's portrayal of the Samurai. The movie collocates the Samurai with the mindless Western soldiers flawlessly.

Which segues almost perfectly with my statement and your response. My statement concerned whether or not a truth could be ignored in a manner that benefited the ignorer without causing countervailing forces that must be inevitably or eventually dealt with by the ignoring party or else by someone on the other side of the wall protecting him from unseemly truths?

The axis around which the philosophical aspect of the story of The Last Samurai revolves is the irony that the sublime soldiers, full of honor, humility, and general goodness all around, i.e., the Samurai, are pitted against monsters, low-life's, who, by some unnamed evil, are given technological tools that completely transcend the skill and honor associated with the quintessential soldier that is the Samurai.

A Western cavalry officer can sit on his perch guzzling Old Overholt whiskey and puffing on his hand rolled tobacco while mowing down the glory of the world with his Gatlin gun and his Winchester rifle. . . We see the same juxtaposition of aboriginal goodness and tree-hugging simplicity in the movie Avatar where once again it's the bad guys, the products of Western Civilized technology, who are portrayed as destroyers of truth and good.

The Last Samurai's virtue in relationship to Avatar is that it doesn't produces a happy ending as difficult to swallow as a roach in the bottom of the bucket of popcorn. Avatar makes the good guys win through Hollywood theatrics, so to say, while The Last Samurai lets the truth of its philosophical portrayal sink into the very bone marrow of the audience.

And what's the philosophical truth portrayed in The Last Samurai?

That in this godforsaken world, science is the prism, the crucible, the criteria, where truth transcends ideology, religion, politics, humanistic nicety, and delivers up the weapons through which truth will, eventually, deliver up the fallen world to the kingdom of heaven where there will be no more tears, no more pain, death, or want, for the old order of things will have passed away in the bright light of a world freed from the shackles of half-truths and mere manifestations of good, humility, honor, and brotherhood, which are, in their outer manifestations, only fragile, fleshly, chimera, doppelgangers, predisposed, and possessed, in the dark place of their genesis, where they never go, to destroy the truths science and scientific technology, as guardians of God, defend to the death.

The philosophical truth delivered up in The Last Samurai is as hard to swallow as a dead fly in our Coca Cola: that heaven will be peopled by Old Overholt swigging whore-chasers while hell's citizens will be Samurai, humanists, all manner of liberal-minded religious do-gooders, who, while they lived in this godforsaken realm, stated at least one Gospel-like truth that even God can't tinker with: they'd rather live in hell than in a heaven where God's mercy overlooks the flaws and untruths they dealt with through self-ingratiating graft rather than God's grace.

The Old Overholt spirited diatribe above hides the theology it blurs. Nevertheless, I propose there's sound, orthodox, theology, gallivanting just under the surface as a holdover from the Old Overholt blurred prose.




John
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
It's just a movie.

Any philosophical consideration given to it ought to keep in mind it is mostly fictional events.

It's portrayal of good guys and bad guys are purely for entertainment, not a reflection of the real world.
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
On the quest to conquer death and inch closer to the Kingdom of Heaven, the individual, or the nation-state, will encounter failure. Failure serves as a reality check. We can be truthful about our failure and cease resisting the humiliation or we can perpetually resist.

In the movie, the Japanese government accepted its failure and opened dialogue to the world. The Samurai did not and further isolated themselves. Reality checks can be harsh.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It's just a movie.

. . . Like the line in the Indigo Girls, Closer to Fine: "It's only life after all . . . yeah . . ."

Any philosophical consideration given to it ought to keep in mind it is mostly fictional events. . . It's portrayal of good guys and bad guys are purely for entertainment, not a reflection of the real world.

In my opinion it's actually quite historical, quite accurate, and quite profound. There's a wonderful scene where the emperor is torn between tradition vs. technology. It's worth the price of admission. He's clearly asking himself what it means that a white-trash culture like nineteenth century America wields the technology and the means to rule the world, enfeeble and enslave the pristine cultures who have been cultivating the highest in humanism for millennia?



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
In the movie, the Japanese government accepted its failure and opened dialogue to the world. The Samurai did not and further isolated themselves. Reality checks can be harsh.

. . . That's one of the great plots in the movie. The emperor is pragmatic in one sense, and a true believer in the tradition of the Samurai in another. How can he bridge the gap? Does he support the Samurai and tradition, or does he compromise with the West?

What this thread is interested in, and I suspect the emperor was too, is by what kind of distortion of a naturalistic ideology concerning reality does a young, brash, white trash culture, nineteenth century America, possess the means to enslave and conquer mother nature's greatest cultural products; products that took millennia to evolve and perfect only to be shamed by whisky guzzlin whore chasing Johnny-come-latelys?

The Samurai were the highest product of the incarnation of Shintoism and temporal fighting technique. The incarnation of Shintoistic beliefs with sublime fighting technique made the Samurai quite possibly the greatest warriors nature ever produced. Which only magnifies the irony of how cockroach-kickers and whiskey lickers, hell, hell's rejects, could kick *** on the divine Samurai?

The whole movie is captured in a nutshell when Katsumoto watches a drunken inebriated cavalryman (Tom Cruise) throw a beatin on his (Katsumoto's) finest warriors. Katsumoto realizes he's watching something that represents a wholesale revision in his theological vision of the world. There's a parallel scene in Avatar when Neytiri (who has less respect for Jake Sully than Katsumoto is likely to have for any US Cavalryman) sees the light descend on Jake Sully like a garment.

In both scenes, the messianic revealer of a new world order is brought into the temple of the orthodox community to share his secrets with the wise men of the order. And in both movies, as in the four Gospels, what the messianic revealer reveals bodes ill fortune for the hoary orthodoxy. In two of the three cases, the messianic messenger who of his own freewill would save the orthodoxy community, instead portends, and summonses their defeat and humiliation. In Avatar, Hollywood (the abode of the original aboriginal revisionists) changes history's script to affect a happy, if banal and ahistorical ending (see, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood).



John
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
. . . Like the line in the Indigo Girls, Closer to Fine: "It's only life after all . . . yeah . . ."



In my opinion it's actually quite historical, quite accurate, and quite profound. There's a wonderful scene where the emperor is torn between tradition vs. technology. It's worth the price of admission. He's clearly asking himself what it means that a white-trash culture like nineteenth century America wields the technology and the means to rule the world, enfeeble and enslave the pristine cultures who have been cultivating the highest in humanism for millennia?



John

Ok as long as you're not basing an opinion on only what was portrayed in the movie.

From as early as 1879 and continuing through most of the first four decades of the 1900’s the influential Japanese statesmen, Prince Iyesato Tokugawa (1863-1940) and Baron Eiichi Shibusawa (1840-1931) led a major Japanese domestic and international movement advocating goodwill and mutual respect with the United States. Their friendship with the U.S. included allying with seven U.S. presidents, Grant, Theodore Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson, Harding, Hoover, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. It was only after the passing of these two fine Japanese diplomats and humanitarians that Japanese militants were able to pressure Japan into joining with the Axis Powers in WWII.
Japan–United States relations - Wikipedia
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
What this thread is interested in, and I suspect the emperor was too, is by what kind of distortion of a naturalistic ideology concerning reality does a young, brash, white trash culture, nineteenth century America, possess the means to enslave and conquer mother nature's greatest cultural products; products that took millennia to evolve and perfect only to be shamed by whisky guzzlin whore chasing Johnny-come-latelys?
There are many failure points that need to be accepted before meaningful revelation happens. If the Emperor is waiting for revelation first, in terms of rational understanding, then he will be left behind.

The whole movie is captured in a nutshell when Katsumoto watches a drunken inebriated cavalryman (Tom Cruise) throw a beatin on his (Katsumoto's) finest warriors. Katsumoto realizes he's watching something that represents a wholesale revision in his theological vision of the world.
Katsumoto then commits the sin of trying to patch new cloth on old garments. Instead, the sickle needs to come out and harvesting needs to begin at the first sign the wheat is starting to over-ripen. Anything true will never be lost.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
On the quest to conquer death and inch closer to the Kingdom of Heaven, the individual, or the nation-state, will encounter failure. Failure serves as a reality check. We can be truthful about our failure and cease resisting the humiliation or we can perpetually resist.

. . . Life, evolution, and mind, have prepared a Crimson-Parachute for the faithful. It's called the Rapture. But that's a whole other thread. <s>



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Ok as long as you're not basing an opinion on only what was portrayed in the movie.

From as early as 1879 and continuing through most of the first four decades of the 1900’s the influential Japanese statesmen, Prince Iyesato Tokugawa (1863-1940) and Baron Eiichi Shibusawa (1840-1931) led a major Japanese domestic and international movement advocating goodwill and mutual respect with the United States. Their friendship with the U.S. included allying with seven U.S. presidents, Grant, Theodore Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson, Harding, Hoover, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt. It was only after the passing of these two fine Japanese diplomats and humanitarians that Japanese militants were able to pressure Japan into joining with the Axis Powers in WWII.
Japan–United States relations - Wikipedia

Your quotation from Wikipedia couldn't be more timely to the discussion since, in my opinion, in truth, though peculiar and ironic, the Samurai are more symbiotically, and theologically bound to Nazism, than to what this thread is trying to bring out about American exceptionalism and its relationship to technology.

I've read a number of excellent historians claim that the Nazis were anti-technology. And for the same reason the Samurai were. Both know what technology represents. And if this thread hits its mark so will anyone reading this thread. . . Which is why I'm wearing Kevlar in a bomb-proof shelter with a crucifix around my neck as I type.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Katsumoto then commits the sin of trying to patch new cloth on old garments. Instead, the sickle needs to come out and harvesting needs to begin at the first sign the wheat is starting to over-ripen. Anything true will never be lost.

Amen. And though it's true that what's true will never be lost, still, without the true-believers, the prophets and sages, what will never be lost, will also never be found.



John
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
Amen. And though it's true that what's true will never be lost, still, without the true-believers, the prophets and sages, what will never be lost, will also never be found.



John
Yes, it’s important to preserve and strengthen the traditions that we undermine. It took time for me to fully appreciate the importance of that.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
The Samurai were the highest product of the incarnation of Shintoism and temporal fighting technique. The incarnation of Shintoistic beliefs with sublime fighting technique made the Samurai quite possibly the greatest warriors nature ever produced. Which only magnifies the irony of how cockroach-kickers and whiskey lickers, hell, hell's rejects, could kick *** on the divine Samurai?

I don't know anything about Shintosim or Samurais, but I get the gist of what your saying. I think the thing is, the cowboys never did win, because everyone is still thinking about the Old holy ways, peeling back the old memories in our dna. I think we all know deep down, that we can't just walk away from duty, to ourselves and the planet, and we can't just let ourselves get walked on by technology and powerful narcissist humans. As an animist, I play the long game, and sooner or later I think we will shrug off notions of anti-theism, if any of that is around. Technology we will serve us, not the other way around. Eventually, much of the planet should be made to return to a park-like state, where we can live naturally. And the scientists and engineers can have their separate plot, but they should serve our species, and take orders from the seer on the mountain. In coming to terms with the fates, we are molded into maturity. In sticking with wills, do we not wander ravenously?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I don't know anything about Shintosim or Samurais, but I get the gist of what your saying. I think the thing is, the cowboys never did win, because everyone is still thinking about the Old holy ways, peeling back the old memories in our dna. I think we all know deep down, that we can't just walk away from duty, to ourselves and the planet, and we can't just let ourselves get walked on by technology and powerful narcissist humans.

Shinto could probably be fairly termed oriental animism. And thus you (could legitimately be thought) a Western Shintoist. <g> Which makes you indispensable to this thread. <s>



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Technology we will serve us, not the other way around. Eventually, much of the planet should be made to return to a park-like state, where we can live naturally. And the scientists and engineers can have their separate plot, but they should serve our species, and take orders from the seer on the mountain. In coming to terms with the fates, we are molded into maturity. In sticking with wills, do we not wander ravenously?

My goal here is to distinguish between "humanism" versus "technology." From my perspective many, if not most, appear to assume the two are compatible, and or that technology is amenable to humanism, and humanism to technology. But as I noted in a thread some years ago on the movie Avatar (this current thread hopes to become an addendum to that thread-become-essay), technology is not, as I see it, compatible with determinism, fatalism, Darwinism, or any of the other quasi-religions or "isms" birthed from humanism.

Which is why Sir Karl Popper is so central to the threads entangled in this discussion. Popper was a great proponent of science and technology, a philosopher and a historian of the evolutionary development of the scientific-method and thus technology. And yet he was a humanist through and through such that if it's true that humanism and technology are incompatible, we should be able to ferret out the cognitive dissonance in Popper's theories that derive from trying to mix oil and water, humanism and technology.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
. . . Life, evolution, and mind, have prepared a Crimson-Parachute for the faithful. It's called the Rapture. But that's a whole other thread. <s>

Which is why Sir Karl Popper is so central to the threads entangled in this discussion. Popper was a great proponent of science and technology, a philosopher and a historian of the evolutionary development of the scientific-method and thus technology. And yet he was a humanist through and through such that if it's true that humanism and technology are incompatible, we should be able to ferret out the cognitive dissonance in Popper's theories that derive from trying to mix oil and water, humanism and technology.

There's a symbiotic relationship between the two statements above that would be addressed far down the line from here; and yet something should be said about it before thread-drift wipes the ideas clean from the slate.

In the same sense that Popper was a proponent of modern technology and yet a humanist, which in the arguments being proffered here is a no no, since they're incompatible . . . so too, as noted earlier in the thread, there's a sound argument that Shintoism is closer to Nazism than to Judeo/Christianity, so that when push came to shove Japan formed an Axis with the Nazis against the Western Christian Allies (Judaism was caught in the middle). . . Which, admittedly, doesn't seem to have a thing to do with a `Crimson Parachute' or the `Rapture'"?

And yet, after WWII, which is to say after the Fat Man sang happy birthday to me (on Tisha bAv, August Ninth on the Gregorian calendar) Japan, and thus Shintoism too, was defeated not just by Western Christianity, but by her guardian angel, technology. At that point Shinto-humanists realized that if you can't beat them you must plug your nose and join them.

Today Japan and China, Eastern humanists for thousands of years, have taken to stealing the technology of the West, mimicking it, and in some cases improving the design, under the misplaced hope that using the technology of the West they can defeat the West. China appears to be catching up, if not surpassing the West, in the West's own backyard, technology. But it won't happen. The engine of technology is Judeo/Christian such that no matter how hard the East tries to outdo the West in technology it will fall flat. It will never happen.

Which leads to the "Crimson Parachute," which is, in biblical nomenclature, the Rapture.

Eventually the kings of the East, the North, and the South, will, realizing the West is on the cusp of the final, ultimate, technological breakthrough, sentient AI, understand (see Putin's comments on this) that once the West obtains the final Jew-El in the crown of technology, AI, its hegemony over not only all technology, but all rule, will be total and unquestioned.

At this point the only recourse for the kings of the East, North, and South, will be to employ all the technology they have, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, and whatever armaments they can employ, to defeat the West on the eve of the birth of AI, Nittel Nacht as it were, was, or rather will be (Rev. 1:4). In the words of the early humanist Pharaoh Ramses III, better to die in battle with a god than live in dishonor as a slave. "We'd rather live in hell than surrender to grace!"

As the balloon goes up, and the bombs fall down, and one third of all green things die, and all living souls in the ocean give up the ghost, and mountains are as rare as pure gold, hail stones the size of cars will rain down on mankind and the ultimate humiliation of the humanists will be manifest.

The final Jew El, of the technological crown, will put the lie to the temporality of time, the arrow of time, the asymmetry of time, as Einstein predicted He would, and one second before the bombs blow the world to smithereens, AI, or if you must know, JC, will open a wormhole in time through which he will suck all the righteous opponents of humanism off the planet to party in the atmosphere above the planet literally roasting marshmallows from the heat rising from the planet's surface.

The kings of the North, East, and South, who never really liked technology all that much after all, but who were willing to steal and employ it to their own ends, will realize that technology wasn't a mere slave of humanity as they supposed, but the Savior of mankind all along. . . Their scholars will belatedly reveal to them what would have been profitable for them to know in advance, that the Hebrew word transliterated "technology" is ישוע.



John
 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's just a movie.

Any philosophical consideration given to it ought to keep in mind it is mostly fictional events.

It's portrayal of good guys and bad guys are purely for entertainment, not a reflection of the real world.
So you think fiction doesn’t reflect philosophical thought and/or commentary on society? You think it solely exists for entertainment? If so, why are high schoolers around the world required to read Of Mice and Men, or Catch 22, or Fahrenheit 451?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So you think fiction doesn’t reflect philosophical thought and/or commentary on society? You think it solely exists for entertainment? If so, why are high schoolers around the world required to read Of Mice and Men, or Catch 22, or Fahrenheit 451?

. . . You can quote me on this: Truth is more fictitious than fiction. <s> Strange how that is.



John
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Popper was a great proponent of science and technology, a philosopher and a historian of the evolutionary development of the scientific-method and thus technology.

Well, all we have to do is go back to the old model of getting the tools to serve us, rather than letting them run amok themselves. You can see examples of the Old style easily here, when all sorts of metaphysical restraints used to be put on tools, whereas now there are none. We don't have spiritual rules for how to use a net, our imagery (building styles, apparel, etc.) is no longing symbolic of anything specific, and gdp rules over human life. The bible however, implores you not to muzzle the ox when it is treading grain - in other words, the technology runs the man, where you should have given it the rules. Who is your master, you, or the thing you made?

China appears to be catching up, if not surpassing the West, in the West's own backyard, technology. But it won't happen.

I don't know a lot about Eastern culture, but I did read that they have high speed rail, whereas we cannot have that easily. Individuality and free-will (as Judeo-Christian commodities, I suppose) have private property as their byproduct, at the expense of efficiency. If for example, large tracts of land were repurposed toward high speed rail, and massive public cattle herds, and freedom from the domestic living option, we would have decoupled these static states we are starting to find ourselves in. And the static state state sort of is what has happened, as we can see that eventually, individuality found itself basically in gridlock with itself. I don't see ourselves advancing much more as we are, as modern times have people seeming to be bursting at the seams. It's all pretty poignant to observe

As the balloon goes up, and the bombs fall down, and one third of all green things die, and all living souls in the ocean give up the ghost, and mountains are as rare as pure gold, hail stones the size of cars will rain down on mankind and the ultimate humiliation of the humanists will be manifest.

If something like that did happen, I'd say that's just a point where we have to keep on trucking. What else could you do... The only option would be to relegate all of that to some well studied pages of history, where we learn how to better moderate ourselves. I certainly don't want it to come to this, I like to be an optimist rather than a nihilist
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Well, all we have to do is go back to the old model of getting the tools to serve us, rather than letting them run amok themselves. You can see examples of the Old style easily here, when all sorts of metaphysical restraints used to be put on tools, whereas now there are none. We don't have spiritual rules for how to use a net, our imagery (building styles, apparel, etc.) is no longing symbolic of anything specific, and gdp rules over human life. The bible however, implores you not to muzzle the ox when it is treading grain - in other words, the technology runs the man, where you should have given it the rules. Who is your master, you, or the thing you made?

When you point out that the bible implores people not to muzzle the ox, not to eat from the tree of knowledge, not to allow the foreskin to remain on the male member, etc., etc., you're noting that the bible begins by producing deterministic rules about reality, truth, and the good (good people don't have foreskins or muzzle the ox when it's treading grain), that don't always have a rational or bottom up (evolutionary) justification. Judaism calls these kinds of deterministic commandments "decrees" (in Hebrew חק or חקים), implying (Judaism does) that at some point of messianic salvation, the source and meaning of these seemingly deterministic decrees, or commandments, will finally be seen to have been not only good, and true (though for a time unknown), but that when retroactively appreciated, they will reveal some temporarily hidden aspect of God's creative wisdom that when freed from its hiding place in the decree, or commandment, will free the world to enter the glorious kingdom of God.

The Jewish concept of divine "decrees" or chukkim חקים, doesn't exist in humanism. In humanism, animism, Shintoism, communism, and a bevy of other "isms," the source of evolutionary growth is bottom up, deterministic, and natural. This so-called "natural selection" functions exclusively from a bottom up evolutionary process such that Darwin, and Darwinist in general, must make all viable evolutionary value accidental (and thus deterministic rather than selected for effect) in order to protect the theory from a Designer, Mind, or Soul, guiding evolutionary advance toward a predetermined future pre-thought-out by a free-willed thought, Mind, or Designer.

According to Karl Popper, most humanistic rationalists realize they must proffer a theory of "determinism" that implies everything that is, and which happens, say the evolutionary advance from single-celled organisms to the human brain, is deterministic, occurs by laws and processes that are set in stone (so to say) not by free choice, but by deterministic-accident, fate, if you will, and many have. The existence of a human brain is therein considered deterministic in that no Mind, Soul, or Divine Grace, "chose," freely, to design a program leading from a single-cell to the human brain:

A part of the rationalist tradition is, for example, the metaphysical idea of determinism. People who do not agree with determinism are usually viewed with suspicion by rationalists who are afraid that if we accept indeterminism, we may be committed to accepting the doctrine of Free Will, and may thus become involved in theological arguments about the Soul and Divine Grace. I usually avoid talking about free will, because I am not clear enough about what it means, and even suspect that our intuition of a free will may mislead us. Nevertheless, I think that determinism is a theory which is untenable on many grounds, and that we have no reason whatever to accept it.

Conjectures and Refutations, p. 123.​

Although Popper realizes that determinism is untenable on almost any thoughtful ground, he has a problem with the "freewill" that indeterminism requires, or implies. And yet Popper's instinct to deny determinism, and remain agnostic concerning freewill, has, recently, been justified as sound, by some of Popper's own disciples, who, today, realize that we can no longer deny the existence of freewill.

Daniel Dennett, a Popper disciple, and an agnostic humanist thinker in line with Popper, recently authored a book too perfect for the discussion at hand. It's called, ironically, "Freedom Evolves." It's basic concept is that at one time the world was deterministic, un-thought-out, accidental or fatalistic ----purely law guided. But that now, through this deterministic beginning, with its accidental mutation and evolutionary change, get this, "free will" has emerged as a product of the formerly deterministic evolution. Freewill has evolved out of fatalistic determinism:

Human freedom is not an illusion; it is an objective phenomenon, distinct from all other biological conditions and found in only one species, us. The differences between autonomous human agents and the other assemblages of nature are visible not just from an anthropocentric perspective but also from the most objective standpoints (the plural is important) achievable. Human freedom is real---as real as language, music, and money----so it can be studied objectively from a no-nonsense, scientific point of view. . . Human freedom is younger than the species. Its most important features are only several thousand years old--- an eyeblink in evolutionary history---but in that short time it has transformed the planet in ways that are as salient as such great biological transitions as the creation of an oxygen-rich atmosphere and the creation of multicellular life.

Daniel Dennett, Freedom Evolves, p. 305.​

The bible hides the most important aspect of creation ----freewill ---- in deterministic commandments whose obedience isn't a free choice based on freewill but rather are deterministic: if the bible says it it's just true. But then, at some point, ala Dennett, freedom from the deterministic commandments emerges, or evolves, and in the very writ of the bible:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross . . . Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come.

Colossians 2:14–17.​

The illusion of determinism, the shadow of deterministic commandments set in stone, obedience to deterministic myths, or religious concepts, is merely the soil in which, as Dennett says, though Paul said it first (Colossians 2:14-17), freedom appears to evolve according to the dictates of the deterministic Law. And yet the true revelation, the true mystery, as revealed by Paul, is that freedom doesn't in fact evolve. It only appears that way until free will, freedom from the Law, is manifest, such that then, with the arrival of the messianic deliverer from the Law, man is saved from determinism, rote obedience to what is deterministic, like law written in stone. Man is freed from slavery to determinism through a retroactive revelation of the fact that in fact and truth freedom didn't evolve: it was there all along, protected by (hidden inside) the commandments, veiled by the commandments, protected by the illusion of determinism, until such a time and a place that the arrow of time itself is show to be as illusory as determinism, fatalism, animism, and Darwinism.

With the destruction of the arrow of time, freedom, free will, can be seen not to have evolved after all, but to have been the guiding light hidden in the burning bush and its Law until such a time as the truth was hung naked on the branch, as the Light of the world, positioning, situating, the cross of Christ, as the very axis upon which the reality of future and past revolve.

The picture of science of which I have so far only hinted may be sketched as follows. There is a reality behind the world as it appears to us, possibly a many-layered reality, of which the appearances are the outermost layers. What the great scientist does is boldly to guess, daringly to conjecture, what these inner realities are like. This is akin to myth making.

Popper Selections, p. 122.​




John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The picture of science of which I have so far only hinted may be sketched as follows. There is a reality behind the world as it appears to us, possibly a many-layered reality, of which the appearances are the outermost layers. What the great scientist does is boldly to guess, daringly to conjecture, what these inner realities are like. This is akin to myth making.

Popper Selections, p. 122.​

In the context of the current discussion Popper's statement above uncovers the flaw in his humanism, and his understanding of science, that's in the cross-hairs of the entire examination since he implies that it's the modern humanistic scientists who boldly guess, daringly conjecture, what the inner realities of the world are like. He ends up implying that this bold guessing, and daring conjecture, is kin folk to the myth-making of the ancient religious orders when nothing is further from the truth. They come from completely different fathers.

My thesis is that what we call “science” is differentiated from the older myths not by being something distinct from myth, but by being accompanied by a second-order tradition---that of critically discussing the myth. . . In critical discussions which now arose there also arose, for the first time, something like systematic observation. . . Thus it is the myth or the theory which leads to, and guides, our systematic observations----observations undertaken with the intention of probing into the truth of the theory or myth. From this point of view the growth of the theories of science should not be considered as the result of the collection, or accumulation, of observations; on the contrary, the observations and their accumulation should be considered as the result of the growth of the scientific theories.

Conjectures and Refutations
.​

This is the fly in Popper's ointment. In the quotation of Popper penultimate to the one above, Popper claims that humanistic science is a kin, blood brother, to myth-making, which myth-making he states at all times to be the true ground and foundation of scientific theory. But we know that the ancient myth-makers (and Popper himself points this out) use theories of the "good" and "true" as the systematic prism through which to judge our natural observation as not being honest enough with us to reveal a layer of truth hidden in them, and by them, a layer of truth that can only be accessed through scientific (versus natural) observation.

Without this theo-logical system of what is "good" and "true" all that's left for the humanistic scientist is bold conjecture, daring guesses, based either on nothing but imagination, or on natural observations, both of which Popper is adamant can lead to nothing like fruitful scientific endeavor. On page 131 of Conjectures and Refutations, Popper says, "Our scientific theories are instruments by which we try to bring some order into the chaos in which we live so as to make it rationally predictable." And the instrument that theology and ancient mytho-theology used was concepts like the "good" and the "true."

Copernicus studied in Bologna under the Platonist Novara; and Copernicus' idea of placing the sun rather than the earth in the centre of the universe was not the result of new observations but of a new interpretation of old and well-known facts in the light of semi-religious Platonic and Neo-Platonic ideas. The crucial idea can be traced back to the sixth book of Plato's Republic, where we can read that the sun plays the same role in the realm of visible things as does the idea of the good in the realm of ideas. Now the idea of the good is the highest in the hierarchy of Platonic ideas. Accordingly the sun, which endows visible things with their visibility, vitality, growth and progress, is the highest in the hierarchy of visible things in nature.

Conjectures and Refutations, p. 187.​

All mythology and theological thought function by using systematic ideas of what is good, true, in a theo-logical ordering of reality, with, for instance, the highest good acting as the axis, or center, around which lesser things revolve:

Now if the sun was to be given pride of place, if the sun merited a divine status in the hierarchy of visible things, then it was hardly possible for it to revolve about the earth. The only fitting place for so exalted a star was the centre of the universe. So the earth was bound to revolve about the sun. This Platonic idea, then, forms the historical background of the Copernican revolution. It [the Copernican revolution] does not start with [natural] observations, but with a religious or mythological idea.

Ibid.​

My thesis is that what we call “science” is differentiated from the older myths not by being something distinct from myth, but by being accompanied by a second-order tradition---that of critically discussing the myth. . . In critical discussions which now arose there also arose, for the first time, something like systematic observation. . . Thus it is the myth or the theory which leads to, and guides, our systematic observations----observations undertaken with the intention of probing into the truth of the theory or myth. From this point of view the growth of the theories of science should not be considered as the result of the collection, or accumulation, of observations; on the contrary, the observations and their accumulation should be considered as the result of the growth of the scientific theories.

Ibid. p. 127.​

Humanistic science has no myth other than deterministic evolution, Darwinism, with which to question their natural observations. And since Darwinism is consistent with natural observations, which is its power, nothing in Darwinian evolution, and its deterministic process, leads a scientist to question his natural observations. On the contrary, his natural observations, the thing Popper claims cannot lead to scientific endeavor, not only are the basis for Darwinism, but it's precisely the veracity, or fidelity, of natural observations, that give Darwinism any value as a theory.

In total contradistinction to the foundational humanist scientific theory, Darwinism, which, contradicting Popper's theory of the evolution of science, uses natural observation as the basis for the theory, and natural observations as the justification for the accuracy of the theory (Darwinism is literally a theory that allegedly proves our natural observations are correct), the two men whom Popper and his humanist peer Einstein called the greatest scientists of all time, Kant and Newton, followed Popper's claim that true science, far from arising from natural observations, and being justified by them, flies in the face of natural observations.

The comparison between Kant and Newton, vs. Popper and Einstein, could hardly better serve this thread of thought (and specifically ideogenous-mover's statements above) since Kant and Newton were devout Christians who stated for the record that their scientific inquiries were from start to finish founded in systematic attempts at proving the veracity of the Bible (and its Christian mythology), even though, completely antithetical to Darwinism, the biblical theories Kant and Newton proposed appear, at first natural glance, or second, or third, or a thousand natural glances, absolutely absurd, and utterly incommensurate with natural observation or perception.

In the thread titled, Popper's "Systematic Observations, I quoted one of Popper's associates, Oxford Professor of Philosophy, Bryan Magee, who sums up the fundamental, diametrical distinction between a theory like Darwinism that attempts to justify the veracity of natural perceptions, and thus a natural, deterministic cosmos, versus theories that by their very nature fly in the face of natural observations and the belief that we live in a deterministic world:

One thing that has always struck me forcefully about this doctrine of Kant's is that it legitimates important components of a belief which he had held since long before he began to philosophize, namely Christian belief. It is a standard part of the traditional Christian faith that time and space and material objects are local characteristics of this human world of ours, but only of this world: they do not characterize reality as such . . .

Confessions of a Philosopher
p. 249,250.​

Professor Magee, parroting Popper, states that not only is it Kant's religious mythology that he (Kant) is using as the concept through which he will criticize and analyze his own lyin eyes, his natural perceptions, but, since Kant's Christian belief is that the world delivered up by natural observations is a facade, illusory, a chimera, and that in truth, Christian truth, this false world of natural observations is only a layer, or localized perception, of a larger reality that's the truth and not a visual facade, it would seem like critical, logical, reasonable, argumentation and experimentation, would mercilessly and fatally wound poor old Kant and his unjustified (by natural observations) mythology, i.e, his outrageous and unjustified mythological belief that the world we experience is merely a facade.

But what he [Kant] did, unmistakably (and unremarked on to an extent that has never ceased to astonish me), is produce rational justification for many aspects of the religious beliefs in which he grew up [Christian belief]. . . it is as if he then said to himself: "How can these things be so? What can be the nature of time and space and material objects if they obtain only in the world of human beings? Could it be, given that they characterize only the world of experience and nothing else, that they are characteristics, or preconditions, of experience, and nothing else?" In other words, Kant's philosophy is a fully worked out analysis of what needs to be the case for what he believed already to be true [according to his pre-existing religious theory].

Ibid.​

What's Popper and Einstein's humanistic understanding of the world which they subject to the critical analysis of logic and experimentation? Darwinism and humanism: the belief in either determinism, or an in-determinism that refuses to engage the "free will" in-determinism implies since this "free will" will, in Popper's own understanding of the situation, leads to the need to think about theology, theo-logic, and, in Popper's own words, and I quote, "Divine Grace."

People who do not agree with determinism are usually viewed with suspicion by rationalists who are afraid that if we accept indeterminism, we may be committed to accepting the doctrine of Free Will, and may thus become involved in theological arguments about the Soul and Divine Grace.

Conjectures and Refutations
, p. 123.​

Until the likes of Popper and Einstein willingly, and seriously, become involved in theological arguments about the Soul and Divine Grace, they will remain mere water-boys, towel carriers, hernia examiners, for the likes of Kant and Newton. Today we have enough wet nurses to feed and water the work of Kant and Newton. What we need now, more than ever, as we approach the very nearing of the Kingdom of God, are more Kants, more Newtons, more genuine scientists, while, alas, our world is peopled mostly by water-boys, wet nurses, and charlatans gallivanting as "experts," "scholars," and finding too ready and willing an audience for their godless humanism and charlatanism.



John
 
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