The Last Prophecy of Revelation

[Faithofchristian]

Maybe it already happened in 2000 and the rest of us still here are in denial.

But seriously, I had a friend who really thought Jesus would return in his lifetime. He died 10 years ago. My prediction like the millions before us we will all be long dead and gone before the second coming.

Yeah, I myself have met people who have thought that same thing.
That's only because they have no understanding or knowledge what the book of Revelation is about.

God has given in the book of Revelation the last Prophecy to happen that when this Prophecy happens Christ Jesus returns and not before this last Prophecy happens First.

 

[74x12]

I don't think so 74x12. It looks to me like the post you quoted and described as "pretty good" has already been deleted.

All the seals, trumpets and vials are from God. Anyone claiming they are from Satan would be engaging in blasphemy, akin to claiming Jesus performed miracles through Beelzebub.

God allows or unleashes Satan at times. Yes God made all trumpets etc. But more than one trumpet unleashes evil spirits. Be careful how you judge others of blasphemy. Judge not and you won't be judged. You're right that none of the trumpets, vials etc. should be called "satan's". However that there is a distinction with the 7th is also obvious.

 

[74x12]

Context FOC, context!!!

I never claimed "all the trumpets has been sounded". I am merely stating that once the 7th trumpet sounds, the sounding of the prior 6 trumpets have already occurred.

Well that's obvious. What I meant by asking you how chronological is Revelation is whether you believe first the vials, then the trumpets and finally the bowls? Or, whether you think these could overlap?

 

[74x12]

All variations given by you include the word “when”. The only difference I see is some translations use the word “begin” and others use “about”. Whether it’s “…he shall begin to sound” or whether its “he is about to sound” makes little difference since the trumpet at Matthew 24:31 is sounding “…immediately after the tribulation of those days” whereas when the 7th trumpet of Revelation sounds there is plenty of tribulation to go…in fact, the greatest part of the tribulation, the seven vials that about to start.

My bad. Yes when is in there. However about definitely does make a difference because you were making it out as though the trumpet would sound for whole days. That's not how I read it. As for your point that the trumpet must sound immediately after the tribulation. How do you even know the 7th trumpet sounds during the tribulation? Why could it not sound "immediately after" the tribulation? I really don't get this argument of yours.

Since the trumpet sounding at Matthew 24:31 is sounding “after” (and it makes absolutely no difference if this is “immediately” after) the tribulation period, and since the 7th trumpet of Revelation marks the end of the initial 3 ½ year tribulation period and the beginning of the horror comprising the greater tribulation (the last 3 ½ year period, (Greek: τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29) with plenty of tribulation (bowls/vials) to go, I don't see how they can possibly be the same trumpet.

They are separate, distinct events.

You seem to assume the 7 trumpets sound and then the bowls afterwards. What if they overlap?

 

[74x12]

and Jesus’s words were to the Philadelphians and included all Christians.

That's an assumption.

Then perhaps it would be easier if you could explain the trial, testing,or temptation "...that shall come upon the whole world" and why Jesus promised only the Philadelphians would be spared from it.

It's not a fact that everyone is Philadelphian.

If you prefer the textus receptus as more trustworthy then you should love the KIng James version which is what I quoted.

KJV is good but it does have some issues and in certain places adds words or changes meanings. Over all though, I like it.

The 7 trumpets are chronological…I don’t know anyone who believes the 7th trumpet sounds before the 1st, nor anyone who believes the 5th before the 3rd, but after spending time on this forum I’m ready to be pleasantly surprised.

Of course. The 7 trumpets are in order. But some people assume first the seals, then the trumpets etc. Which are you?

 

[Faithofchristian]

God allows or unleashes Satan at times. Yes God made all trumpets etc. But more than one trumpet unleashes evil spirits. Be careful how you judge others of blasphemy. Judge not and you won't be judged. You're right that none of the trumpets, vials etc. should be called "satan's". However that there is a distinction with the 7th is also obvious.

The 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail, is
Satan = 666.

When the 6th seal is open and the 6th trump sounds, at this time, Satan will be cast out of heaven, to the earth. Revelation 12:7-12.

The 7th seal, 7th trump, 7th Vail is
Christ Jesus = 777.

 

[74x12]

The 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail, is
Satan = 666.

When the 6th seal is open and the 6th trump sounds, at this time, Satan will be cast out of heaven, to the earth. Revelation 12:7-12.

The 7th seal, 7th trump, 7th Vail is
Christ Jesus = 777.

Just to clarify. By saying that; you're not literally saying satan is a seal, a trumpet, a vail? You're saying that those things cause this to happen; correct?

 

[Faithofchristian]

Just to clarify. By saying that; you're not literally saying satan is a seal, a trumpet, a vail? You're saying that those things cause this to happen; correct?

the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail,
Repsents Satan = 666

 

[Oeste]

God allows or unleashes Satan at times. Yes God made all trumpets etc. But more than one trumpet unleashes evil spirits.

Exactly. God sometimes unleashes Satan but it's always to bring us to repentance. We are saved by grace. If not for His grace we would be under the constant ravages of Satan and his demonic horde.

Be careful how you judge others of blasphemy. Judge not and you won't be judged.

I believe I am being very careful.

Nevertheless you give excellent advice so let me be clear…I consider the assertion and not the asserter blasphemous and I would not even have done that had he claimed, say, the “locusts” as evil or belonging to Satan rather than the seals, trumpets or vials themselves.

In any event, he makes it clear he sees the 6th seal, trump and vial as Satanic:

The 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail, is
Satan = 666.

 

[Oeste]

Well that's obvious. What I meant by asking you how chronological is Revelation is whether you believe first the vials, then the trumpets and finally the bowls? Or, whether you think these could overlap?

Chronologically, but I think the question a rabbit hole since there are thousands of eschatological positions out there. My purpose here was to refute the notion that the Rapture could not occur and was void of biblical support, and not to argue for or against a pre, mid or post trib rapture.

 

[Oeste]

My bad. Yes when is in there. However about definitely does make a difference because you were making it out as though the trumpet would sound for whole days. That's not how I read it.

Let’s look at Revelation 10:7 again:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin* to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (*or about)​

First the “voice of the seventh angel” is a voice measured in days. This angel’s voice is the sound of the trumpet. If the verse is “…begin to sound…” the angel has a voice, because there is sound in the air. BTW, if it’s “…about to sound…” the angel has no voice because the trumpet hasn’t sounded yet.

Now we go to the Revelation 11:14-15

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.​

Here we see two things. The second woe is past before the seventh angel sounds. So there is no way this and the resultant bowls (or vials) can overlap with anything that occurs with the second woe.

Next, we go to 1 Corinthians 15:52:

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

Note the trumpet at Revelation 10:7 lasts for days, but the trumpet at 1 Corinthians lasts for a moment. The trumpet sounds, the dead are raised and we are changed all in the “twinkling of an eye”.

Now we go to 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.​

Trumpets were often used to sound commands (for example, a toot to charge into battle or to withdraw) while others were tooted to make announcements, such as the arrival or beginning of a procession.

In this respect 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 are remarkably similar, so much so that we can see them as describing the same event. Why? Because both have a relatively short trumpet sound, both have the dead rising, both have those living changed, and both show death overcome.

In Revelation 11 you have none of this except a trumpet sound, and unlike the other trumpets this one is distinctive in that it sounds for several days. So it is not only evidence, but the weight of the evidence that compels Revelation 11 as a separate events from 1 Thes 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:12.

If you have scriptural evidence that can produce a different weight you would be well on your way to changing many a mind. I just haven’t seen anyone produce any.

 

[Oeste]

You seem to assume the 7 trumpets sound and then the bowls afterwards.

I think it better to exegete rather than make assumptions about the text.

When the second trumpet is blown one third of the sea creatures die (Rev. 8:8-9), but when the second bowl is poured Revelation 16:3 says that “every living thing in the sea died.”

Unless our goal is to introduce conflict, it’s pretty clear the bowl comes after the trumpet.

What if they overlap?

You’ve already seen what happens when they overlap. You get folks combining seals, trumpets and bowls like this:

The 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th Vail, is
Satan = 666.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I think it better to exegete rather than make assumptions about the text.

When the second trumpet is blown one third of the sea creatures die (Rev. 8:8-9), but when the second bowl is poured Revelation 16:3 says that “every living thing in the sea died.”

Unless our goal is to introduce conflict, it’s pretty clear the bowl comes after the trumpet.



You’ve already seen what happens when they overlap. You get folks combining seals, trumpets and bowls like this:

You actually believe that those are actually sea creatures. You got to be kidding right.

 

[Oeste]

You actually believe that those are actually sea creatures. You got to be kidding right.

I don't see how it matters.

You cannot have every (literal/symbolic) living thing in the sea die one moment and then claim a third of the (literal/symbolic) sea creatures die later.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I don't see how it matters.

You cannot have every (literal/symbolic) living thing in the sea die one moment and then claim a third of the (literal/symbolic) sea creatures die later.

Look, those are not actually sea creatures,
If you go to Revelation 17:15, there you will find that, sea, oceans, water, fountains of water,
Represents people, nations. multitudes of people. Throughout the book of Revelation.

 

[74x12]

When the second trumpet is blown one third of the sea creatures die (Rev. 8:8-9), but when the second bowl is poured Revelation 16:3 says that “every living thing in the sea died.”

Unless our goal is to introduce conflict, it’s pretty clear the bowl comes after the trumpet.

This is a conflict only if you assume they overlap perfectly. We don't know that they do that. Some may coincide perfectly while others do not.

 

[74x12]

Let’s look at Revelation 10:7 again:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin* to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (*or about)​

First the “voice of the seventh angel” is a voice measured in days. This angel’s voice is the sound of the trumpet. If the verse is “…begin to sound…” the angel has a voice, because there is sound in the air.

When we read it from a different translation that correctly adds "about to"; then we find that during those "days"(plural) he is "about to" sound. That means he didn't sound during those days but apparently at the end of those days is when he sounds.
(World English Bible) Rev. 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as he declared to his servants, the prophets.

Even the number 7 is symbolic of finality. It was established from Genesis that the week would be 7 days. The 7th day is the last day. So, it follows that the 7th trumpet is the final trumpet.

 

[74x12]

Now we go to the Revelation 11:14-15

The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Here we see two things. The second woe is past before the seventh angel sounds. So there is no way this and the resultant bowls (or vials) can overlap with anything that occurs with the second woe.

In Rev. 8:13 we see the angel says woe 3 times and apparently the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets are the 3 woes spoken of.

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! (Rev. 8:13)

The bowls/vials might occur after the 7th trumpet because we do see the gathering of saints in heaven on the sea of glass at the beginning of the 7 vials. (Rev 15) I haven't studied that enough to say conclusively. On the other hand these saints may only be those who died from the persecutions; I'm not sure yet.

However, the "Great tribulation" will have been already accomplished before the rapture as it says "immediately after" the tribulation of those days. (Matthew 24:22-31) In Revelation 7:14 we see they came out of "great tribulation". There is no way that only the Jews will go through the "great tribulation". This will be for all and the 7th trumpet is the rapture and yes the two witnesses will finish their ministry then.

The word "tribulation" obviously is persecution, distress, trouble etc. and has to do with the elect themselves who will be the ones persecuted by satan. The woman is given wings of an eagle to fly into the wilderness, but not raptured. the devil goes to make war on her "seed". This seed of the woman(same as Genesis seed of woman) is the elect believers. They are not raptured either but must overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb and Word of testimony.

 

[Faithofchristian]

In Rev. 8:13 we see the angel says woe 3 times and apparently the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets are the 3 woes spoken of.

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! (Rev. 8:13)

The bowls/vials might occur after the 7th trumpet because we do see the gathering of saints in heaven on the sea of glass at the beginning of the 7 vials. (Rev 15) I haven't studied that enough to say conclusively. On the other hand these saints may only be those who died from the persecutions; I'm not sure yet.

However, the "Great tribulation" will have been already accomplished before the rapture as it says "immediately after" the tribulation of those days. (Matthew 24:22-31) In Revelation 7:14 we see they came out of "great tribulation". There is no way that only the Jews will go through the "great tribulation". This will be for all and the 7th trumpet is the rapture and yes the two witnesses will finish their ministry then.

The word "tribulation" obviously is persecution, distress, trouble etc. and has to do with the elect themselves who will be the ones persecuted by satan. The woman is given wings of an eagle to fly into the wilderness, but not raptured. the devil goes to make war on her "seed". This seed of the woman(same as Genesis seed of woman) is the elect believers. They are not raptured either but must overcome satan by the blood of the Lamb and Word of testimony.

The 7th trump when it is sounded, brings the Tribulation to it's end and the return of Christ Jesus.
Therefore Christ Jesus can not return until the 7th trump is sounded.