The Last Prophecy of Revelation

[Faithofchristian]

Really ? So exactly what does harpagisometha (1 Thessalonians 4:17) mean to you?



That's not exactly true.

The word "rapture" is derived from the Latin raptus, which simply means "a carrying off". It's the equivalent of harpazo in Koine Greek.

Rapture eschatology is divided into 3 major categories:

1. Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture (or carrying off)
2. Those who believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, and
3. Those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture.​

I'm sure there are plenty of mid and post tribs who will be glad to hear this.



All that tells me is that you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. It does absolutely nothing to foster your prior claim that a Rapture doesn't occur.

The Rapture Theory, Is not true and will not happen, For the simple fact, That the last Prophecy that God has given in the book of Revelation has to happen first, Which doesn't happen until at the end of the Tribulation.
So what good will the Rapture do, When the Tribulation has ended, Over.

Unless you believe what some Pastor, Preacher will tell you, Over what God has said. So who's your God. Your Pastor, Preacher or God Himself.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I'll leave you with Ezekiel 13 20-23

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord

Sorry brother there is no free pass. We (the flesh that yet lives on the day) shall suffer the same trials, tribulations and temptations that the heathens do, all the way to the bitter sweet end.

If I may say, Your right about what your saying, here about Ezekiel 13:20.

When reading Ezekiel 13:20, Notice, God is against those who teach his children that they will fly away to save their souls.

This is what people are being taught to day by the Rapture Theory.
That they will fly ( Rapture ) away to save their souls. God is against those who teach people they will fly ( Rapture) away to save their souls.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Really ? So exactly what does harpagisometha (1 Thessalonians 4:17) mean to you?



That's not exactly true.

The word "rapture" is derived from the Latin raptus, which simply means "a carrying off". It's the equivalent of harpazo in Koine Greek.

Rapture eschatology is divided into 3 major categories:

1. Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture (or carrying off)
2. Those who believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, and
3. Those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture.​

I'm sure there are plenty of mid and post tribs who will be glad to hear this.



All that tells me is that you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. It does absolutely nothing to foster your prior claim that a Rapture doesn't occur.

Just how can the Rapture happen, when by the time the Rapture is to happen, The Tribulation has ended, Over with.

That's why God has given the last Prophecy that's to happen in the book of Revelation, To show you, what your being taught is not true.
But as it is, You would rather listen to man's teachings, Than listen to what God has said.
You do know that Christ Jesus condemned the teachings of man's in Matthew 15:7-9.

The teachings of man's makes Void the word of God. So if your follow man's teachings that is exactly what your doing.
Making Void the word of God.

 

[Enoch07]

Really ? So exactly what does harpagisometha (1 Thessalonians 4:17) mean to you?

The answer is in the next chapter brother. A mere 1 sentence below 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

1 Thessalonians 5

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then you make a good argument for the Rapture, since we know God's wrath will eventually come.upon the entire world.



Absolutely!

People who believe Christ would leave Christians to endure the Tribulation have apparently forgotten about 1Thessalonians 5:9:

“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”​

Look just because God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, does not mean that God is taking us out from the wrath.

God has given in the book of Revelation to help us thru the wrath of the Tribulation.
God's wrath does come down on his children nor does Satan's wrath.

God has given the means in the book of Revelation, to help people thru the wrath of the Tribulation.

So why do you suppose Christ Jesus said in the book of Revelation 3:10--"Because you have kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep you from the hour of temptation"
You see, Christ Jesus will help, keep those from the hour of temptation, by listening to him. And not what man's teachings will say.
The hour of temptation only happens during the middle of the Tribulation.

Which God's wrath only comes down on those who are found standing against God.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The answer is in the next chapter brother. A mere 1 sentence below 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

1 Thessalonians 5

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

If I may say, Notice Verse 5 above,
The light Represents God.
The darkness Represents Satan.

Those who are the children of Light, are God's children.

Those who are the children of darkness, are the children of Satan's.

Hope this helps you.

 

[74x12]

The “last” trumpet does not necessarily mean the “7th” trumpet of Revelation.

The Greek “eschatos” (“last”) can mean last in point of time or last in point of series.

If Paul is referring to the 7th trumpet as the "last trumpet", where does the trumpet that sounds "after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:31) fit into your eschatology?

Secondly, it would have been difficult for the Thessalonians to associate the trumpet described to them with the trumpet in Revelation, since Revelation had not even been written at the time of Paul's epistle to them.

Third, your analysis would have to reconcile a 7th trumpet that lasts for days and Paul 's description of a trumpet that lasts for a moment.

Lastly, even if by some chance the trumpets are the same, it does not negate the rapture. In fact, those who believe in a mid and post tribulation claim precisely this.

If you want to be serious about Bible study you have to let the scriptures define themselves. It's just common sense to understand the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation.
Matthew 24:29 is the same 7th trumpet.
Of course the Thessalonians at this time likely knew nothing of the book of Revelation. Do you know what a revelation is? The Bible builds on itself as it goes. You can use scriptures to understand other scriptures. New Testament verses to understand Genesis for example.
I'm not really sure where you get the idea that the 7th trump must last for days. Care to explain your belief on this?

I see a number of problems with such an analysis.

First, if the people, “taken”, are sinners, where are they being taken to, and how does this fit into your overall eschatology? Are you arguing for a rapture of the unrighteous?

Secondly, if by “ taken” you mean “death” or “die”…on what basis are you interpreting ”taken” in such a manner? The Greek παραλαμβάνω (paralambano) is used 7 times by Luke and 50 times in the New Testament. Not once, anywhere, does it mean “death”:

Paralambano: to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).
Neither am I aware of any Greek scholar who equates “taken” with “dying” or “death”.

I'm not claiming what Jesus said was easy to understand. After all even His disciples who were there in Luke 17 were confused and asked Him "Where Lord?" As in where are they being taken. Jesus' reply about dead bodies is what I'm basing this on. I used to believe it was about the rapture also. Until I noticed wait. It's about dead bodies. So you don't want to be taken.

The letters sent to the congregations are didactic and applicable to all Christians.

If you believe this was a prophesy to one assembly in Asia Minor, and thus not applicable to every Christian, then I see no reason for some to believe only Ephesians compose the actual body of Christ, , only the Corinthians saw things through a “glass darkly”, and that 1st Peter was addressed only to the Jewish exiles dispersed throughout the Roman empire. As such the New Testament would not be directed to Americans, Australians, French, Bolivians or others Christian nationalities living in our modern age.

Of course it's didactic because it's scripture. All scripture is didactic. (2 Tim. 3:16) But, you're conflating prophecy with doctrine. If doctrine is true for one; it's true for all. But a prophecy can be specific. For example even you believe that this verse does not apply to those who are going to be in the tribulation.

I am not a proponent of replacement theology so I believe they are Jewish Christians.

Okay, so only Jewish Christians will face the wrath? How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Phantasman]

Hmm. I thank the Father that I am free in Christ of all this wrath and rapture mumbo jumbo.

 

[Oeste]

Ok, so let's break down
1st Thessalonians 4:17 to get the root of what is actually being said.

Now your sounding like my kinda guy FOC! I like getting down to basics.

First Note Paul wrote --(Then we which are alive and remain ) This being those who haved made it through the Tribulation
( shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ) caught up with Who?

There is no need for us to discuss Who.

Do you see the part about "caught up together"?

That is the Rapture.

Rapture does not mean you are pre, mid, or post trib. It simply means to be carried away or plucked.

With those back in Verse 16
( The dead in Christ ) The dead in Christ, are those who are Spiritually dead --> The Unbelievers.

WHOA....The dead in Christ are UNBELIEVERS???

Honestly FOC, I see absolutely no point in talking about the Rapture if you believe the dead in Christ are unbelievers! Where do you get this information from? We have WAY too many other things to talk about first before we can ever get to the Rapture.

The dead in Christ ( Unbelievers shall rise first to be taken to Judgement ) Then we which are alive and remain shall be with Christ Jesus.

I really think you need to do some restudy here FOC. It is not unbelievers, but believers who are first risen and they do NOT come under judgement.

Again, this is extremely basic stuff. If you don't understand this or know why it's true, then I see little point in discussing the meaning of Harpazo, Paralambano, the Rapture or any other eschatological theory as these statements seriously undermine whatever credibility your original assertions may have contained.

So far you've told us

1. The "Final Prophesy" is contained in Revelation Chapter 11 when even the most cursory glance shows there are at least 11 more chapters of prophetic scripture to go.
2. That Rapture means pre-tribulation, when it actually means to be "carried away" or plucked.
3. That Rapture believers think they will "fly away" when I've never seen any such argument put forward and even the most rudimentary examination of harpazo does not even suggest.
4. The dead in Christ are unbelievers who are spiritually dead and
5. It is the unbelievers who shall rise first to be taken into judgement.
​

I'm almost afraid to ask what assertion you may put forth next.

 

[Oeste]

If you want to be serious about Bible study you have to let the scriptures define themselves. It's just common sense to understand the "last trumpet" is the 7th trumpet of Revelation.
Matthew 24:29 is the same 7th trumpet.

If you want to be serious about BIble study you have to let the scriptures define themselves. That's when we realize that nowhere in scripture does it state the trumpet in Matthew 24:29 and the 7th trumpet are the same. That is an assertion we must read into the text and not out of the text.

Earlier I asked you several questions and you only responded to one. If what you say is true, that the LAST trumpet is the 7th trumpet (which marks the 3rd woe to END the tribulation period), then why is there another trumpet sounding at Matthew 24:31, after the tribulation period?

Also, if the last and 7th trumpet are the same, why is Paul describing it as a trumpet that sounds quickly when Revelation describes it as a trumpet that lasts several days?

Lastly, how does this negate the Rapture when many mid and post tribulation Rapture believers DO believe that the "last" and "7th" trumpet are the same?

I'm not claiming what Jesus said was easy to understand. After all even His disciples who were there in Luke 17 were confused and asked Him "Where Lord?" As in where are they being taken. Jesus' reply about dead bodies is what I'm basing this on. I used to believe it was about the rapture also. Until I noticed wait. It's about dead bodies. So you don't want to be taken.

Same questions then....
1. Do you believe in a rapture of the unrighteous and
2. Do you equate being "taken" with "dying"?

Of course it's didactic because it's scripture. All scripture is didactic. (2 Tim. 3:16) But, you're conflating prophecy with doctrine. If doctrine is true for one; it's true for all. But a prophecy can be specific. For example even you believe that this verse does not apply to those who are going to be in the tribulation.

1. First the prophesy is didactic because the prophesy is scripture, and as you've just stated ...All scripture is didactic.

2. Secondly we know this is didactic because Jesus starts his prophesy thusly...

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3)

Had it been congregation specific it would have read more like this:

"Since the Philadelphians have endured patiently, I will keep them...."

3. Thirdly, we know this is didactic because Jesus' s command to "endure patiently" wasn't addressed solely to the congregation at Philadelphia.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Now your sounding like my kinda guy FOC! I like getting down to basics.



There is no need for us to discuss Who.

Do you see the part about "caught up together"?

That is the Rapture.


Rapture does not mean you are pre, mid, or post trib. It simply means to be carried away or plucked



WHOA....The dead in Christ are UNBELIEVERS???

Honestly FOC, I see absolutely no point in talking about the Rapture if you believe the dead in Christ are unbelievers! Where do you get this information from? We have WAY too many other things to talk about first before we can ever get to the Rapture.

God foretold in the book of Ezekiel that he is against those who teach people that they are going to fly away to save their souls, and that's exactly what the Rapture teaches.That people will be Raptured out to save their souls.

Ezekiel 13:20--"Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith you there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let them go, even the souls that you hunt to make them fly"

Therefore God is against those, who teach people they will fly ( Rapture ) away to save their souls.


I really think you need to do some restudy here FOC. It is not unbelievers, but believers who are first risen and they do NOT come under judgement.

You know Paul written about people like yourself in
1st Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned"

The natural man being You.

Again, this is extremely basic stuff. If you don't understand this or know why it's true, then I see little point in discussing the meaning of Harpazo, Paralambano, the Rapture or any other eschatological theory as these statements seriously undermine whatever credibility your original assertions may have contained.

So far you've told us

1. The "Final Prophesy" is contained in Revelation Chapter 11 when even the most cursory glance shows there are at least 11 more chapters of prophetic scripture to go.

Heck you can't even put the book of Revelation together yourself to make any sense of it.

Your just another one of those fake Christians that Christ Jesus gave prophecy about in Matthew 24:5 --"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many"

Who else profess's to come in Christ name, other than Christians.

Note that Christ is abbreviated for Christian.
Christ = Christian.
Therefore Christ Jesus gave prophecy about how false Christians such as you, that would come to deceive many people, by the teachings and doctrines of man's.

The last Prophecy that God has given, is contained in Revelation Chapter 11.

But you would rather throw God's word to the ground, and follow your Pastor's Preachers, teachings and doctrines, the very thing Christ Jesus condemned man's teachings and doctrines in the book of Matthew 15:7-9.
"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

Therefore Christ Jesus is against, Your Pastors, Preachers teachings, which are nothing more man's teachings and doctrines.

But yet you go about teaching man's teachings and doctrines, The very things that Christ Jesus condemns.




2. That Rapture means pre-tribulation, when it actually means to be "carried away" or plucked.
3. That Rapture believers think they will "fly away" when I've never seen any such argument put forward and even the most rudimentary examination of harpazo does not even suggest.
4. The dead in Christ are unbelievers who are spiritually dead and
5. It is the unbelievers who shall rise first to be taken into judgement.
​

I'm almost afraid to ask what assertion you may put forth next.

You have no knowledge of the Spirit of God and the things that are of the Spirit of God.
For they are foolishness unto you.
As Paul has written in the book of
1st Corinthians 2:14.

But You would rather uphold your Pastor's, Preachers teachings, The very thing Christ Jesus condemned in Matthew 15:7-9.

Since you believe your Pastor's, Preachers knows more than Christ Jesus does, well
Go and run with your Pastor's, Preachers teachings, Your going to fall flat on your face.
Your Pastor's, Preachers word does not stand above God's word. As much as you think it does.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Now your sounding like my kinda guy FOC! I like getting down to basics.



There is no need for us to discuss Who.

Do you see the part about "caught up together"?

That is the Rapture.

Rapture does not mean you are pre, mid, or post trib. It simply means to be carried away or plucked.



WHOA....The dead in Christ are UNBELIEVERS???

Honestly FOC, I see absolutely no point in talking about the Rapture if you believe the dead in Christ are unbelievers! Where do you get this information from? We have WAY too many other things to talk about first before we can ever get to the Rapture.



I really think you need to do some restudy here FOC. It is not unbelievers, but believers who are first risen and they do NOT come under judgement.

Again, this is extremely basic stuff. If you don't understand this or know why it's true, then I see little point in discussing the meaning of Harpazo, Paralambano, the Rapture or any other eschatological theory as these statements seriously undermine whatever credibility your original assertions may have contained.

So far you've told us

1. The "Final Prophesy" is contained in Revelation Chapter 11 when even the most cursory glance shows there are at least 11 more chapters of prophetic scripture to go.
2. That Rapture means pre-tribulation, when it actually means to be "carried away" or plucked.
3. That Rapture believers think they will "fly away" when I've never seen any such argument put forward and even the most rudimentary examination of harpazo does not even suggest.
4. The dead in Christ are unbelievers who are spiritually dead and
5. It is the unbelievers who shall rise first to be taken into judgement.
​

I'm almost afraid to ask what assertion you may put forth next.

Since you believe you know so much about the book of Revelation, By all means, Explain in Revelation 8:10,11, who is wormwood, Who exactly is wormwood ?

Who are the Locust that came out of the smoke, in Revelation 9:3.
Who does the Locust Repsents ?

 

[Faithofchristian]

If you want to be serious about BIble study you have to let the scriptures define themselves. That when you'll realize that nowhere in scripture does it state the trumpet in Matthew 24:29 and the 7th trumpet are the same. That is an assertion you have read into the text and not out of the text.

Earlier I asked you several questions and you only responded to one. If what you say is true, that the LAST trumpet is the 7th trumpet (which marks the 3rd woe to END the tribulation period), then why is there another trumpet sounding at Matthew 24:31, after the tribulation period?

Also, if the last and 7th trumpet are the same, why is Paul describing it as a trumpet that sounds quickly when Revelation describes it as a trumpet that lasts several days?

Lastly, how does this negate the Rapture when many mid and post tribulation Rapture believers DO believe that the "last" and "7th" trumpet are the same?



Same questions then....
1. Do you believe in a rapture of the unrighteous and
2. Do you equate being "taken" with "dying"?



1. First the prophesy is didactic because the prophesy is scripture, and as you've just stated ...All scripture is didactic.

2. Secondly we know this is didactic because Jesus starts his prophesy thusly...

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3)

Had it been congregation specific it would have read more like this:

"Since the Philadelphians have endured patiently, I will keep them...."

3. Thirdly, we know this is didactic because the Jesus' command to "endure patiently" wasn't addressed only to the congregation at Philadelphia.

You know God gave Prophecy as far back in the book of Proverbs that the Righteous shall never be removed from the earth.

Proverbs 10:30--"The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth"

Therefore, since God has said that the righteous shall not be removed from the earth, So Where or how does your Rapture Theory stand up.
To what God has said, that the Righteous shall never be Removed from the earth. So how does your Rapture Theory fit into what God has said ?

God has proven throughout his word, That the Rapture is a false teaching of man's, But yet you go against God, To support, the Rapture teachings of man's. And you call yourself a Christian,
Ok what ever.

Christ is abbreviated for Christian
Christ = Christian ?
And its exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 24:5, That many shall come in his name and deceive many people, Christ = Christian ?

And in case you didn't know, Christians are the very People who claims to come in the name of Christ. And they are the very people that Christ condemn them as false Christians. Which goes about teaching, Man's teachings and doctrines. Which Christ Jesus condemned
In Matthew 15:7-9.

God has given everything in his word to show how much the Rapture stands in error.
But you would rather listen to your Pastor's, Preachers, teachings and doctrines, Than listen to God's word.

 

[Oeste]

God foretold in the book of Ezekiel that he is against those who teach people that they are going to fly away to save their souls, and that's exactly what the Rapture teaches.That people will be Raptured out to save their souls.

Rapture theology teaches no such thing FaithofChristian, and I have a hard time believing you started this thread thinking this is something a rapturist believes.

First, Rapture theology does not teach that people will “fly” during the Rapture. As I have pointed out to you, time and time again, the word harpazo means to be “caught up”, not fly. That is a distinct difference.

Second, Rapture theology does not claim people will be able to save themselves. All salvation belongs to our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Third, I am not aware of any reputable Christian theologian who teaches people will fly away “to save their souls” so your application of Ezekiel to Rapture theology is incorrect.

As such you leave the reader with little alternative than to consider your assertion a strawman, designed not to engage in honest discussion with the Rapture believers of this forum but to disparage them.

You know Paul written about people like yourself in
1st Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned"

The natural man being You.

I’m aware that there are lots of folks on this forum willing to don an angel outfit, march up and down our church aisles, and pronounce this person Christian and that person heretic. Apparently you’re recommending we add your name to the list.

Is this correct?

Your just another one of those fake Christians that Christ Jesus gave prophecy about in Matthew 24:5 --"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many"

Oh come on FOC! There is simply no need to go there. Besides, we both know that what you think of me is immaterial; it’s only what Christ thinks that matters.

In any event, if you have felt personally offended by anything I’ve posted I apologize. I try to focus on the assertion rather than the asserter. I have absolutely zero desire to attack you personally.

Let’s just say we agree to disagree on this. You strike me as someone who enjoys a good spirited debate every now and then so I’m actually looking forward to future discussions where we can agree on things and others where we have less emphatic disagreements.

I’ve noticed a few threads where skeptics claim scripture as bogus . Perhaps we can start there…and not because we agree on our eschatology, but because we both believe the bible is the word of God and have mutual respect for our pro and anti-Rapture positions.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Rapture theology teaches no such thing FaithofChristian, and I have a hard time believing you started this thread thinking this is something a rapturist believes.

First, Rapture theology does not teach that people will “fly” during the Rapture. As I have pointed out to you, time and time again, the word harpazo means to be “caught up”, not fly. That is a distinct difference.

The Rapture teaches people they will be Raptured out, the same, fly out to save their souls. It's all the same. Whether it's caught up or fly up, to save their souls.
It comes down as meaning the same thing.



Second, Rapture theology does not claim people will be able to save themselves. All salvation belongs to our Lord, Jesus Christ.
No but your Rapture does teach that people will be caught up,thereby to save their souls. Otherwise why do teach people they will be caught up. If not to save their souls, from what you claim is the wrath of God.

Third, I am not aware of any reputable Christian theologian who teaches people will fly away “to save their souls” so your application of Ezekiel to Rapture theology is incorrect.

That's all because those Christians theologians, are teaching man's teachings and doctrines, unto which Christ Jesus condemned in Matthew 15:7-9.


As such you leave the reader with little alternative than to consider your assertion a strawman, designed not to engage in honest discussion with the Rapture believers of this forum but to disparage them.
Well since I do not believe in your silly Rapture Theory, I have the right to answer the Thread, in my way and not your way.

And God even denounce your Rapture in the book of Proverbs 10:30--"the righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth"

It's easy to see, what God is saying here, if the wicked shall not inhabit the earth, Then that means, The righteous shall ( Never ) be Removed from the earth.

So how does your little Rapture Theory fit, into what God has said, The Righteous shall never be removed, Meaning from the earth ?



I’m aware that there are lots of folks on this forum willing to don an angel outfit, march up and down our church aisles, and pronounce this person Christian and that person heretic. Apparently you’re recommending we add your name to the list.

Is this correct?



Oh come on FOC! There is simply no need to go there. Besides, we both know that what you think of me is immaterial; it’s only what Christ thinks that matters.

In any event, if you have felt personally offended by anything I’ve posted I apologize. I try to focus on the assertion rather than the asserter. I have absolutely zero desire to attack you personally.

Let’s just say we agree to disagree on this. You strike me as someone who enjoys a good spirited debate every now and then so I’m actually looking forward to future discussions where we can agree on things and others where we have less emphatic disagreements.

I’ve noticed a few threads where skeptics claim scripture as bogus . Perhaps we can start there…and not because we agree on our eschatology, but because we both believe the bible is the word of God and have mutual respect for our pro and anti-Rapture positions.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Rapture theology teaches no such thing FaithofChristian, and I have a hard time believing you started this thread thinking this is something a rapturist believes.

First, Rapture theology does not teach that people will “fly” during the Rapture. As I have pointed out to you, time and time again, the word harpazo means to be “caught up”, not fly. That is a distinct difference.

Second, Rapture theology does not claim people will be able to save themselves. All salvation belongs to our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Third, I am not aware of any reputable Christian theologian who teaches people will fly away “to save their souls” so your application of Ezekiel to Rapture theology is incorrect.

As such you leave the reader with little alternative than to consider your assertion a strawman, designed not to engage in honest discussion with the Rapture believers of this forum but to disparage them.



I’m aware that there are lots of folks on this forum willing to don an angel outfit, march up and down our church aisles, and pronounce this person Christian and that person heretic. Apparently you’re recommending we add your name to the list.

Is this correct?



Oh come on FOC! There is simply no need to go there. Besides, we both know that what you think of me is immaterial; it’s only what Christ thinks that matters.

In any event, if you have felt personally offended by anything I’ve posted I apologize. I try to focus on the assertion rather than the asserter. I have absolutely zero desire to attack you personally.

Let’s just say we agree to disagree on this. You strike me as someone who enjoys a good spirited debate every now and then so I’m actually looking forward to future discussions where we can agree on things and others where we have less emphatic disagreements.

I’ve noticed a few threads where skeptics claim scripture as bogus . Perhaps we can start there…and not because we agree on our eschatology, but because we both believe the bible is the word of God and have mutual respect for our pro and anti-Rapture positions.

By the way, What your saying, what has it to do with the Thread, Which clearly states.
"The last Prophecy of Revelation"

It's all typical of you false Christians, to go off the subject at hand, and go to something else, that has nothing to with the subject at hand, being talk about.As you are showing yourself to do.

So my question to you is, what does your Rapture Theory have to with the last Prophecy that God has given in the book of Revelation Chapter 11 ?

Therefore before Christ Jesus can return the last Prophecy has to happen first. Which brings the end to the Tribulation and the Return of Christ Jesus.

So your Rapture can not happen, for the simple fact, that by the time Christ Jesus comes, The Tribulation is ended, over.

For the last Prophecy that happens that God has given in the book of Revelation,
is what brings the end to the Tribulation and the Return of Christ Jesus.

 

[74x12]

If you want to be serious about BIble study you have to let the scriptures define themselves. That's when we realize that nowhere in scripture does it state the trumpet in Matthew 24:29 and the 7th trumpet are the same. That is an assertion we must read into the text and not out of the text.

Earlier I asked you several questions and you only responded to one. If what you say is true, that the LAST trumpet is the 7th trumpet (which marks the 3rd woe to END the tribulation period), then why is there another trumpet sounding at Matthew 24:31, after the tribulation period?

Also, if the last and 7th trumpet are the same, why is Paul describing it as a trumpet that sounds quickly when Revelation describes it as a trumpet that lasts several days?

Lastly, how does this negate the Rapture when many mid and post tribulation Rapture believers DO believe that the "last" and "7th" trumpet are the same?

It doesn't just say "after" the tribulation. It says immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29. This to me, means the 7th trumpet marks the end. Which is why in Revelation it would say the following about the 7th trumpet:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7)
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.(Rev 11:15)

As for the 7th trumpet lasting several days. As I asked you before; please show me where you get that idea. I am truly curious if you have such information please share it. As far as I can see the 7th trumpet does not necessarily last several days. Please show me where you get that impression from. I want to know if it is so or not.

As for it negating the rapture. I don't know. I do believe the saints will be caught up with Christ in the air when the 7th trumpet sounds. As for the rapture that's up to you to decide. I'm not judging you or anything like that.

Same questions then....
1. Do you believe in a rapture of the unrighteous and
2. Do you equate being "taken" with "dying"?

1. A rapture of the unrighteous? No. Although there is a resurrection for judgment it's at the end of the world.
2. I must take what Jesus said seriously about dead bodies in Luke 17; unless you can counter with solid proof that I am somehow misunderstanding Jesus.

"Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

1. First the prophesy is didactic because the prophesy is scripture, and as you've just stated ...All scripture is didactic.

2. Secondly we know this is didactic because Jesus starts his prophesy thusly...

10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3)

Had it been congregation specific it would have read more like this:

"Since the Philadelphians have endured patiently, I will keep them...."

3. Thirdly, we know this is didactic because Jesus' s command to "endure patiently" wasn't addressed solely to the congregation at Philadelphia.

Well, I don't agree with you here. It seems like you're arguing that therefore everyone who keeps the command patiently will escape the same. Yet, you're maybe not taking into account Jesus and Peter's conversation about John in John 21. Jesus had just informed Peter that Peter would be a martyr, so Peter wanted to know if John would also be a martyr. Jesus replies:

Jesus said to him, “If I desire that he stay until I come, what is that to you? You follow me.” (John 21:22 WEB)

So is every Christian a martyr? No. Is every Christian going through the tribulation? Obviously not. But that doesn't mean we're all escaping it either.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It doesn't just say "after" the tribulation. It says immediately after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29. This to me, means the 7th trumpet marks the end. Which is why in Revelation it would say the following about the 7th trumpet:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Rev 10:7)
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.(Rev 11:15)

When the 7th trump sounds, is what brings the Tribulation to it's end and coming of Christ Jesus.

As to where do you get, that I said the 7th trump lasting several days. When do you get that At ?

When I never said anything or mention, about the 7th trump in my whole Thread ? About the last Prophecy in Revelation.



As for the 7th trumpet lasting several days. As I asked you before; please show me where you get that idea. I am truly curious if you have such information please share it. As far as I can see the 7th trumpet does not necessarily last several days. Please show me where you get that impression from. I want to know if it is so or not.

As for it negating the rapture. I don't know. I do believe the saints will be caught up with Christ in the air when the 7th trumpet sounds. As for the rapture that's up to you to decide. I'm not judging you or anything like that.

Had you any knowledge about the Hebrew Language to Translate the word ( air )
In the Strong's Concordance in 5397, on the Hebrew which means ( Ruwach) which means ( Spirit )
Therefore to meet the Lord in the Spirit.



1. A rapture of the unrighteous? No. Although there is a resurrection for judgment it's at the end of the world.
2. I must take what Jesus said seriously about dead bodies in Luke 17; unless you can counter with solid proof that I am somehow misunderstanding Jesus.

"Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Had you any idea about Spiritual discernment of what Jesus is referring to, one shall be take and the other left.
The taken, is taken by deception and deceving words of the Antichrist when he comes.
The two that are in the field, one shall be taken and the other left.
The field repsents the world,
Matthew 13:38--"The field is the world"
Therefore the two are evangelist working in the world, one shall be taken by the deceptions of the Antichrist and the other one is waiting for the return of Christ Jesus.




And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Well, I don't agree with you here. It seems like you're arguing that therefore everyone who keeps the command patiently will escape the same. Yet, you're maybe not taking into account Jesus and Peter's conversation about John in John 21. Jesus had just informed Peter that Peter would be a martyr, so Peter wanted to know if John would also be a martyr. Jesus replies:

Jesus said to him, “If I desire that he stay until I come, what is that to you? You follow me.” (John 21:22 WEB)

So is every Christian a martyr? No. Is every Christian going through the tribulation? Obviously not. But that doesn't mean we're all escaping it either.

Well it's quiet obvious that since God gave the last Prophecy to happen, is what brings the end to the Tribulation, then it's quiet obvious that all Christians will go thru the Tribulation. Seeing God gave the last Prophecy that happens, which brings the end to the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus can not return until the Last Prophecy happens, Which brings the end of the Tribulation to it's end.

 

[74x12]

Well it's quiet obvious that since God gave the last Prophecy to happen, is what brings the end to the Tribulation, then it's quiet obvious that all Christians will go thru the Tribulation. Seeing God gave the last Prophecy that happens, which brings the end to the Tribulation and the return of Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus can not return until the Last Prophecy happens, Which brings the end of the Tribulation to it's end.

All Christians who are alive will go through the tribulation. Many will have been dead already.

 

[Faithofchristian]

All Christians who are alive will go through the tribulation. Many will have been dead already.

What do you mean by , Many will have been dead already ? What exactly do you mean by dead ?