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Featured The Last Prophecy of Revelation

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Faithofchristian, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Your right again, The Wrath of God's does not come on God's elect people.

    People who believe this are taught by man's teachings and doctrines, unto which Christ Jesus condemn in the book of Matthew 15:7--9.
     
  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Guess I'll miss the great event since it will occur on the other side of the world.

    Christ comes from the word Chrism.(anointing of the Holy Spirit). Catholic (orthodox) thought changed it to oil and balsam. (material).

    Just like communion with God spiritually. Bread/flesh (Word) and Wine/blood (Spirit) became tangible so the church could dictate it.
     
  3. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    My guess it was written as a confusion test. As soon as someone tried to interpret it they knew they were dealing with confusion. So you attempting to interpret would in the old days a sure sign of confusion!!!! So you believe the writers are lost in fantasy?
     
  4. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    The Rapture got it's start back in the 1830's
    By Margaret McDonald a member of the brethren church in Glasgow, Scotland,
    Went into a trance at a church meeting and said that Christ could come tonight, Then it was further taught, If Christ did come tonight, this would be the end of the age at which time the church would be
    "Secretly Raptured"

    Therefore the Rapture is no more than man's teachings and doctrines and has nothing at all to with Christ or what Paul had written.
     
  5. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    So how many interpretations are there? Is your interpretation the sole universial interpretation? I actually do have a degree in theology literally. Now I know it's nonsense itself but it does serve some purposes.... So what exactly are you basing how you understand the passages just by reading? Did you just pick the text up and are what interpreting it independent?

    Clearly signs of mental disorder in what you are saying. That's OK it's normal in this culture. Atheists can have some same issues. Stop watching TV posting on religious forums. Start spending lots of time away out in nature breathing getting a reality check away. and don't start back on drugs or alcohol. Who knows maybe in 30 years you will start to understand the text actually.
     
    #25 David T, Dec 22, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  6. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so you say, that you have a degree in theology literally.

    But yet, You haven't gave nothing, What the last Prophecy is, That God has given in the book of Revelation, But yet you go babbling on. But nothing about what the Thread is about.

    It's not my interpretation, it's what God has given in the book of Revelation, which has nothing to do with interpretation. It's very plain and simple to see. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

    So if I may ask you to explain what does wormwood means in Revelation 8:10,11.
    Verse 10--"And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of rivers, and upon the fountains of waters"

    So who is the great star that fell from heaven, who are the rivers and the fountain of waters to Repsents ?

    Verse 11--"And the name of the star is called wormwood, and the third part of waters became wormwood, and many men died of the waters, Because they were made bitter"

    Who is the star that's called wormwood, Who is that ?
    What does the waters Repsents?

    Now Remember that you said, You have a degree in Theology.
    So it should be easy for you to tell, Who does the star that is called wormwood and the rivers and fountains of waters Represents?

    Now also Remember that God has foretold in the book of Revelation who all these things Repsents in the book of Revelation.
     
    #26 Faithofchristian, Dec 22, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  7. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    They escape God’s wrath described as the seven seals (Revelation 6:1-17, 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Revelation 8:6-9:21; 11:15-19), and seven bowls/vials (Revelation 16:1-21)

    You are correct that the wrath is not for God’s followers but to bring those who are not his followers to repentance (Revelation 9:4).

    Jesus talked about this himself:

    37 And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. 40 Then shall two men be in the field; one is taken, and one is left: 41 two women shall be grinding at the mill; one is taken, and one is left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not on what day your Lord cometh. (Matthew 24) ​

    and again we are told:

    10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. (Revelation 3)​

    Yes Jesus did pray that and for good reason. There was much work to be done in order to bring the full measure of gentiles in. Remember though what he states later in that same prayer:

    Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world (John 17:24)​

    We’ll always have folks waiting for the rapture, just as we have folks who can’t wait for Armageddon. They were there at the time of Jesus and they’re here with us now. We’ve seen the Taborites and 1430, the Anabaptists with 1533 or 1536 (depending on which source you read), Archbishop Ussher prediction of 1644, William Miller’s “Great Disappointment” of the mid 1800’s, the Jehovah Witness’s 1914, and Harold Camping’s May and October of 2011.

    In any event pre-tribs would only be waiting 7 years and mid-tribs 3 ½ until the millennial rule.

    I see this not unlike the question asked at Luke 18:8

    “…However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”​

    The entire world faces the wrath of Satan and his demons now (Job 1:7; 1 John 5:19) but a lot of this is held back (1 John 5:18, 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Revelation 9:14). Rather than give in to temptation, Christ's followers are asked to fight the good fight and see the race through until the end (2 Timothy 4:7; Acts 20: 23-24).
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Paul said the rapture takes place at the "last trumpet". So that would obviously be the 7th trumpet of Revelation. 1 Cor. 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: (Young's Literal Translation)
    Good question. Who did the flood take away though? The righteous or the sinners? It took away the sinners. This is not necessarily about the rapture. If you read what Jesus said in Luke 17:20-37; the disciples ask Him "where Lord?" (because He keeps saying people will be taken away) Jesus reply is "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." So, that to me, means that the people being "taken" are the ones who die. The ones left are left alive. So, that doesn't describe a rapture to me. Can you prove in the face of the evidence in Luke 17 that this is indeed a rapture?

    What we know for sure is that was prophecy to one assembly in Asia Minor. Can you prove it is prophecy to every Christian?
    We know that elsewhere in the book of Revelation we see many saints beheaded and the Antichrist making war against the saints. So who are they?
    Furthermore, in 2 Thess. 2, Paul seems to indicate that Jesus will not return and we will not be gathered to Him until the antichrist is revealed.

    Eventually yes. Yet, what Jesus previously said in that prayer is not negated by this.

    Which makes the rest of us look not so smart to the outside world.

    True, we face temptation. Yet as you say Satan is restrained for now in many ways. He will be unleashed for a time and Apollyon will be unlocked from the pit. We'll have to face the wrath of satan and apollyon. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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  10. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Pre-tribulation rapture comes from this woman. Margaret MacDonald (visionary) - Wikipedia Which is where the idea of a what people think of when the rapture is mentioned.

    Rapture is not scripture though. The word does not exist in the bible. The idea of being whisked away at the last second to avoid trouble is nothing but a lofty fantasy.

    Our job as Christians is to be like Christ. Hence the name Christian or Christ-like. Our job is to help people, to endure, despite being belittled, whipped, mocked, spit on and then crucified. There is no free pass or easy way out for us. The wheat shall be separated from the chaff in due time.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Look I never said the Rapture is in the Scriptures.
    I have never believed in no Rapture Theory.

    So I don't know where your coming from.
    That's why I posted about that woman
    Margaret McDonald to show how the Rapture came about.

    Maybe you should read someone's post a little more slower, to see what they are saying.

    This is one of the reasons why Christ Jesus said in Matthew 24:5--"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many"
    Christ being abbreviated for Christian.
    Christ = Christian.

    Therefore those christians who are teaching this Rapture Theory or anything else that is not according to scriptures, are those christians that Christ Jesus is in reference to,
    As coming in his name, and shall deceive many. In Matthew 24:5.
     
    #31 Faithofchristian, Dec 24, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
  12. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I know. I wasn't attacking or accusing you. Just putting the message out there for all to read. All is good. :D
     
  13. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ok, were all good √
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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  15. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Really :rolleyes:? So exactly what does harpagisometha (1 Thessalonians 4:17) mean to you?

    That's not exactly true.

    The word "rapture" is derived from the Latin raptus, which simply means "a carrying off". It's the equivalent of harpazo in Koine Greek.

    Rapture eschatology is divided into 3 major categories:

    1. Those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture (or carrying off)
    2. Those who believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, and
    3. Those who believe in a post-tribulation rapture.​

    I'm sure there are plenty of mid and post tribs who will be glad to hear this.

    All that tells me is that you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. It does absolutely nothing to foster your prior claim that a Rapture doesn't occur.
     
  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Then you make a good argument for the Rapture, since we know God's wrath will eventually come.upon the entire world.

    Absolutely!

    People who believe Christ would leave Christians to endure the Tribulation have apparently forgotten about 1Thessalonians 5:9:

    “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
     
  17. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    The “last” trumpet does not necessarily mean the “7th” trumpet of Revelation.

    The Greek “eschatos” (“last”) can mean last in point of time or last in point of series.

    If Paul is referring to the 7th trumpet as the "last trumpet", where does the trumpet that sounds "after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:31) fit into your eschatology?

    Secondly, it would have been difficult for the Thessalonians to associate the trumpet described to them with the trumpet in Revelation, since Revelation had not even been written at the time of Paul's epistle to them.

    Third, your analysis would have to reconcile a 7th trumpet that lasts for days and Paul 's description of a trumpet that lasts for a moment.

    Lastly, even if by some chance the trumpets are the same, it does not negate the rapture. In fact, those who believe in a mid and post tribulation claim precisely this.

    I see a number of problems with such an analysis.

    First, if the people, “taken”, are sinners, where are they being taken to, and how does this fit into your overall eschatology? Are you arguing for a rapture of the unrighteous?

    Secondly, if by “ taken” you mean “death” or “die”…on what basis are you interpreting ”taken” in such a manner? The Greek παραλαμβάνω (paralambano) is used 7 times by Luke and 50 times in the New Testament. Not once, anywhere, does it mean “death”:

    Paralambano: to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).​

    Neither am I aware of any Greek scholar who equates “taken” with “dying” or “death”.

    The letters sent to the congregations are didactic and applicable to all Christians.

    If you believe this was a prophesy to one assembly in Asia Minor, and thus not applicable to every Christian, then I see no reason for some to believe only Ephesians compose the actual body of Christ, , only the Corinthians saw things through a “glass darkly”, and that 1st Peter was addressed only to the Jewish exiles dispersed throughout the Roman empire. As such the New Testament would not be directed to Americans, Australians, French, Bolivians or others Christian nationalities living in our modern age.

    I am not a proponent of replacement theology so I believe they are Jewish Christians.

    Correct, but I’m not seeing how this impacts post, mid or even pre-tribulation eschatology.

    That would be correct, but I’m not arguing John 17:24 negates John 17:15. All I’m saying is that John 17:15 cannot be seen to negate the rapture in lieu of John 17:24 because they are not mutually exclusive.

    Agreed.

    Also agreed. The tribulation period will be full of horrors…the scope of which the world has never seen before.
     
  18. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    This idea is pretty much debunked in the same article.

    You are correct. “Rapture” is not in scripture anymore than “bible” appear in scripture. However harpazo (ἁρπάζω) does appear in scripture

    See above. Rapture is simply an English term for harpazo (pronounced har-pad’-zo) which means:
    1. to seize, carry off by force
    2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
    3. to snatch out or away
    4. pluck
    So while claiming the word “rapture” doesn’t appear in scripture is technically correct, any allusion that the theological concept can be dismissed because it doesn’t appear in scripture would be incorrect as harpazo appears 13 times in New Testament scripture.
     
  19. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I'll leave you with Ezekiel 13 20-23

    20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

    21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

    22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

    23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the Lord

    Sorry brother there is no free pass. We (the flesh that yet lives on the day) shall suffer the same trials, tribulations and temptations that the heathens do, all the way to the bitter sweet end.
     
  20. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    #40 Faithofchristian, Dec 25, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
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