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The Lake Of Fire

FineLinen

Well-Known Member
Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent

How shallow is the common view of “fire” as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of…

“Life”…Isa. 4:5

“Purification”…Matt. 3:3

“Atonement”…Lev. 16:27

“Transformation”…2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God’s fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, “aflame to the very tips of our fingers.” And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God’s Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God’s wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a “fire unfolding itself” (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and “the appearance of fire.” (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ’s eyes are a flame of “fire” (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of “fire” are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said “to go before God,” His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God’s ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4…Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes–call it, if you please, a paradox–in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, “Thy God is a consuming Fire,” and “Thy God is a merciful God” (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)–words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God’s cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)–suggestive words. And, so again, “By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh.” (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by “fire.” (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often “fire” is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in “fire:” God answers Gideon by “fire;” and David by “fire.” (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by “fire;” and in “fire” Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of “fire.” So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by “fire.” (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of “fire” God gave His law. And in “fire” the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that “fire,” like judgment, so far from being the sinner’s portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God’s judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is “already kindled,” always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. “I am come to send fire on the earth,” for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the “fire is to try every man’s work.” He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned “so as by fire,” by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, “He that is near Me is near fire,” expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work “like a refiner’s fire.” And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that “our God is a consuming Fire,” i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but “Our God is a consuming Fire”–a consuming Fire, “by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed.”

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that “coals of fire” go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are “coals of fire” to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious “fires” of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner’s doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these “fires” not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise–

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-
 

FineLinen

Well-Known Member
"I think we need to relinquish the persistent misunderstanding that the LOF in any way represents retributive punishment. It’s there to assist people who haven’t been able to overcome their sins in Christ - sin grips them like a mortgage. It may feel like punishment, because those strongholds of satan are being destroyed, and (like being born again) we’ll come face to face with the truth. I imagine the devil will be tormented for ages because he’s built his entire false identity on rejecting God, and will vainly try to hang on to that. My, what justice it will be to see him truly repent and emerge as an angel restored by such scandalously amazing grace. Gloria in excelsis Deo!

Another thing about the pernicious nature of ECT is that it makes it impossible to truly love God. Even the greatest of saints who is an ECTer serves in some way for ‘ten shekels and a shirt’ - how can you love with a gun at your head? At best it’s a case of Stockholm Syndrome, identifying with one’s oppressor! We see this a lot - Christians praying harder, missioning harder, fasting harder, gospeling harder - like they’re trying to avoid the ‘cut’ for the football team. But is that the way, is that the narrow path, or just a lot of gonging and clanging, and rattling of chains to prove their freedom?

So I believe the LOF actually represents HOPE and assurance for all of us (we all struggle with thorns in the flesh): God’s not going to let sin rule! The cross was the guarantee of His covenant of UR, the LOF is its final delivery mechanism. Consider that none but one is worthy to even open the Book of Life. How many names do you think are found in it at that time, and how many will need full baptism of fire? So…first one in’s a rotten egg!

Forgive me if I’m not expressing my view in a systematic way, I hope you find it somewhat coherent. Do you think it’s possible to love God and hold to ECT? -Ben Clemens-
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
The Lake Of Fire

1. We will consider all passages of Scripture speaking of the Lake.

2. What is the Lake of Fire?

3. What is not the Lake of Fire.

4. What is the defining ingredient of the Lake.

5. Compare our God the Consuming Fire & the Lake of Fire.
Ok, now, you do have an argument. However God isn't called Gehenna, which also we have of course 'lake of fire' also. God isn't called that, and combined with speculation, going to say no, on this one.

Who do we default to?

Jesus.

What references does He give? You can find them in Scripture.

God is surrounded by Angels, has a Throne, so forth.

Going to say no on that idea, that you presented.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Dear Leov: Indeed it does & as we proceed in this theme will be evident.

In contemplating the Lake we shall consider #3 first.

What the Lake is NOT=

Hell or death.

The Scripture declares "death and hell" terminated in the Lake.

Please see Rev. 20:14

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire....">>>>

Yes, there is more>>>>>

"Which IS the second death."
The word used for -annihilation- doesn't mean the same thing as when we use it. That is why Scripture doesn't contradict itself, also.

It means 'eternal annihilation' note the difference? It's really bad,

And noted elsewhere in Scripture, 'everlasting'.

So, no, it doesn't mean annihilation like how we use the word.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Dear Snake: Perhaps you can tell F.L. the difference between our God who is Consuming Fire & the Lake whose primary essence is theion rooted in Theos?
From a literalistic standpoint, verse literalism, as I said, you have an argument. I don't believe you've formatted your argument to complete presentation, but it's close enough.

So, just starting with 'our god'. Ok, well we know that our god, or I'll say my god, Biblically speaking, is a personal God. It isn't even vague, this God, Jesus included, wants more than general honour, ie the sacrifice, so forth.

We are already outside of 'literal lake of fire', and we haven't even considered the various verses for the argument. Ok fine, so, perhaps there is a personification via the persons, [who aren't literally a lake of fire. Then, we compare books. We can rule out anything that says, 'god cast them into the lake of fire', because then de facto the god is being portrayed outside of that description.

Taking Gehenna, which they used in the New Testament, that isn't Theo. So why not. Why didn't they just say, 'god the lake of fire', so forth. So, we are left with book comparison, and delineating what is meant. Which is fine
 

FineLinen

Well-Known Member
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Damnable, Damnation, And Damned - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible
Dictionary


Blasphemy=

BLASPHEMY By Jonathan Mitchell
 
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