The King's Jews v. The Pope's Jews: The Great Levirate Showdown

[Harel13]

Yesterday someone sent me a link to a post on Rabbi Shlomo Aviner's Facebook page where his assistant had typed out an answer Rabbi Aviner had given during a Q&A session. The rabbi had been asked a question regarding the late Queen of Britain and what followed was a very fascinating summary of how Jews had a hand in forming the current royal lineage during the time of King Henry VIII. I can't get the story out of my head. It was a serious subject at the time but it seems so hilarious now.

For less relevancy, I'm not translating the entire post, just the portion regarding Henry VIII:

"500 years ago Henry VIII King of England decided to separate from his wife Catherine of Aragon because they had been married for 14 years that had been filled with miscarriages, save for one daughter, Mary. He was convinced that the marriage was cursed and resolved to marry Anne Boleyn. Problem was, divorce was not allowed according to the Catholic religion.
And so, he turned to Pope Clement VII, requesting he nullify his marriage after the act.​

He claimed that Catherine had been married prior to his brother Arthur, who had died shortly after. And then it had been decided that the new king, Henry, would marry her, to strengthen the British-Spanish treaty.
The Church had been against that marriage, because it says in the Torah that a widow cannot marry her husband's brother (Leviticus 18:16). However, according to Catholicism, if the marriage hadn't being consummated and the wife was still a virgin, such a marriage would be allowed. Of course, according to Jewish law, there is no such thing, but this is what they believed. So at the time, it had been necessary to check whether Catherine was still a virgin. But Isabella of Castile, Queen of Spain and Catherine's mother, pressured the then-Pope Julius II to exempt her daughter from the checkup, and so the marriage had been approved.​

Now Henry turned to the pope and claimed that the approval had been unlawful, and that when he had married Catherine, she had not been a virgin. But it was all for naught, because Pope Clement VII refused to nullify the marriage, and so came about "The King's Great Matter".
Henry VIII wasn't about to call it quits and declared that the pope was unqualified and was ignoring an explicit verse, that a widow cannot marry her husband's brother. But the pope likewise wasn't going to surrender and turned to rabbis learned in the Talmud, and per their advice, used the following argument: Catherine and Henry's marriage was a levirate marriage, which allows a childless widow to marry her husband's brother. Therefore, the marriage is legitimate.​

Henry VIII also decided to turn to learned rabbis. Problem was, there were no local rabbis in Britain because all of the Jews been expelled some 200 years prior. So he sent agents to Italy to ask some Italian rabbis. They turned to Rabbi Eliyahu Menachem Chalfon of Venice, who explained that after the Cherem (censure) of Rabbeinu Gershom, the law of levirate marriages was no longer acted upon, and people instead turned to Chalitzah (nullification of the obligation of performing a levirate marriage). Thus Henry argued that the marriage had never been legitimate. Of course, it must be said that according to Jewish law, this is not correct (i.e., if a levirate marriage does take place, it is legitimate (and though fairly-to-highly rare over the past millennium, some have taken place, even in modern times)). In any case, this was the king's argument, but the pope refused to surrender and again turned to learned rabbis, who told him that the Cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom was only relevant to Ashkenazis, but Queen Catherine, being Spanish, was Sephardic (Spanish). And so the marriage was actually legitimate.​

So Henry also turned again to the rabbis he had been in contact with and asked them what to do. They told him: Duh, get a divorce. Why? Because according to the Torah people can get divorced. When Henry learned that according to the Torah a person can get divorced, he attacked the pope for being facetious with him and for picking and choosing from the Torah only what suited him, such as banning in-law marriage but also banning divorce. He decided that the pope was an unlearned ignoramus and decided to separate from the Catholic Church. A year later, the new Archbishop of Canterbury announced the nullification of the marriage."
​

As an aside, I checked the story and it seems that this is only one version of what happened. Some more links with discussions, including different versions:
https://www.oxfordchabad.org/templa...-the-Rabbis-of-Venice-in-the-16th-Century.htm
The Italian Rabbi Who Tried to Talk Henry VIII Out of His First Divorce » Mosaic
https://www.bethelmc.org/2010/03/reading-leviticus-with-henry-viii/

That there was some background involvement of Isabella I is very interesting to me, because in Jewish history she's considered evil for taking part in the expulsion of the Spanish Jews in 1492. It seems that the Jews got some form of revenge against her daughter, at the very least (though of course, this probably also had ramifications regarding the British-Spanish treaty).

 

[metis]

Yesterday someone sent me a link to a post on Rabbi Shlomo Aviner's Facebook page where his assistant had typed out an answer Rabbi Aviner had given during a Q&A session. The rabbi had been asked a question regarding the late Queen of Britain and what followed was a very fascinating summary of how Jews had a hand in forming the current royal lineage during the time of King Henry VIII. I can't get the story out of my head. It was a serious subject at the time but it seems so hilarious now.

For less relevancy, I'm not translating the entire post, just the portion regarding Henry VIII:

"500 years Henry VIII King of England decided to separate from his wife Catherine of Aragon because they had been married for 14 years that had been filled with miscarriages, save for one daughter, Mary. He was convinced that the marriage was cursed and resolved to marry Anne Boleyn. Problem was, divorce was not allowed according to the Catholic religion.
And so, he turned to to Pope Clement VII, requesting he nullify his marriage after the act.​

He claimed that Catherine had been married prior to his brother Arthur, who had died shortly after. And then it had been decided that the new king, Henry, would marry her, to strengthen the British-Spanish treaty.
The Church had been against that marriage, because it says in the Torah that a widow cannot marry her husband's brother (Leviticus 18:16). However, according to Catholicism, if the marriage hadn't being consummated and the wife was still a virgin, such a marriage would be allowed. Of course, according to Jewish law, there is no such thing, but this is what they believed. So at the time, it had been necessary to check whether Catherine was still a virgin. But Isabella of Castile, Queen of Spain and Catherine's mother, pressured the then-pope Julius II to exempt her daughter from the checkup, and so the marriage had been approved.​

Now Henry turned to the pope and claimed that the approval had been unlawful, and that when he had married Catherine, she had not been a virgin. But it was all for naught, because Pope Clement VII refused to nullify the marriage, and so came about "The King's Great Matter".
Henry VIII wasn't about to call it quits and declared that the pope was unqualified and was ignoring an explicit verse, that a widow cannot marry her husband's brother. But the pope likewise wasn't going to surrender and turned to rabbis learned in the Talmud, and per their advice, used the following argument: Catherine and Henry's marriage was a levirate marriage, which allows a childless widow to marry her husband's brother. Therefore, the marriage is legitimate.​

Henry VIII also decided to turn to learned rabbis. Problem was, there were no local rabbis in Britain because all of the Jews been expelled some 200 years prior. So he sent agents to Italy to ask some Italian rabbis. They turned to Rabbi Eliyahu Menachem Chalfon of Venice, who explained that after the Cherem (censure) of Rabbeinu Gershom, the law of levirate marriages was no longer acted upon, and people instead turned to Chalitzah (nullification of the obligation of performing a levirate marriage). Thus Henry argued that the marriage had never been legitimate. Of course, it must be said that according to Jewish law, this is not correct (i.e., if a levirate marriage does take place, it is legit (and though highly rare in the past millennium, some have taken place, even in modern times)). In any case, this was the king's argument, but the pope refused to surrender and again turned to learned rabbis, who told him that the Cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom was only relevant to Ashkenazis, but Queen Catherine, being Spanish, was Sephardic (Spanish). And so the marriage was actually legitimate.​

So Henry also turned again to the rabbis he had been in contact with and asked them what to do. They told him: Duh, get a divorce. Why? Because according to the Torah people can get divorced. When Henry learned that according to the Torah a person can get divorced, he attacked the pope for being facetious with him and for picking and choosing from the Torah only what suited him, such as banning in-law marriage but also banning divorce. He decided that the pope was an unlearned ignoramus and decided to separate from the Catholic Church. A year later, the new Archbishop of Canterbury announced the nullification of the marriage."
​

As an aside, I checked the story and it seems that this is only one version of what happened. Some more links with discussions, including different versions:
https://www.oxfordchabad.org/templa...-the-Rabbis-of-Venice-in-the-16th-Century.htm
The Italian Rabbi Who Tried to Talk Henry VIII Out of His First Divorce » Mosaic
https://www.bethelmc.org/2010/03/reading-leviticus-with-henry-viii/

That there was some background involvement of Isabella I is very interesting to me, because in Jewish history she's considered evil for taking part in the expulsion of the Spanish Jews in 1492. It seems that the Jews got some form of revenge against her daughter, at the very least (though of course, this probably also had ramifications regarding the British-Spanish treaty).

In my signature statement at the bottom of my posts, I mention "St. Thomas More Student Parish" whereas I did my undergrad studies at WMU, and the man it was named after is one who lost his head [literally] because he refused to grant Henry VIII a divorce. His story is amazing and was made into a movie entitled "A Man for All Seasons" in the 1960's. He, and what he did, has been very much an inspiration to me, and for more than one reason.

Your post above "brought me back" to both that parish and my readings on More, so thanks. Recently, my wife and I have watched three different series on this time period on PBS, and I still find it all quite interesting.

Take care.

 

[River Sea]

When did the Sephardic Jews felt threatened by Spain., What did the Queen of Spain and Catherine's mother think of the Sephardic Jews and Hindus?

 

[Harel13]

When did the Sephardic Jews felt threatened by Spain., What did the Queen of Spain and Catherine's mother think of the Sephardic Jews and Hindus?

The Queen of Spain is infamous for hating Jews so much that she, together with her husband the King, expelled all of them from Spain and also pressured the King of Portugal to do the same (which he did).
As for Hindus, I don't know what she thought of them but I do know the Spanish monarchy and government were interested in finding a new sailing route to India, and so that same year, 1492, they sent Christopher Columbus to map a new route. Instead, he found South America.

 

[rational experiences]

Book readers become fearfully paranoid about bible status.

No human ever owned a title in earths nature. Meaning of the teaching is humans using self Idolating titles cause a lot of abuse via incorrect advice.

No man is God.

Hierarchy God....God O the stone throne sits empty in the space womb.

No mother...no father theme...just a rock.

Man who owns new legal order was a brotherhood of healers. In Rome new order.

Monks. They live inside walled area. Celibate. Tending medical gardens. Served spoke and only orated to the public in healing administration's.

All humans born equal.

Sisters lived in their own quarters as nurses. Food administered as family were poor. Gardens walled keeping food safety to be shared.

Served mutually as the first medical society. Medical building not a temple it was a church.

Said CH equals CH.

Hence no temple rebuilding had been the edict.

Only a church should be placed on holy gods earth ground.

Hence church teaching taken seriously about old Judas...jewish order who allowed Rome to rebuild science temple. Agreed to self family sacrifice and European life sacrificed.

Stonehenge and henges stones used in many places .. humans hurt by caused temple fallout of the past.

Jew Rome builders had promised safety to countries using ground stone circle methods. New theology was disproven. Life Still gained attacks.

No temple allowed. Jewish community wanted temples.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

When did the Sephardic Jews felt threatened by Spain., What did the Queen of Spain and Catherine's mother think of the Sephardic Jews and Hindus?

The edict to expel all Jews from Spain came in 1492.

Not all Jews left. Some feigned conversion and tried to stay behaving as Catholics.

The Spanish Inquisition primarily concerned itself with rooting out these fake Catholics. It's not entirely rational in my opinion, because the Inquisition only had jurisdiction over baptized Catholics, and the deceit used by these Converso Jews would have rendered their baptisms invalid.

I don't imagine there were any Hindus in Spain in those days.

 

[pearl]

And all this time I thought the squabble with Henry VIII concerned his wives' inability to give him a son. Poor thing didn't know it was he who determined the sex of the child.
That aside, your post was extremely interesting.

 

[rational experiences]

You forget once all nations in nature spirit owned the same bio type human father mother.

Changed when the star hit earth again sacrificed bio mind body....warning never believe a suns star is holy. Don't be like Muslims.

All Egyptians first no longer heed once there was no Islamic no Muslim no Jews. All same family culture.

Family bad men enslaved family is our humans teaching. It was never culture versus culture. Rich men historic is the chosen criminal behaviour. Hypocrite teaching.

So jews built science technology temples and were the known skilled technical advice...as were once Egyptians too. Remembered.

Ignored humans true historic advice.

The Jews migrated to the countries Rome Jews had wanted technology supported...built the henges to relate to pyramid temple science. All those men once in Egyptian culture.

All artefacts depict it true.

Jews who knew technology evil began the Christian teachings first. Just the slave family.

New theme in technology was knowing they could not use the old UFO ark caused melded transmitter relay review it blew up. Knew.

Why Jews went to England and other countries as migrated technical advisors.

Why those Jews were never allowed to return to their nation to rebuild the science technology temple ever again.

Not understanding today the rational reason why those Jews were not allowed to return to the holy land. The enslaved family were who now only reverenced gods earth and life mourning dead in a holy temple.

No building of science. Was stated.

Why they are in America now assisting the rich history of Satanists. I want to find own the grail power again...nuclear.

Why bankers with Hitler's scheme tried to get technical secrets out of the Jewish people by threat of their historic DNA murder. To have the technology returned.

Claim your are stopping our gain of the Egyptian wisdom in your current mind and body presence is how evil the human deceit is.

Those humans didn't know any old technology.

Is how evil the human story is as the quest for the grail power.

 

[River Sea]

The Queen of Spain is infamous for hating Jews so much that she, together with her husband the King, expelled all of them from Spain and also pressured the King of Portugal to do the same (which he did).
As for Hindus, I don't know what she thought of them but I do know the Spanish monarchy and government were interested in finding a new sailing route to India, and so that same year, 1492, they sent Christopher Columbus to map a new route. Instead, he found South America.

If I'm understanding., First Christopher Columbus went to South America., however I learn from @William T. Hathaway that the Sephardic Jews arrived In America before English and French arrived to America., do you think so too.,

Because Christopher Columbus Italian explorer is in south America., so has a lot of traveling upward before arriving to America., while the Sephardic Jews arrived to Mexico so has less traveling to do to reach America, and so the Sephardic Jews arrived in America first. While the English and French later landed on the eastern side of America - however the Sephardic Jews arrived in America first, do you think so?

The first European settlers in what is now the USA weren’t English Puritans or French fur trappers but Sephardic Jews. Before the Mayflower sailed to America, Jews had fled the Spanish Inquisition and settled in what is now Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Although they were eventually absorbed into the mainstream culture, they built a real Jewish life here.

 

[Harel13]

If I'm understanding., First Christopher Columbus went to South America., however I learn from @William T. Hathaway that the Sephardic Jews arrived In America before English and French arrived to America., do you think so too.,

Because Christopher Columbus Italian explorer is in south America., so has a lot of traveling upward before arriving to America., while the Sephardic Jews arrived to Mexico so has less traveling to do to reach America, and so the Sephardic Jews arrived in America first. While the English and French later landed on the eastern side of America - however the Sephardic Jews arrived in America first, do you think so?

I answered your first question because it was loosely related to the topic of the thread, but this subject is not, so I would appreciate not dragging it on. Feel free to create a separate thread on the subject and I might stop by and reply to it. Thanks.