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The Kingdom; hard to envision?

capumetu

Active Member
Yes, but would humans still have struggles to overcome?

I am not sure how to answer that sir, I honestly do not know. Most of the new world would simply be opinion and speculation. We know that we will receive new instruction. Adam and Eve were told to name the animals and populate the earth.

One thing we do know; whatever comes we know it will be satisfying, as the Bible teaching about the future states this:
(Psalm 145:16) 16 You are opening your hand And satisfying the desire of every living thing.

This has to be prophetic, as this has never occurred since it was penned in the Bible.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I am not sure how to answer that sir, I honestly do not know. Most of the new world would simply be opinion and speculation. We know that we will receive new instruction. Adam and Eve were told to name the animals and populate the earth.

One thing we do know; whatever comes we know it will be satisfying, as the Bible teaching about the future states this:
(Psalm 145:16) 16 You are opening your hand And satisfying the desire of every living thing.

This has to be prophetic, as this has never occurred since it was penned in the Bible.

Fair enough. You can only explain using the information you haver available.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Imagine a world without wars, without crime, poverty, or even sickness and death. Virtually impossible right? Yet that is what Jehovah promises, and just as sure as His existence it will come about.
I can imagine a world without wars, crime, or poverty.

I can imagine a world without sickness and death, it is called the spiritual world or heaven.

Yes, that is what God promises, and just as sure as His existence it will come about.

God does not promise a future earth where humans never get sick or die, I consider that a complete fantasy.
No, that is not in the Bible.
 

capumetu

Active Member
I can imagine a world without wars, crime, or poverty.

I can imagine a world without sickness and death, it is called the spiritual world or heaven.

Yes, that is what God promises, and just as sure as His existence it will come about.

God does not promise a future earth where humans never get sick or die, I consider that a complete fantasy.
No, that is not in the Bible.

Ps 37:29 Mat 6:10; Rev 21:3,4 just to name a few maam. May I ask why you think God created the earth, and why the Bible only records 144,000 humans will leave the earth to live in heaven? Rev 14:3
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"144,000" is likely symbolic because it could not have been written that way. Instead, it is 12 12's 1000's [12 x 12 x 1000].

"!2" stands for "completion", "1000" stands for "great numbers", thus 144,000 can be translated as "completion upon completion and in great numbers".
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: God does not promise a future earth where humans never get sick or die, I consider that a complete fantasy.
No, that is not in the Bible.


Ps 37:29 Mat 6:10; Rev 21:3,4 just to name a few maam. May I ask why you think God created the earth, and why the Bible only records 144,000 humans will leave the earth to live in heaven? Rev 14:3
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Rev 21:3-4 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Not one of these verses say that God promised a future earth where humans never get sick or die.

No one of these verses say that only 144,000 humans will leave the earth to live in heaven and the others will remain on earth and live forever.

Psalm 37:29 says that the righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever, but it does not say that the righteous will rise from their graves and dwell therein forever. Therefore it is to be assumed it is referring to the righteous that are actually LIVING on the earth at the time of inheritance.

Matthew 6:10 says that the kingdom will come to earth as it is in heaven and I already told you that is what I believe will happen. Jesus told us to pray for the kingdom to come, Jesus never said that He was bringing the kingdom to earth. As I told you before, I believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth, by following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah laid out..

Rev 21:3-4 means that there will be no more sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain because the all that will no more exist in the Kingdom of God on earth. That there shall be no more death means there will be no more spiritual death, it does not mean that there will be no more physical death. There will always be physical death because our bodies are mortal.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Will only 144000 go to heaven?

Based on their understanding of scriptures such as Revelation 14:1-4, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.
Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation - Wikipedia

What reason do you have to believe that only 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven? What other scriptures say that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven?

Who will enter heaven according to the Bible?

The World English Bible translates the passage as: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will. enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who. does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21 - Wikipedia

I am sure you realize that there are many other interpretations of Revelation 14:3 . Why is your interpretation correct whereas the others are incorrect?

Who are the 144000 in Revelation 14?

One understanding is that the 144,000 are recently converted Jewish evangelists sent out to bring sinners to Jesus Christ during the seven year tribulation period. Preterists believe they are Jewish Christians, sealed for deliverance from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
144,000 - Wikipedia

When God delivered the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt and led them safely through the Red Sea, Moses and the Hebrews sang about the experience (Exodus 15). They praised God for redeeming them from the clutches of Pharaoh. It seems reasonable that the song mentioned in Revelation 14:3 focuses on God's power in purchasing the 144,000 by the blood of the Lamb and protecting them through the tribulation.
What does Revelation 14:3 mean?

Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

Answer:
The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation 7:4, “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” This passage comes in an interlude between the judgment of the sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12–17) and the opening of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1).

How one answers the question “who are the 144,000?” depends on which interpretive approach one takes to the book of Revelation. The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

Who are the 144,000? | GotQuestions.org

Conclusion:

The pattern in Revelation is not new. All throughout the Bible we see God waits patiently to give everyone ample opportunity to repent. The 144,000 represent those who have been vindicated by God’s Judgment on earth. They are the result of God’s Judgment on His church which happens before His Judgment on the world. (1 Peter 4:17).

And since God’s Judgment has not happened yet, we know that no one is yet part of the 144,000.

How would one know if they are one of the 144,000 that is spoken of in the Holy Bible? - Quora
 

capumetu

Active Member
"144,000" is likely symbolic because it could not have been written that way. Instead, it is 12 12's 1000's [12 x 12 x 1000].

"!2" stands for "completion", "1000" stands for "great numbers", thus 144,000 can be translated as "completion upon completion and in great numbers".

We believe it is literal sir. Are you aware of why they go to heaven?
 

capumetu

Active Member
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Rev 21:3-4 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Not one of these verses say that God promised a future earth where humans never get sick or die.
(Isaiah 33:24) . . .And no resident will say: “I am sick.”. . . Read the Revelation one again, death as well will be gone.



No one of these verses say that only 144,000 humans will leave the earth to live in heaven and the others will remain on earth and live forever. Rev 14:3 Ps 37:29 Rev 21:3,4 as well takes place on the earth as there has not ever been death in heaven.

Psalm 37:29 says that the righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever, but it does not say that the righteous will rise from their graves and dwell therein forever. Therefore it is to be assumed it is referring to the righteous that are actually LIVING on the earth at the time of inheritance.

Yes sir, when Jesus removes the wicked and ushers in the Kingdom, those will live on the earth as well as those of the second resurrection.

Matthew 6:10 says that the kingdom will come to earth as it is in heaven and I already told you that is what I believe will happen. Jesus told us to pray for the kingdom to come, Jesus never said that He was bringing the kingdom to earth. As I told you before, I believe that humans will build the Kingdom of God on earth, by following the blueprint instructions Baha’u’llah laid out..

Rev 21:3-4 means that there will be no more sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain because the all that will no more exist in the Kingdom of God on earth. That there shall be no more death means there will be no more spiritual death, it does not mean that there will be no more physical death. There will always be physical death because our bodies are mortal.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Will only 144000 go to heaven?

Based on their understanding of scriptures such as Revelation 14:1-4, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.
Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation - Wikipedia

What reason do you have to believe that only 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven? What other scriptures say that exactly 144,000 faithful Christians go to heaven?
Rev 14:3; 5:9,10
Who will enter heaven according to the Bible?

The World English Bible translates the passage as: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will. enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who. does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21 - Wikipedia

Kingdom originates in the heavens and ruled from the heavens
I am sure you realize that there are many other interpretations of Revelation 14:3 . Why is your interpretation correct whereas the others are incorrect?

Who are the 144000 in Revelation 14?

One understanding is that the 144,000 are recently converted Jewish evangelists sent out to bring sinners to Jesus Christ during the seven year tribulation period. Preterists believe they are Jewish Christians, sealed for deliverance from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
144,000 - WikipediaThey have been selectively gathered since Pentecost of the year 33 CE

When God delivered the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt and led them safely through the Red Sea, Moses and the Hebrews sang about the experience (Exodus 15). They praised God for redeeming them from the clutches of Pharaoh. It seems reasonable that the song mentioned in Revelation 14:3 focuses on God's power in purchasing the 144,000 by the blood of the Lamb and protecting them through the tribulation.
What does Revelation 14:3 mean?

They are the bride of Christ sir, the Israel of God

Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

Answer:
The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation 7:4, “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” This passage comes in an interlude between the judgment of the sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12–17) and the opening of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1).

How one answers the question “who are the 144,000?” depends on which interpretive approach one takes to the book of Revelation. The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Recommended Resource: Understanding End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware

Who are the 144,000? | GotQuestions.org

Conclusion:

The pattern in Revelation is not new. All throughout the Bible we see God waits patiently to give everyone ample opportunity to repent. The 144,000 represent those who have been vindicated by God’s Judgment on earth. They are the result of God’s Judgment on His church which happens before His Judgment on the world. (1 Peter 4:17).

And since God’s Judgment has not happened yet, we know that no one is yet part of the 144,000.

How would one know if they are one of the 144,000 that is spoken of in the Holy Bible? - Quora

To summarize sir, there are two groups of Christians anointed and other sheep. Jn 10:16 Those 144k anointed Christians will leave the earth to reside in heaven as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God, they will rule from heaven.

The majority will reside on earth Mat 5:5 as the earth was created for humans to live on, God did not change His mind. We are near the end of this system, soon the world will experience the greatest tribulation to ever happen, bringing us to the point of extinction Mat 24:22, then Jesus will come and remove the wicked, and then the Kingdom will come Mat 6:10

Next time keep it simple with a question or two, and we will move forward from there.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
To summarize sir, there are two groups of Christians anointed and other sheep. Jn 10:16 Those 144k anointed Christians will leave the earth to reside in heaven as Kings and Priests in the Kingdom of God, they will rule from heaven.

The majority will reside on earth Mat 5:5 as the earth was created for humans to live on, God did not change His mind. We are near the end of this system, soon the world will experience the greatest tribulation to ever happen, bringing us to the point of extinction Mat 24:22, then Jesus will come and remove the wicked, and then the Kingdom will come Mat 6:10.
What you believe is a complete fantasy, and it will never happen, but you are going to believe it no matter what because you have been brainwashed by your church.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

You have no way of knowing who the meek are, only God knows that. Moreover, that verse does not say that dead people are going to rise from their graves and live on earth forever, which is what you believe. You believe it because you WANT to live on earth forever, just like all the other JWs who look forward to living on earth forever.
Next time keep it simple with a question or two, and we will move forward from there.
How can "we" move forward when you have already decided what is true?

Here are my questions: Other Christians are reading the SAME Bible, so why do you believe ONLY your interpretation is correct? Why do you think that ALL the other Christians except the JWs are incorrect? What is your evidence that you are correct? If you have no evidence all you have is a personal opinion, a belief. Your belief is contradicted by many Bible verses. Anyone can make the Bible say what they want to believe by interpreting a few cherry picked verses the way they want to interpret them so they can believe what they want to believe.

I will leave you with this:

What are the odds that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right? - Quora

If we closely examine the objective data, the odds really don’t look good at all for Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Even if we make the colossal assumption that God exists and that He uses the bible as a means of communication with mankind, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have precious little in the way of sufficient evidence.

Let’s consider some of the evidence they present.

They claim that only Jehovah’s Witnesses teach what the bible says. They will then list certain doctrines they believe back up this claim, such as:-

God is not a trinity

Humans don’t have an immortal soul

Humans were to live forever on earth

Only Jehovah’s Witnesses preach God’s kingdom worldwide

The bible translates itself

Etc…

To back up these claims, Jehovah’s Witnesses will cherry-pick or highlight certain specific biblical passages. According to them, their beliefs are all backed up by the bible and they claim that only their religion teaches what the bible says. This gives them full confidence that their religion is right and they forge ahead with the self-assured conviction that they are being used by and approved by God, who is revealing the truth of the bible to them gradually.

The biggest problem with all of these grandiose claims is the fact that their evidence is a succession of assumptions based on mere human opinion. All the evidence they use is based on the subjective deductions of unguided, uninspired men.

For a start, the way they read and translate the bible is based on the assumption that it is to be taken literally. They then assume that certain parts of the bible are to be emphasised over other portions. From that weak foundation they construct their doctrines, all of them based on subjective human deduction, and as a result, Jehovah’s Witnesses make the bold proclamation that only they have the truth of the bible.

The problem with this methodology is that the evidence is unfalsifiable. Alternative religions will also claim they have the truth about the bible, but their conclusions contradict those of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is because they have a completely different set of assumptions that they construct their belief system on. There are other religions that don’t believe that the bible is the authority on what is true. Instead, they believe that God reveals His truth to his subjects using the Holy Spirit. They claim that the bible is there as a guide, and the literal translation of the bible is not necessary because God speaks to them directly.

However, the structure of these other religions is also based on human opinion and their beliefs are equally as unfalsifiable.

Unfalsifiable assertions, by their very nature, cannot be proved true or false. Therefore, it would be irrational to consider unfalsifiable claims as solid evidence. This is where the methodology of the Jehovah’s Witnesses breaks down. They have extremely low standards of evidence.

However, there are factors in the belief system of the Jehovah’s Witnesses that are verifiable and from these we can assess the validity of the claim that they have the correct understanding of the bible.

The bible is prophetic and prophesies can be tested objectively to ascertain whether they are true or not because they are falsifiable.

If the Jehovah’s Witnesses had a true understanding of scripture, and if they were indeed God’s organisation, the evidence would suggest that they would have an educated grasp and understanding of what they bible says regarding prophetic predictions. One would expect to find a succession of prophesies that uphold the teachings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. If their interpretation of the bible is correct, it would be reasonable to conclude that this would be true with regard to all aspects of the bible, including the prophetic elements.

So what does the evidence show?

Quite frankly, the evidence is completely against them. Every verifiable prophesy or prophetic speculation made by the Watchtower has failed. All attempts made by Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding the understanding of bible prophesy have failed. Their rendition of prophetic accounts of the bible have proved false time and time again.

Even though they use the same methodology to understand the prophetic biblical passages that they utilise for their doctrines and teachings, accuracy with regards to the prophetic aspect of the bible has consistently eluded them. They have no better understanding of the bible when it comes to prophesy than any other religion which promotes a different interpretation of the bible.

This means that the only part of the Jehovah’s Witnesses belief system that can truly be tested, ultimately proves that they are wrong… in spectacular fashion. A 100% failure rate is about as conclusive as it gets.

Their defence against this failure to understand the prophetic aspect of the bible is to deny they are prophets and also to make the excuse that they are imperfect and prone to making errors in their understanding.

However, this defence works against them. If they are not prophets then how do they know that their unfalsifiable doctrines are true? How can they know that their approach to the bible is correct, if their imperfect opinions result in erroneous bible understanding?

The ‘imperfect man’ argument might account for a small amount of inaccuracy in prophetic interpretation. But in practice it would seem that human imperfection completely overrides God’s efforts to convey His prophetic pronouncements. The ramification of this are huge.

If we were to adopt this excuse, sinful mankind would be excused from not heeding Jehovah’s warnings of imminent destruction, owing to the incompetent manner in which He communicates with humans. It would mean that God’s chosen people preach a nebulous, inaccurate, erroneous and contradictory message in the time period just before God is apparently about to take action to destroy anyone who doesn’t heed His warnings. Such a god would be wholly immoral… to be so utterly reckless as to execute people when the message from His chosen servants was so vague and inconsistent as well as completely inaccurate and false. However, I digress…

In conclusion, it’s easy to make the claim that your beliefs are based on the bible when there is no sure way to prove this one way or the other, apart from subjective opinion. However, if every verifiable prophetic interpretation and speculation of a religion proves to be false, which is the case with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, any other evidence used to back up unfalsifiable claims should be seriously called into question.

This leaves Jehovah’s Witnesses with no valid reason to believe they are correct, even if we make the assumption that the bible is true.

When it comes to the testable, objective and falsifiable aspects of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ beliefs, they are provably wrong. Therefore, the odds are completely against them when it comes to the rest of their dogma, considering that they use exactly the same methodology for interpreting doctrine from the bible as they do for prophesy.
 

capumetu

Active Member
How can "we" move forward when you have already decided what is true?

Here are my questions: Other Christians are reading the SAME Bible, so why do you believe ONLY your interpretation is correct? The Bible states clearly there is one faith, who worship in spirit and truth, and clearly identifies the faith. Why do you think that ALL the other Christians except the JWs are incorrect? What is your evidence that you are correct? If you have no evidence all you have is a personal opinion, a belief. Your belief is contradicted by many Bible verses. Anyone can make the Bible say what they want to believe by interpreting a few cherry picked verses the way they want to interpret them so they can believe what they want to believe.

I will leave you with this:

What are the odds that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are right? - Quora

How to identify the one faith:
10 ways to identify the one faith
One faith Eph 4:5

1. The one faith would worship the God Jehovah exclusively. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you must render sacred service.’” (It was written at Deut 6:13).

2. The one faith will not participate in war. Paul stated: (2 Corinthians 10:3) . . .For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. . .

3. The one faith approaches Jehovah through Jesus, Paul said:
(1 Timothy 2:5) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. . .Jesus said: (John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. . .

4. Jesus said the one faith would be known by the love of its adherents:
(John 13:34, 35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves. . .
It’s adherents would imitate Jesus,
Peter said: (1 Peter 2:21) . . .to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .

5. The one faith will preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, as mankind’s only hope, not a worldly government, Jesus stated:
(John 18:36) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. . . .
He told us to: (Matthew 6:33) 33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you.
Jesus stated the main reason he came to earth: (Luke 4:43) . . .“I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”
He assigned his followers to: (Matthew 28:19) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,. . ., 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.

6. The one faith accepts the Bible as the inspired message of God, Paul said:
(2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God. . .

7. The one faith would appear to be formed in the last days, it’s adherents would be highly educated through instruction, and would live the teachings in their lives: Isaiah wrote: (Isaiah 2:2, 3) . . .In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established . . .And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.

8. The one faith would not set men on high, with religious titles, Jesus said: (Matthew 23:8-10) 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

9. The one faith does not allow unrepentant sinners to remain among them,
Paul stated: (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) . . .I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . .“Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

10. The one faith does not practice interfaith with other “Christian” faiths. All teach the same thing, and have the same line of thought: (2 Cor 6:14) For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have?
(Phil 2:2) make my joy full by being of the same mind and having the same love, being completely united, having the one thought in mind.
(1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
Jesus said: (John 17:20) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word. . .in order that they may be one just as we are one.


What faiths meet all those scriptural identifiers maam?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@ capumetu

capumetu said:
How to identify the one faith:
10 ways to identify the one faith
One faith Eph 4:5


Trailblazer said: One should read that in its context in order to know what it means.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It says that there is one faith of God and one God who is the Father of all. It does not SAY what that faith is, you just assume it is your faith, which is highly arrogant. I believe those verses refer to the One Faith of God, the Faith of all the religions that were revealed by God. However, in the biblical days that was not known since it had not yet been revealed so I think that Paul was referring to the Christian faith in its entirety, and anyone who believes in Jesus Is a Christian.

1. The one faith would worship the God Jehovah exclusively. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you must render sacred service.’” (It was written at Deut 6:13).

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Neither one of the verses you cited say anything about Jehovah – they say we should worship and serve God. As far as I know that is what ALL Christians do, and so do Jews and Muslims and Baha’is., so that means they are part of the ONE FAITH.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

2. The one faith will not participate in war. Paul stated: (2 Corinthians 10:3) . . .For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. . .

And so, are you saying that the JW faith is the only faith that does not walk in the flesh. Or even that they do? That is simply false.

3. The one faith approaches Jehovah through Jesus, Paul said:
(1 Timothy 2:5) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. . .Jesus said: (John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
. . .

The Christian faith that is referenced in the Bible approaches God through Jesus, but ALL Christians do that, not only JWs.

4. Jesus said the one faith would be known by the love of its adherents:
(John 13:34, 35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves. . .
It’s adherents would imitate Jesus,
Peter said: (1 Peter 2:21) . . .to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .


ALL Christians are known by the love of their adherents, not only JWs.

5. The one faith will preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, as mankind’s only hope, not a worldly government, Jesus stated:
(John 18:36) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. . . .
He told us to: (Matthew 6:33) 33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you.
Jesus stated the main reason he came to earth: (Luke 4:43) . . .“I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”
He assigned his followers to: (Matthew 28:19) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,. . ., 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.


ALL Christians preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, as mankind’s only hope, not only JWs.

6. The one faith accepts the Bible as the inspired message of God, Paul said:
(2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God. . .


ALL Christians accepts the Bible as the inspired message of God, not only JWs.

7. The one faith would appear to be formed in the last days, it’s adherents would be highly educated through instruction, and would live the teachings in their lives: Isaiah wrote: (Isaiah 2:2, 3) . . .In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established . . .And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.

Many Christian denominations are formed in the last days and their adherents are be highly educated through instruction, and they live the teachings in their lives, not only JWs.

8. The one faith would not set men on high, with religious titles, Jesus said: (Matthew 23:8-10) 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

Christian denominations lave priests and pastors, but they do not set men on high, with religious titles. JWs also have leaders so they are no different than any other Christian denomination.

9. The one faith does not allow unrepentant sinners to remain among them,
Paul stated: (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) . . .I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . .“Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”


ALL Christian denominations lave unrepentant sinners among them. Those verses say not to keep company with a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; they do not say that those people are disallowed from being part of that faith. NOWHERE does it say that should be excommunicated from the church, that is not in the Bible, it is a JW practice.

10. The one faith does not practice interfaith with other “Christian” faiths. All teach the same thing, and have the same line of thought: (2 Cor 6:14) For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have?

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Lol, That verse absolutely does not say the one faith does not practice interfaith with other “Christian” faiths, it says that the members of that faith should not be yoked together with unbelievers (atheists).

What faiths meet all those scriptural identifiers maam?

Many faiths meet all those identifiers, although I do not agree that there is one faith that is the one true faith and I do not agree that ALL those identifiers are the ways by which we would identify the one faith (if there was one).
 

capumetu

Active Member
@ capumetu

capumetu said:
How to identify the one faith:
10 ways to identify the one faith
One faith Eph 4:5


Trailblazer said: One should read that in its context in order to know what it means.

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It says that there is one faith of God and one God who is the Father of all. It does not SAY what that faith is, you just assume it is your faith, which is highly arrogant. I believe those verses refer to the One Faith of God, the Faith of all the religions that were revealed by God. However, in the biblical days that was not known since it had not yet been revealed so I think that Paul was referring to the Christian faith in its entirety, and anyone who believes in Jesus Is a Christian.

1. The one faith would worship the God Jehovah exclusively. (Matthew 4:10) Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to Him alone you must render sacred service.’” (It was written at Deut 6:13).

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.

Neither one of the verses you cited say anything about Jehovah – they say we should worship and serve God. Where was it written Maam? I even told you what Jesus was quoting, Deut 6:13. Is God Jehovah or not, and why did you alter the passage? Do you think Jesus would have altered it when he quoted it? As far as I know that is what ALL Christians do, and so do Jews and Muslims and Baha’is., so that means they are part of the ONE FAITH.

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 287-288

2. The one faith will not participate in war. Paul stated: (2 Corinthians 10:3) . . .For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. . .

And so, are you saying that the JW faith is the only faith that does not walk in the flesh. Or even that they do? That is simply false.

3. The one faith approaches Jehovah through Jesus, Paul said:
(1 Timothy 2:5) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus. . .Jesus said: (John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
. . .

The Christian faith that is referenced in the Bible approaches God through Jesus, but ALL Christians do that, not only JWs.

4. Jesus said the one faith would be known by the love of its adherents:
(John 13:34, 35) . . .I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves. . .
It’s adherents would imitate Jesus,
Peter said: (1 Peter 2:21) . . .to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. . .


ALL Christians are known by the love of their adherents, not only JWs.

5. The one faith will preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, as mankind’s only hope, not a worldly government, Jesus stated:
(John 18:36) . . .“My Kingdom is no part of this world. . . .
He told us to: (Matthew 6:33) 33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you.
Jesus stated the main reason he came to earth: (Luke 4:43) . . .“I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”
He assigned his followers to: (Matthew 28:19) . . .Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,. . ., 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.


ALL Christians preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, as mankind’s only hope, not only JWs.

6. The one faith accepts the Bible as the inspired message of God, Paul said:
(2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God. . .


ALL Christians accepts the Bible as the inspired message of God, not only JWs.

7. The one faith would appear to be formed in the last days, it’s adherents would be highly educated through instruction, and would live the teachings in their lives: Isaiah wrote: (Isaiah 2:2, 3) . . .In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established . . .And to it all the nations will stream. 3 And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.

Many Christian denominations are formed in the last days and their adherents are be highly educated through instruction, and they live the teachings in their lives, not only JWs.

8. The one faith would not set men on high, with religious titles, Jesus said: (Matthew 23:8-10) 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

Christian denominations lave priests and pastors, but they do not set men on high, with religious titles. JWs also have leaders so they are no different than any other Christian denomination.

9. The one faith does not allow unrepentant sinners to remain among them,
Paul stated: (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) . . .I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. . .“Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”


ALL Christian denominations lave unrepentant sinners among them. Those verses say not to keep company with a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; they do not say that those people are disallowed from being part of that faith. NOWHERE does it say that should be excommunicated from the church, that is not in the Bible, it is a JW practice.

10. The one faith does not practice interfaith with other “Christian” faiths. All teach the same thing, and have the same line of thought: (2 Cor 6:14) For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have?

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Lol, That verse absolutely does not say the one faith does not practice interfaith with other “Christian” faiths, it says that the members of that faith should not be yoked together with unbelievers (atheists).

What faiths meet all those scriptural identifiers maam?

Many faiths meet all those identifiers, although I do not agree that there is one faith that is the one true faith and I do not agree that ALL those identifiers are the ways by which we would identify the one faith (if there was one).
That is all good and fine, but I would like you to name just one maam. You see, only one meets all those qualifiers.
 

capumetu

Active Member
Good luck with that, because I would not even want to have a faith that met all those 10 identifiers.

That is the key maam. May I ask what it is that God requires of you that you find so god awful that you are willing to sacrifice your everlasting life for it?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is the key maam. May I ask what it is that God requires of you that you find so god awful that you are willing to sacrifice your everlasting life for it?
I am not sacrificing my everlasting life. Rather, I fully I expect to have everlasting life because I have recognized Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah wanted everyone to have everlasting life but because we all have free will some people will reject the offer....

“Every unbiased observer will readily admit that, ever since the dawn of His Revelation, this wronged One hath invited all mankind to turn their faces towards the Day Spring of Glory, and hath forbidden corruption, hatred, oppression, and wickedness. And yet, behold what the hand of the oppressor hath wrought! No pen dare describe his tyranny. Though the purpose of Him Who is the Eternal Truth hath been to confer everlasting life upon all men, and ensure their security and peace, yet witness how they have arisen to shed the blood of His loved ones, and have pronounced on Him the sentence of death.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 115-116


Those who reject Baha'u'llah won't have everlasting life. It was the same in the days of Jesus, one had to believe in Jesus to and embrace His Cause in order attain to everlasting life. In the early centuries only a few Christians embraced the Cause of Jesus and became the instruments for its promotion. We are in the early days of the Baha'i Faith now, so only a few have as yet embraced the Cause of Baha'u'llah.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
A peaceful world is hard to imagine, and sounds pretty boring. Humans like conflict, which is why conflict is involved in every good story.
Even Biblical kingdoms have hierarchy , segregated into ruling classes and status.

Its not hard to envision, its par for course for a man-made concept of paradise.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Don't ask that to Jehovah Witness they already split in a couple of smaller sects after many failed predictions. I think they ot wiser since it's been a while since they attempted to make a prediction of the sort with a clear timeframe and now prefer the "soon" qualifier.
The JWs read from the Watch Tower Magazine and say things written in it, and the editors of a magazine do change, please. Right friends, please/

Regards
 
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