The Kaaba and Idolatry

[Halcyon]

Please, don't take this as an insult, just an observation on my part.

Islam is strict in its rules on idolatry, no image or object should be prayed too, right?

I'm curious as to why praying towards the Kaaba is not against the rules of idolatry?

Here's my reasoning;
Most people who use idols/icons - neo-pagans, buddhists, catholics etc - don't actually pray to the idol but to the personage the idol represents, if you like, they use the idol as a focus point, but don't usually believe the idol itself is in anyway divine.

Isn't this the same use you have for the Kaaba, as a focus point? How is it not idolatry?

 

[Djamila]

Because we do not pray to the Kaaba or to Abraham, who is associated with it. We simply believe it was the first place of worship dedicated to the God of the Abrahamic faiths, and facing that direction when we pray is a way of... demonstrating, to God, who we are.

 

[Djamila]

I think, the role of the Kaaba is one of the weaker things for which you can suggest idolatry. I think, among some Muslims, Muhammed is held to a regard much higher than a prophet should be, and that makes me worry about idolatry sometimes. But I have no fears about the Kaaba.

It's like saying...is the front of a Christian church an idol? Not really. Is a priest or an Imam an idol? It seems more like a debate you could have... but Kaaba I just don't get the feeling of idolatry, you know?

And no offense taken, you have to be free to ask your questions.

 

[Halcyon]

Because we do not pray to the Kaaba or to Abraham, who is associated with it. We simply believe it was the first place of worship dedicated to the God of the Abrahamic faiths, and facing that direction when we pray is a way of... demonstrating, to God, who we are.

This is what i've read.

So would you say that a pagan praying towards a statue of Aphrodite, but not actually to the statue was idol worship?

(I'm not trying to trap or trick you here or anything, i'm just trying to better understand what constitutes idolatry in Islam)

 

[Djamila]

This is what i've read.

So would you say that a pagan praying towards a statue of Aphrodite, but not actually to the statue was idol worship?

(I'm not trying to trap or trick you here or anything, i'm just trying to better understand what constitutes idolatry in Islam)

Praying to a statue of Aphrodite would be idolatry in my mind regardless, because it's Aphrodite.

A depiction of the human form in that regard is also frowned upon in Islam, so even if it was God and not Aphrodite, it would probably still be viewed as idol worship by most Muslims.

Beyond that, it depends what is in their heart.

For example, when Christians pray facing their altar with the crucifix and that sort of thing, it could be idol worship in my mind either way - it depends on their intentions.

But when a Virgin Mary statue leaks blood and all they come to pray to the statue, that's idol worship for sure in my mind because it's about the statue.

 

[Halcyon]

A depiction of the human form in that regard is also frowned upon in Islam, so even if it was God and not Aphrodite, it would probably still be viewed as idol worship by most Muslims.

Why would it be wrong to worship towards an image of God (if such a thing were possible) according to Islamic teaching?

 

[jacquie4000]

This may be off topic but why do they kiss the black stone at the kabaa?

 

[Halcyon]

This may be off topic but why do they kiss the black stone at the kabaa?

I know this one, its because Muhammed kissed it. Not sure if they know why he did though...

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

The kaaba is simply used as a direction for the unification of muslims at he time of prayers. This places us in a unified state of mind. In the dyas of the prophet and even previous prophets, the followers had a distinct direction for prayer that set them apart from those who were praying to things other than God. The muslim kaaba was the same as the jews at frist, but it was later changed by Allah to face the kaaba.

So like I said, it is for the unification of us physically and spritually. Can you image on friday prayers all the muslims just praying haphazardly?

Good question though. I can see why you'd ask.

 

[Booko]

The kaaba is simply used as a direction for the unification of muslims at he time of prayers. This places us in a unified state of mind. In the dyas of the prophet and even previous prophets, the followers had a distinct direction for prayer that set them apart from those who were praying to things other than God. The muslim kaaba was the same as the jews at frist, but it was later changed by Allah to face the kaaba.

All of the Western faiths have a Qiblih, fwiw.

But just for a change, I won't continue and derail this thread.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

All of the Western faiths have a Qiblih, fwiw.

But just for a change, I won't continue and derail this thread.

Sorry I missed that. Western christianity has a qiblah? Hmmm, when I was a christian we didn't even pray regularly. I was and still am completely unaware of this. It strikes me that having a qiblah indicates having an established prayer routine of some type. Western christianity largely lack that.

 

[James the Persian]

Sorry I missed that. Western christianity has a qiblah? Hmmm, when I was a christian we didn't even pray regularly. I was and still am completely unaware of this. It strikes me that having a qiblah indicates having an established prayer routine of some type. Western christianity largely lack that.

What's a qiblah? It sounds from the context as though it might mean a direction in which you pray. If that's the case, we certainly have one. It's east which is why Orthodox churches are always built orientated that way. We also do have an established prayer routine (but then we aren't western Christians).

James

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Yes a qiblah is a direction for prayer. I was trying to explain that the kaaba itself isn't so much important as the unification of prayer for muslims. Since we are supposed to be praying together when it is time, there must be some organization to it. Hence, Allah designated the qibla towards the kaaba. This is the function of facing the kaaba, not as a form of worship. I was trying to explain that.

Also, I specifically wrote western christianity because I knew you would find your way to this thread and correct me if I didn't.

 

[James the Persian]

Yes a qiblah is a direction for prayer. I was trying to explain that the kaaba itself isn't so much important as the unification of prayer for muslims. Since we are supposed to be praying together when it is time, there must be some organization to it. Hence, Allah designated the qibla towards the kaaba. This is the function of facing the kaaba, not as a form of worship. I was trying to explain that.

Also, I specifically wrote western christianity because I knew you would find your way to this thread and correct me if I didn't.

I guessed that. Western Christianity did have a direction for prayer once also, and it was also east. That's why wherever the altar is in a western church is referred to as Liturgical east, even if it's actually north or whatever. You'll see this if you look at discussions about which way the priest faces when serving, where they'll refer to facing the altar (as we do) as east. I've no idea when the RCC started building churches facing away from true east, but it's not something we ever did.

The funny thing is in my wife's home town where the Orthodox Church faces east, the Roman Catholic north and the Uniate (RCs that use the Orthodox Liturgy rather than the Latin Mass) faces north-east. This results in much ribbing by both Orthodox and Latin rite RC alike - jokes to the effect that they are so confused they don't know which way to face!

James

 

[EiNsTeiN]

This may be off topic but why do they kiss the black stone at the kabaa?

We do that because Prophet Mohammed did that...
We believe the black stone is from the Paradise and was sent to Abraham from the heavens to put it in Kaaba...
Its chemical components are not known even, just a weird stone, which by the way was white and turned black...I'm not sure, but some people claim it's due to the bad acts of humanity...

It's not an order to kiss the black stone, we just doing it for the sake of our prophet...
Omar ibn elkhatab said that if Prophet Mohammed didnt kiss it, he would never give the black stone any admiration (for a sign that he refuses any symbols of idolatry)

But I like to kiss a stone coming from heavens!!

 

[Halcyon]

Thanks for the answers everyone, i understand much better now.

 

[john313]

Why would it be wrong to worship towards an image of God (if such a thing were possible) according to Islamic teaching?

it is not possible to make a correct image of God. God is spirit

peace

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Please, don't take this as an insult, just an observation on my part.

Islam is strict in its rules on idolatry, no image or object should be prayed too, right?

I'm curious as to why praying towards the Kaaba is not against the rules of idolatry?

Here's my reasoning;
Most people who use idols/icons - neo-pagans, buddhists, catholics etc - don't actually pray to the idol but to the personage the idol represents, if you like, they use the idol as a focus point, but don't usually believe the idol itself is in anyway divine.

Isn't this the same use you have for the Kaaba, as a focus point? How is it not idolatry?

We worship Allah not the Kaaba, it is much different if we said Allah was the Kabba and we built the Kabba then it would be the same. we do not know what Allah looks like so our God is the unseen God. The unseen God of Abraham. We are ordered by Allah to look at the house when we perform our prayers. It is just one of the conditions for the prayer to be valid.

there are other conditions as well like be in state of wudu, wearing clothes that cover the awra, clean clothes, clean place, not in state of impurity etc. Besides before the verses in Surah Baqarah were revealed the muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem.

so you must understand it is an order for us to do when we pray Allah not the Kabba says to face it. If Allah said for us to face the north pole when we pray would.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

This is what i've read.

So would you say that a pagan praying towards a statue of Aphrodite, but not actually to the statue was idol worship?

(I'm not trying to trap or trick you here or anything, i'm just trying to better understand what constitutes idolatry in Islam)

Yeah but the idol of Aphrodite is a depiction of a goddess that man sculpted with his own hand.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Why would it be wrong to worship towards an image of God (if such a thing were possible) according to Islamic teaching?

Because it is impossible in our teachings no one has seen Allah. In the Quran Allah says Musa (Moses) pbuh asked Allah to let him see Him. Allah said I will reveal myself to the mountain and if it sustains then He will reveal Himself to Musa. The blast disentegrated the mountain to dust and knocked Moses out for a few days.

But that is why it is wrong for it could not happen.