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Featured The JW's claim Jesus was not son of Adam.

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by LightofTruth, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I do not believe so. I believe the desires of the flesh sometimes run contrary to the will of the spirit but the spirit holds power over the flesh unless a person simply gives in to it. Giving in to the flesh can be a sin.
     
  2. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Spirit form "Jesus", isn't the wacky riddler.
    They got the riddler mixed up with Biblical content about the real Jesus.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find 'if' Jesus was unable to sin then there would be No need for Satan to tempt, to test Jesus as he did.
    Adam was also created in God's image. (Not a physical image, but in the likeness of his Father with divine attributes or qualities such as love, justice, wisdom, mercy, etc.)
    This means Adam had ' moral ' attributes or qualities.
    Morals meaning that Adam had a God-given conscience in order to make his own moral choices.
    Adam was created upright meaning Adam (Like Jesus) could only do wrong on purpose, willfully.
    Once humanly-perfect Adam crossed his conscience to break God's Law, then Adam lost his human perfection.
    Since we are all born after Adam sinned loosing his human perfection, Adam passed down to us his imperfection.
    This is why our imperfect leanings are towards wrongdoing, and we need to put forth effort to be upright.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    God does not change. He had a set outcome for creation (Isaiah 55:11) but allowed his free willed creatures to learn from their mistakes, making a written record in order for them to do so.

    Adam was a perfect creation....without sin because God does not create imperfection. He abused his free will and paid the penalty. His children inherited that imperfection we call sin, and it's wages...death.
    Angels too have free will and those who followed the devil into rebellion will also suffer eternal death. At Matthew 25:41 Jesus speaks of the fate already "prepared for the devil and his angels".



    Then you believe that God set it up to sabotage his own creation?
    Why would he do that? :shrug:

    Perfect beings can choose to abuse their free will....otherwise it isn't free......satan was the first to oppose his God, and he influenced other perfect creatures to rebel....two humans and countless other angels.

    There are two kinds of sin in the Bible....the imperfection in our physical bodies that causes us to age, get sick, and die. It also predisposes us to do the wrong thing. We inherited that from Adam (Romans 5:12; Romans 7:18-23 ) But then there is the sin that we actively carry out, despite the fact that we know it is wrong. No one can force us to sin....we do that of our own volition. That is the sin that God can forgive, but only if we are genuinely repentant. Unrepentant ones will forfeit their lives if they give into their sinful inclinations. Why do you think that the road to life is cramped and difficult? (Matthew 7:13-14)

    The sin Jesus came to remove is the first kind (Adamic sin) the second kind is what we choose to do of our own free will.
    The perfect man Jesus, was tempted into disobedience as well. Why would satan even try to corrupt Jesus if it was not possible to do so? Free will simply means that we have choices in everything. The first humans made a wrong choice and we are all paying for it. Jesus gave his life to save ours. Sin and death will be conquered, thanks to Jesus' willing sacrifice on our behalf. (Revelation 21:2-4)


    The spiritual battle is against our enemies in the spiritual realm. This world is ruled by the devil (1 John 5:19) and he has an army of henchmen willingly doing his bidding....both human and demonic. Look at the state of this world and see their hand in all of the world's problems....this is what Paul spoke about. That is what we battle every day, not just physically, but more so, spiritually. Our weapons however are not carnal. (2 Corinthians 10:3-4) Our only weapon is "the sword of the spirit"...God's word.

    If you continue on from the scripture you quoted, it says...Ephesians 6:13-17...

    "13 For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God, so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm.

    14 Stand firm, therefore, with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having your feet shod in readiness to declare the good news of peace. 16 Besides all of this, take up the large shield of faith, with which you will be able to extinguish all the wicked one’s burning arrows. 17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word,"

    Jesus provided the exact price required to redeem humanity from Adam's sin by becoming the "last Adam". (1 Corinthians 15:45-47; Romans 5:18-19)
    The law required equivalency and Jesus' life was the exact equivalent of Adam's. It cancelled the debt, releasing all of his children from the penalty that Adam incurred for them.

    This is what the Bible teaches.....
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Satan simply had a poor image of God.

    I believe that doesn't even matter because Gen. 2 does not say that Adam was created in the image of God.

    I believe for me that would only be 1% of my DNA if it were really possible to pass sin on that way but I believe it is not.
     
  6. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is correct.

    I don't believe Isa. 55:11 says that.

    I don't believe I see any basis for that view.


    I don't believe a physical creation has anything to do with sin and in this case God was simply restoring a lost physical race rather than starting from the beginning.

    I believe you misconstrue what actually happened. Adam was created without the knowledge of evil. That doesn't mean his spirit was sinless only that it didn't remember it.

    I believe it is still a spiritual battle. It is a question of whether this world will rule our spirits or our spirits will rule over this world. And Jesus said "be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
     
  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, I agree a spiritual battle.
    Because Jesus overcame the world ( of badness ) is why we can be of good cheer.
    This is why when we reach the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth we can be of good cheer.
    When the spiritual battle will be over for the humble 'sheep'-like people at the time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the Biblical content about the real Jesus can be researched at www.jw.org and www.jwbroadcasting.
    Biblical content shows Jesus related to Adam according to Luke 3:38.
    That information comes from the Jewish ancestral records as found starting at 1 Chronicles.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the physical portion of Jesus has at least a partial ancestry descending from Adam but the lineage has gaps.
     
  10. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    WTS/JW basically teach the same unfallen flesh nature as Roman Catholicism (Latin: vicarivs christi; koine Greek, anti christos), though they approach it from a differing theology, while Rome employs, "original sin", "immaculate conception" dogmas.

    Bible says:

    Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

    Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

    Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.​

    If Jesus is not a "son of Adam", then He is not the messiah of Genesis 3:15 promised to Adam, and to Eve, which Eve looked for of her own loins (Genesis 4:1).

    Jesus is not a sinner (1 John 3:4), though he had taken on the likeness of sinful flesh as we have. When the text says, "All have sinned ...", Jesus is excluded, as other texts reveal:

    Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    The question then is, what kind of nature do unfallen [ooops, I gave it away] Heavenly Angels have, as opposed to every child of fallen Adam, and since Jesus did not take on that nature of Heavenly angels, that only leaves the other.

    Romans 1:3 KJB - Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    If it were not so, Jesus could never have "condemned sin in the flesh", being His flesh that He took upon Himself.

    Romans 8:3 KJB - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    [for "likeness" see Philippians 2:7; Romans 6:5]
    Keep in mind this text always:

    John 3:6 KJB - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    It really is simple, eh?

    1 Peter 4:1 KJB - Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

    Galatians 4:4 KJB - But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Romans 5:19 KJB - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    The so-called Evangelical 'gospel' is no Gospel at all when compared to the infinite value of the True and Everlasting Gospel...

    LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH

    The lineage of Jesus given in both Matthew [Matthew 1:1-18; "son of David, the son of Abraham"] and Luke [Luke 3:23-38; "[son of] Adam", etc] is easily seen in the lives and history of Jesus' ancestors, of which He Himself inherited of their fleshly nature when He was made of a woman.

    Jesus has for flesh and blood ancestors, murderers, thieves, harlots, idolators, etc, but none of that makes Him as such [a sinner], but He did and does inherit the flesh and blood, fallen flesh nature, like as we. For He was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin, and His temptations were far greater [not less].

    How many sons of Adam were born from Adam after His sin? All of them, including all of us here, and also Jesus, being born of Mary [Matthew 1:16], who was of the line, the seed according to the flesh, of David.

    David acknowledges his heritage in the Psalms, and Jesus is called the "son of David", and also the "son of Abraham". Did they have sinful flesh? Were they born after Adam's fall? Yes.

    To be born with sinful flesh is not to be born with the guilt of sin/transgression. The scripture teaches that to [commit] sin [of commission or omission] is to be a transgressor [of the Law], not simply being born with sinful flesh.
     
  11. Crosstian

    Crosstian Baring the Cross

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    If all will go with me to other scriptures please, where it describes this "flesh" [sarx]:

    "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..." [John 1:14]

    "GOD manifest in the flesh" [1 Timothy 3:16],

    "the LORD from Heaven" [1 Corinthians 15:47],

    "made of a woman" [Galatians 4:4],

    "made of the seed of David according to the flesh" [Romans 1:3],

    "...to every seed his own body..." [1 Corinthians 15:38],

    "...of the fruit of his [David's] loins, according to the flesh..." [Acts 2:30]

    of the "seed of Abraham" [Hebrews 2:16],

    even "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" [Hebrews 2:14] [what flesh are we born with, that He partook of then, what blood?]

    and "in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren" [Hebrews 2:17],

    that we might have "...known Christ after the flesh..." [2 Corinthians 5:16],

    and scripture giving us the family line and genealogy of that very flesh [sarx] and blood nature He took upon Himself [Matthew 1:1-25; Luke 3:23-38]

    the "[the son] of Adam" [Luke 3:38]

    as it is said, "made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" [Philippians 2:7],

    and "...in the days of His flesh..." [Hebrews 5:7],

    "was in all points tempted like as [we are yet] without sin" [Hebrews 4:15],

    and in His death it is written, "...my flesh shall rest in hope..." [Acts 2:26], and

    "...his soul [being/person] was not left in the grave, neither his flesh did see corruption..." [Acts 2:31] because He was/is...

    "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" [Hebrews 7:26]

    that "holy thing" [Luke 1:35]

    and "holy child" [Acts 4:27,30]

    born of the "Holy Ghost" [Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35],

    where even though He came in the likeness [Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:7; etc] of sinful flesh, yet He was without sin:

    "...lamb shall be without blemish..." [Exodus 12:5]

    "… But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none." [Matthew 26:60]

    "...the innocent blood..." [Matthew 27:4]

    "...For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. ..." [Matthew 27:18]

    "… Have thou nothing to do with that just man …" [Matthew 27:19]

    "… Why, what evil hath he done? …" [Matthew 27:23]

    "… I am innocent of the blood of this just person …" [Matthew 27:24]

    "The said Pilate … I find no fault in this man.” [Luke 23:4]

    "… Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:" [Luke 23:14]

    "… what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him ..." [Luke 23:22]

    "...lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him." [Luke 23:15]

    "...this man hath done nothing amiss." [Luke 23:41]

    "… Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man." [Luke 23:47]

    "...I have kept my Father's commandments..." [John 15:10]

    "...I find in him no fault [at all]." [John 18:38]

    "...I find no fault in him." [John 19:4]

    "...I find no fault in him." [John 19:6]

    "...the obedience of one..." [Romans 5:19]

    "...who knew no sin..." [2 Corinthians 5:21]

    "...without sin." [Hebrews 4:15]

    "...[who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners..." [Hebrews 7:26]

    "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:" [1 Peter 2:22]

    "...in him is no sin." [1 John 3:5]

    "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God..." [Hebrews 9:4;p]

    ...and thereby, in the same likeness of sinful flesh as we, yet living without sin, never having sinned, never once transgressed the Holy Law of God; Jesus showed that with God there is no excuse for sin and thus "...condemned sin in the flesh." [Romans 8:3];

    "...having crucified the flesh..." [Galatians 5:24],

    and "...nailing it to His cross." [Colossians 2:4],

    "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh..." [1 Peter 4:1];

    even "...being put to death in the flesh..." [1 Peter 3:18],

    and we are to be "...crucified with Christ..." [Galatians 5:24],

    "In the body of His flesh through death..." [Colossians 1:22],

    become dead to the penalty of the Law, the 2nd Death, "...by the body of Christ..." [Romans 7:4],

    that we might be "...members of His body, and of His flesh, and of His bones." [Ephesians 5:30],

    by a "...new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh;" [Hebrews 10:20]

    so that we may know this, "...Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." [Romans 6:6]

    "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:" [Hebrews 10:5]

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." [1 Peter 2:24]

    "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]." [Hebrews 10:10]

    Therefore, we have this hope, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." [Philippians 3:21]
    Therefore, it is very important to understand with what flesh Jesus came, not only to the Everlasting Gospel [Genesis 3:15; Revelation 14:6-7, etc], and how Christ Jesus is to save us from sin [Matthew 1:21; not in it] and to redeem us unto God, it is written,

    "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:" [1 John 4:2]

    What flesh is John speaking about? The very likeness of sinful flesh we have, of the race of Adam, for he says, "...our hands have handled, of the Word of life." [1 John 1:1]

    And it is written of those which refuse this, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." [1 John 4:3]

    "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." [2 John 1:7]​

    And who teaches that Jesus did not come in that sinful flesh?

    The Mother of Harlots [Revelation 17], through its particular Dogma...

    ...and also her harlot daughters ...

    ...there are many "... not discerning the Lord's body." [1 Corinthians 11:29]

    Please read Romans 5 carefully and prayerfully, and especially see Romans 5:19 and read it several times and come to understand what it is powerfully saying, along with all the places in Revelation which speaks about over coming, even as He overcame in the flesh.
     
  12. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
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    Man is essentially Adam in Hebrew. Also only one kind of flesh concerning man. According to the flesh he became an earthly man. In the Grand scheme of things he is the only begotten Son of God first and foremost however he was made into the flesh of man to perform the will of God.

    Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

    Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

    Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    [QUOTE="URAVIP2ME, post: 6309137, member: 19507"]I find 'if' Jesus was unable to sin then there would be No need for Satan to tempt, to test Jesus as he did.
    Adam was also created in God's image. (Not a physical image, but in the likeness of his Father with divine attributes or qualities such as love, justice, wisdom, mercy, etc.)
    This means Adam had ' moral ' attributes or qualities.
    Morals meaning that Adam had a God-given conscience in order to make his own moral choices.
    Adam was created upright meaning Adam (Like Jesus) could only do wrong on purpose, willfully.
    Once humanly-perfect Adam crossed his conscience to break God's Law, then Adam lost his human perfection.
    Since we are all born after Adam sinned loosing his human perfection, Adam passed down to us his imperfection.
    This is why our imperfect leanings are towards wrongdoing, and we need to put forth effort to be upright.[/QUOTE]

    I believe that was wishful thing on the devils part. He probably thought being in the flesh would make a difference. It did not.

    I believe there is no evidence of this. Man (Adamic race) was formed from the earth. The spirit breathed in is not identified as God or an image of Him.

    I believe the conclusion is wrong because the premise is wrong.

    I believe that does not automatically happen. It is true that parents often have the most influence over children but each spirit is independent and can decide for itself. That is why you can find righteous kings that were sons of wicked kings.

    I believe you are wrong on both counts. I believe the spirits inhabiting mankind were influenced by the fall of the angels. I believe we are saved from sin by the grace of Jesus not by putting forth effort.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find according to www.jw.org that at Luke 3:38 Adam was son of God.
    However, un-like earthly Adam, pre-human heavenly Jesus was also the Son of God.
    Even pre-human Jesus and Satan had the same Father:
    * One son turned out to be a rebel against his Father.
    * One Son turned out to be obedient to his Father
    Disobedient sons, includes sinner Satan, are classed with the wicked to be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Hebrews 2:14 B.
    Obedient sons, includes sinless Son Jesus, can live forever, everlasting life either in Heaven for some, or on a restored paradisical Earth for the majority of mankind under Christ's coming 1,000-year reign.
     
    #74 URAVIP2ME, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Who teaches that Jesus did Not come in that sinful flesh?________ ( post # 71)
    I find at John 8:46 Jesus asks who of you convicts me (Jesus) of sin ?
    At Hebrews 4:15 it says that Jesus was tested but without sin. ( No sinful flesh )
    At Hebrews 7:26 Jesus is found innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners.... ( No sinful flesh )
    Peter writes at 1 Peter 2:22 that Jesus committed No sin.... ( No sinful flesh otherwise Jesus would have sinned )
     
  16. theQuestion

    theQuestion Member

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    HMMMM!
    Son of Adam...of Son of God...
    TOUGH CHOICE!
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Satan often deceives himself as often as he deceives others. I think he thought being in the flesh would be a weakness he could exploit.

    I believe that is speculation without a foundation.

    I believe it is highly likely that he was created without a knowledge of sin but when the knowledge becomes avaliable that natural tendency to sin raises its ugly head.

    I believe I don't buy the physical transmission of sin.
     
  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Ibelieve it is both. Son of Adam by the flesh and Son of God by the Spirit
     
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