1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured The journey to find or construct the real Jesus. Peril or silver lining??

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Apr 16, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,750
    Ratings:
    +4,415
    Religion:
    Islam
    The dating we use today is Anno Domini. This is the year 2021. And that's based on the birth of Jesus. Although if the correct birth year of Jesus is to be pursued, it should be as many confess, 2025. This shows one thing, and that is how much of importance this man, or man God has vested upon him.

    Finding the real Jesus is not a path that suddenly emerged in the 20th century. Rather, since probably the beginning of all of this. As you all know there were many writings neglected as apocrypha in the Nag Hamadi findings. Oh the writings about Jesus are huge. Yet, who is the real Jesus?

    Does the writing of Josephus that passingly mentions Jesus, the brother of James, they called the Messiah signify that there indeed was at least a man people had called the Messiah? Well, how about the well known forged advertisement for Jesus in Josephus and his antiquities when someone tried to insert the miracle worker attribute to Jesus? In order to construct the Jesus they want into history, did not these people actually cause harm by casting doubt when people found out that it was all false?

    Some scholars who believe Jesus existed as the majority of them do, do believe that it is almost human creativity to try and construct the real life of Jesus Christ based on the theological writings. Vis a Vis, the New Testament. Some stories like the Pericope Adultarae which is a known interpolation into the Gospel of John have been the point of scrutiny for many theologians and apologists in their effort to make it a true story. Whoever inserted it first, may have taken this story from someone like Eusebius who mentions a woman of sin in a so called gospel hebrews that Papias spoke of in the early 2nd century. But this person tried this insertion too late. And some evangelical apologists use this as an argument. Then you get an argument about the protogospel of James where some people like like W. Petersen argue the Pericope Adultarae existed due to a phrase 16:2. Its not good enough and puts them as "hook or crook attempts". When people make such arguments to try and make a latter insertion valid it puts the authenticity at huge peril.

    Critical scholars take the words of Josephus associating James with Jesus who they called the Messiah as the only historically available statement. Which has prompted some scholars like the unorthodox muslim Reza Aslan to take the approach of consulting many many scholars, their works, the recorded history of the Romans, the setting of the time and place and plug Jesus into that in order to figure out a Jesus that is historical. Now this Jesus would obviously contradict the Jesus of Christian Theology or as a matter of fact, any Jesus of any theology.

    Jesus is known today by most as a carpenter. Was he? Tekton as anyone knows does not mean carpenter unless you add "wood" into the word. A Tekton of stone would be a stone worker. A Tekton of iron would be an iron worker. Which Jesus is the real Jesus?

    While Judaism rejects Jesus, Islam embraces him as a prophet of God. A Messenger. The Quran is a 7th century document, thus being 7 centuries apart from Jesus as a historical document it can be argued that it is not valid. A curious case is the statement in this book that Jesus was not crucified nor killed by them as in the Jews but only made to appear as they did. The usual opposition to this is that "why would God make it appear as if they crucified him"?? Well, the text does not say that it was God who made it appear as such. So that's a cloven assumption. It also denies that the Jews killed him which means it could always be the Romans who did, and that's the position of scholars anyway, that it was the Romans who killed him for sedition.

    There were many Christs in that era. Many people called themselves Christ. And many of them were killed by the Romans and their movements crushed. Yep, it was for sedition. Judas the Galilean, Hezekiah, Simon of Peraea, Menahem, Simon son of Kochba, Simonson of Giora, the Samaritan, Theudas, Athronges, etc. Thus, was Jesus a significant figure in comparison to everyone else at that time, or was he just one of them and nothing special?? Well it certainly seems like it because the "decadent" Josephus would make him a little significant if he was wouldn't he? Or did he subdue Jesus on purpose? Also if Jesus was not a significant character how in the world is he the only venerated Christ of the time, though he was also killed in the same manner like everyone else?

    Who is the real Jesus?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,388
    Ratings:
    +9,170
    Religion:
    Pagan, Druid
    You are.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,750
    Ratings:
    +4,415
    Religion:
    Islam
    No
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  4. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,923
    Ratings:
    +1,847
    Religion:
    Eastern Orthodox
    Finding the 'real, historical Jesus' is an old endeavor and the results have been all over the place. I think the Gospels are the best guide.

    By the way, I think it is assumed Jesus was a carpenter simply because we are told that his father was one. Normally the son would pick up that trade too.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,029
    Ratings:
    +2,295
    Religion:
    Dinner
    You might find the work of Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman interesting.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,422
    Ratings:
    +9,525
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    I honestly don't think anyone will ever know, and I also don't think it matters. Jesus, now, is a character in a mythical religious story that conveys an idea and a promise to humanity. The actual character is of little consequence, now. What is of consequence are the ideals and the promise that the story of his life and death and resurrection present to us.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus retired astronomer

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,923
    Ratings:
    +1,847
    Religion:
    Eastern Orthodox
    Ehrman has a bit of an agenda but is worth reading. I prefer John Crossan, in this area of research.
     
  8. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    64,158
    Ratings:
    +31,497
    Religion:
    Love
    Besides the Quran, Meher Baba and legends in India say that he did not die on the cross so that assumption is a matter of faith and speculation, not proven fact.

    But the key question to me is the one you asked. If we look at almost any era, how is it that some such as Krishna, Buddha, Moses and others stand out and are venerated over centuries and more?

    Care to speculate?
     
  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    21,127
    Ratings:
    +7,524
    Religion:
    deist
    The one described in G-Mark, less the additions, trimmings and manipulations.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    15,276
    Ratings:
    +2,588
    Yes, it was the Romans who executed Jesus for sedition, treason and injured majesty.
    The corrupted clergy did Not have the power to execute Jesus, so they had to use trumped-up charges in order for the Romans to do their dirty work for them.
    Scripture places the blame on those unfaithful Jews -> Acts of the Apostles 3:12-15; Acts of the Apostles 2:22-23.
    Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law those unfaithful Jewish people failed to bring Jesus to justice.
    So, they failed in community responsibility thus they were held culpable in God's eyes - Deuteronomy 21:1-9.
    To me, we can find the real Jesus through the pages of Scripture.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  11. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    7,388
    Ratings:
    +9,170
    Religion:
    Pagan, Druid
  12. passerby

    passerby Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2021
    Messages:
    40
    Ratings:
    +40
    Religion:
    roman catholic
    Historical figures, even well documented ones, can only be viewed through the prism of the present. If you are looking for the person of Jesus Christ in some form of archaeological evidence (as opposed to written) he will elude you.
    Jesus is a unique figure in history because he was before the world was, his coming on Earth predicted through the Old Testament and in the Incarnation through Mary's consent He walked on Earth, was crucified and rose again. Now, we anticipate His return at the end of time.
    For me this is the Jesus I experience in my life everyday and I need no other proof, only the spiritual reality that He loved me unto death and has made a place for me to be with Him in my true, spiritual existence.
     
  13. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    3,743
    Ratings:
    +3,094
    Religion:
    agnostic
    "History becomes legend; legend becomes myth."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    33,627
    Ratings:
    +14,292
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    Purposely so. We have nothing -- not a portrait, not a date of birth, not a tax record. Absolutely nothing has been kept and nothing of personal importance has been passed along. He has no astrological sign, no favorite food, no hair color. We don't know how tall or short. We don't even know if he was a carpenter. These things have purposely not been told, or we would know them. Certainly it would have been an item of interest for any disciple. I would have asked. I think this can only mean that either the disciples refused to describe him or that he had no description.

    Could that be a figure of speech?

    Does this peg Islam to considering him to be a real human? He can't be a phantom or eggregore or a what-if?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    5,753
    Ratings:
    +5,401
    Religion:
    Spiritual but not religious
    Or it shows just how influential strings attached charity/proselytism is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2015
    Messages:
    7,394
    Ratings:
    +2,061
    Religion:
    Unitarian Universalism,Pagan,Zen
    The Gnostic gospels and lost Gospels paint a different picture of Jesus and one who was married to Mary, so which set of Gospels will you believe? How about The Book Of Mormon or the Catholic bible are they right?
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,750
    Ratings:
    +4,415
    Religion:
    Islam
    Well, if someone really wants anything "could be" anything.

    Yes. It considers him a "real human".
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,750
    Ratings:
    +4,415
    Religion:
    Islam
    I dont consider any of them as historical.
     
  19. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,750
    Ratings:
    +4,415
    Religion:
    Islam
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,750
    Ratings:
    +4,415
    Religion:
    Islam
    Yeah. But this thread is not about a Jesus of faith.
     
Loading...